How can this be balanced?

[Glottis]

Everything is put to the Infils favor. Mid and Hib also suffer from the fact that we don't have a Mincer equallent with stealth, speed, mez, ablative chants, dd shouts, wep skills etc which makes them terribly deadly in stealther duos and makes it more or less impossible for any of Mid/Hibs stealther duos to stand a chance against a Mincer + Infil/Scout. And as I noted above, all alb stealthers have access to a 9 sec stun each, guarenteeing you will be stunned if you come across one. Adds to the annoyance a bit to be honest...

First off, minstrel stun lasts a max of 9s on grey con mobs. On a lvl 50 without resist buffs it lasts 6s. DF is nice on an inf, but slam on a scout is the suck against an sb (its main enemy) Evade 7 anyone?

Anyway, we can keep on going like this. I can provide a whole range of arguments why I feel that minstrels are not uber, etc.
But anyway, balance Alb stealthers right after you balance Mid fighting classes and Hib magic classes.
Regards, Glottis

 

[Czaedes]

True Glottis.

To be fair, perhaps Alb stealthers are the last that has to be changed though to balance RvR. A lot of things has to be done to many other classes. After all, stealthers are a minority and don't impact all that much on RvR as a whole.

However I do think Infils need some balancing, but perhaps as you say that should be done after a lot of other things. I myself ain't that huge fan of infils, but when it all comes around it's only due to 1vs1 or 1vs2 situations. And this as said doesn't really affect RvR as a whole. Even though these encounters do matter, they will come in second hand when there are balance issues in large RvR.

Ah well, enough talking for now
Czae

 

[Czaedes]

Oh and about Minstrels, I don't think they're unbalanced really. Just pointed out that Infils become insanely hard to beat when duoing with a mincer. Although one can not deny that it seems as if Mincers are Mythics love childs at times

I mean c'mon, shouldn't the three classes who spend all their training in the wild (rangers, scouts, hunters) be able to climb a friggin wall or land safely on their feet when they fall down from a small height? Instead a musician/fighter with chain gets both of those abilities. When I hear ranger/hunter/scout I don't picture myself this clumpsy non-nature-adept lad running about hurting just as much as a heavy tank when he from a height equal to that of a tree.

 

[Tareregion]

Well, the difference between an infil and a minstrel is, that a minstrel is quite hard to play. Infils on the other hand are a bit easier, 2.5spec points etc. and all the other stuff, u know them . I played both minstrel and infil, found minstrel way harder, but also way more fun, they have so many utilities.

 

[Glorien]

Look we all know the stealther classes arent balanced but what in this game is? There are many different actions that they could take to try and balance stealther class. Maybe the infil class needs to be looked at but could u please stop constantly whining about it? We all know your objections to it but constantly spamming forums with utterly useless posts just makes ureself look like a fool.

 

[Czaedes]

I don't mind "nerf" threads with decent value that don't just include "NERFf!!!!!11!one!".

A valuable nerf thread is one that has the potential to give ideas of fixes to a class. Without these ideas all the nerfs would be in Mythics hands alone which could turn into quite a mess.
However nerf threads can turn into spam fests, which I don't think this one has yet. So no it's not useless yet. The useless ones will come, and hopefully they will be closed quickly.

Czae

 

[Jaond]

Well, the difference between an infil and a minstrel is, that a minstrel is quite hard to play. Infils on the other hand are a bit easier, 2.5spec points etc. and all the other stuff, u know them . I played both minstrel and infil, found minstrel way harder, but also way more fun, they have so many utilities.

A bit easier?

Spam dragonfang backed up with duelshadow cant be to hard, a friend of mine borowd a infil was the first time ever he played a infil, he lost one fight in 5hours and that to a rr7 ns that used ap and was on 2%hp when he died.

 

[Snakester]

normal backup for Dragonfang is hamstring combo , fully purped buffed, my guildie gorbash can get it in 3 times maybe eb=ven dropping last hit for another df ehehe.

 

[Czaedes]

Doubt you backup DF with Hammie though :touch:
Perhaps you follow up with hammies however

 

[wittor]

A bit easier?

Spam dragonfang backed up with duelshadow cant be to hard, a friend of mine borowd a infil was the first time ever he played a infil, he lost one fight in 5hours and that to a rr7 ns that used ap and was on 2%hp when he died.

aww

 

[Herjulf]

First off, minstrel stun lasts a max of 9s on grey con mobs. On a lvl 50 without resist buffs it lasts 6s. DF is nice on an inf, but slam on a scout is the suck against an sb (its main enemy) Evade 7 anyone?

Anyway, we can keep on going like this. I can provide a whole range of arguments why I feel that minstrels are not uber, etc.
But anyway, balance Alb stealthers right after you balance Mid fighting classes and Hib magic classes.
Regards, Glottis

Glottis your posts.. well i wont go there they just piss me off.

Scout slam have never sucked, they are one of the reasons i avoid attacking scouts with my SB. that and IP.

My main targets with a sb are pallies and casters. i wont even hope to kill a cleric tbh.

for me it may be my spec, critblade.

But that dont stop infiltrators from being able to take out any class ingame.

We had a very nice video posted earlier in this thread, with yrodable.
on one of his killing spree´s.
Shure he shurely put together a movie with his best fights.
But trust me i can never ever get material for anything close to that.

Personally i really hope for a infil nerf (spec points) and a uptune on NS and SB.

well infact a general overhaul on alb classes in particular.
Minstrel especially.
The swiss army knife of daoc.

 

[Glorien]

My main targets with a sb are pallies and casters. i wont even hope to kill a cleric tbh.

How are clerics harder to kill than a paladin?? Hmmm very strange.

 

[Czaedes]

Personally i really hope for a infil nerf (spec points) and a uptune on NS and SB.

I do not beleive the solution is to make Shades and SBs stronger, but rather overhauling the entire idea of what an assasin in daoc is. I personally feel that an assasin should rely a lot more on critical strikes than they do now. However making the PA all too powerfull would perhaps require another nerf to SBs due to their 2H choices.

I do think assasins should be extremely tough opponents if they do get their first stealthed critical strike to land on the target. But at the moment I would almost have to say that all assasins are too powerfull in the way many are played (without the use of PA/BS).

So no I wouldn't like to see an uptone to the NSs/SBs, rather an overlook of what an assasin is supposed to be.

 

[Wmv]

neerf infils so i can come back and have fun again before its time to quit again when toa comes

 

[Arindra]

I thought I said there would be none of this here.

Be fair.

He doesn't actually mention DragonFang by name.

You have to let the poor guy wind down gently, going cold turkey on concerns about mostly irrelevant stealth issues might do him an injury.

Personally I can't imagine a solo infil owning your balanced group, so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

[Iceflower]

>However making the PA all too powerfull would perhaps require another nerf to SBs due to their 2H choices.

Actually, the PA damage cap was nerfed 2 years ago since you could oneshot most casters in those days. But that was before spellcrafting and the mandatory 26% resists everyone has nowadays. The PA cap ought to be adjusted for that fact.

But, the two hander is more of a disadvantage in a fight than an asset. Apart from using it for the CD there really isnt much use for it. The swing time associated with it makes you a very dead sb to most targets that are using their wits. Standing and waiting for 5 secs for the next swing is a very long time and it applies to your onehander too if you change after the PA. To that you only get to use one poison and get your evade rate halved against dual wielders. To add insult to injury the PA cap between one and two handers isnt very large today. An advantage....well if you like selfpunishment maybe...and no sane sb would keep the two hander if offerred 2.5 spec points as a choice...the 50 hps are immaterial in this respect

Small wonder the original critical strike specced sb have almost disappeared and the shadowzerker/5spec tank version took over?

 

[Shangrila]

The thing is:
Infil:
- 2.5 spec points (most in whole game)
- suprior lvl50 style thats not on a chain
- spec af buff available
Mincer:
- access to IP
- best af of all stealthers
- run spd
- mezz stunn 2x dds
- pet
- spec af available

When they "fixed" assassins, the gave the infil more spec points, the SB got more hit, and the NS got the dds. Spec points, and hit points cant be resisted like a dd can, dd is also affected by the strong resists nowadays. The NS insta dd takes more end than a garotte (crit anytime style), it does sucky dmg and might be resisted too.
As a NS you fight against an Infil that got perma AP2 up (spec af buff from cleric) and a uber evade style. You cant fight an Infil if purge is down, if you do so it /rel time in 90% of the fights. If you fight against a mincer, he either runs away with sos if you purge his stunn/mezz, or if your purge is down, he stunns + mezzes you, then sits down uses FA2, fights on, and IPs, he got like 3 lives.
Scouts are ok from my point of few, they do nice dmg and the shield for defending themselfs is ok (NS/SB are hard to slam anyway).
The main problem is that alb stealth groups are pretty much unbeatable, cause they are the only realm that got a CC class that can stealth. 1 fg alb stealthers against 1fg hib stealthers will win most of the time, cause the mincer simply mezzes some of us :-(

 

[Czaedes]

The thing is:
Infil:
- 2.5 spec points (most in whole game)
- suprior lvl50 style thats not on a chain
- spec af buff available
Mincer:
- access to IP
- best af of all stealthers
- run spd
- mezz stunn 2x dds
- pet
- spec af available

How annoying the af buff may seem it surely does not justify any nerfs to other classes. Perhaps putting a range on the af buff just as they did with mids end regen. In fairness, perhaps putting haste buff from druid on range as well? After all, they won't remove bbs in any near future...

 

[gwal]

At rr7 this is the spec i use atm:
50 weapon
44 leftaxe
32 stealth
30 env

A rr7 infil can spec:
50 weapon
50 dualwield
21 critical strike
32 stealth
30 env

So at same rr a infil get acces to pa and 50 in dw while im at 44la and nothing in cs, thats great

Now a liddul fotmgimp goes to emain at rr2 with this spec:
50 thrust
50 dualwield
34 stealth
35 env

So a rr2 infil get's a better spec then a rr7 sb thats really balanced dont you think? Oh but thank you mythic for my 50 extra hp /rude

Nerf 2.5spec points

I´m sure every armsman on the server will cry for u.......

 

[bigmammas]

Is this a nerf dragonfang thread yet? :touch:

 

[Iceflower]

>Is this a nerf dragonfang thread yet?

I hope not, as the Dragonfang isnt the problem. Having to train all the way to 50 should give a powerful style in my opinion. The problem is that 2.5 spec points dont force the infi to make hard choices like the sb has to. They can pick all the cherries from the pie when training atm. Those extra spec points are that powerful.

If the only thing that will happen from the currrent review of the infi is some adjustment of the DF style I would say the sb community turned into the loser again.

 

[Calaen]

^^ Still that doesn't jusity keeping the game unbalanced... In my opinion :/

I am confused about this balance issue. What is meant to be balanced? Each realm should have classes that are somewhat better than another realms classes. What would be the point in having a game where each realm had the same chars with exactly the same damage dont think it would be any good at all.

Now understandably there seems to be alot of issues with the infiltrators ability to spec to 50 in 2 specs without losing one. Which should obviously be looked at and mostly likely will. But everyone knows this game comes round full swing, so why do ppl waste time moaning constantly about something that is gonna change soon enough to their favour?

Cal

 

[Phule_Gubben]

So boring...
I say, if SB's get some loving, scouts should get perma TS for one year.
Just like those lame SB's ran around with perma sprint, unstealthed, and hitting for 400hp per swing, ganking iping tanks...
Yawn, shut up, take it in the ass, and wait your turn to be uber again.
Infs are fine, ns are fine, sb's are slightly underpowered. But you gimps whine so much, you want people to think that SB's are gimped.
You had your fun, you now have a little less fun. Big deal. Go roll a savage...
Regards, Glottis

Rofl...

Hiya Glottis

Keep the tradition goin bud.

 

[Phule_Gubben]

How annoying the af buff may seem it surely does not justify any nerfs to other classes. Perhaps putting a range on the af buff just as they did with mids end regen. In fairness, perhaps putting haste buff from druid on range as well? After all, they won't remove bbs in any near future...

I do agree to that, well said mate.

 

[Iceflower]

>Now understandably there seems to be alot of issues with the infiltrators ability to spec to 50 in 2 specs without losing one. Which should obviously be looked at and mostly likely will. But everyone knows this game comes round full swing, so why do ppl waste time moaning constantly about something that is gonna change soon enough to their favour?

Mythic has, unfortunately, proven that moaning is a very good strategy to get a class' advantages reduced though their previous actions. The bad thing is that they favour using the sledgehammer when making those adjustments even when a small jewelry hammer would be a better tool.

Getting improvements is very difficult. For example, look at the hunter, a class Mythic themselves have stated is broken a long time ago. They have done nothing to address the major weaknesses even though the hunter community have give ample of ideas to help them get the ball rolling.

Moaning is part of the American way of customer support I guess and probably here to stay.

 

[rvn]

.

well biggest issue is 100% str based weapons and the duration of df ;p

 

[Tharion]

I want speed-get-away buff and dualwield on my scout instead of shield.
Bla bla bla....

 

[Gordonax]

If you fight against a mincer, he either runs away with sos if you purge his stunn/mezz, or if your purge is down, he stunns + mezzes you, then sits down uses FA2, fights on, and IPs, he got like 3 lives.

If he's got SoS, purge and IP, he's at least RR4 and a bit (can't remember the exact numbers), and he's just used three expensive RAs to win a single fight. He'll also be dead meat for the next 30 mins, while those RAs return. It doesn't sound overpowered to me if you're having to use two or three RAs, all of which cost over 10pts, to win a fight.

 

[Auriel]

http://vnboards.ign.com/Bedevere/b20662/61765996/?0
watch this.

i just stoped whining about infils, i know its hard, but they are going to be nerfed hard, and everyone has realised now

Greatd vid The finale says it all!

:edit: The style review is what we're all waiting for now. With a bit of luck DF will be changed to a bleed style and DS will be put in a chain. Celtic Dual might even have some nice styles past 18 spec! =)

 

[Hubix]

its balanced majts!