Honk if Enchanter needs a nerf

[mustrum]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)


Well then... if the magic realm shouldn't be allowed to have good casters - how about nerf armsmen?
Bloody plate armor, my warden has the hardest time doing good damage against your tinmen! Nerf it - it's an unfair advantage!

How about we nerf Infiltrators?
My Nightshade gets 2.2 spec points/level ... and a hilariously crappy DD - and Infils get 2.5 points/level and a crossbow!!
I want 2.5/L and a short bow!!

Or lets nerf Sorcerors! Speed, DoT, pet, mez, ae mez.....

Cut out the stupid whining... the game IS balanced for the most part.


That's what it's all about.

Stop with this damn "Hibernia is the magic realm" excuse (yes it is a very poor excuse and nothing more... maybe hib was intended early on in the stages of the game to be more magically orientated, this dosent mean that any of their casters should be hands down better than any other class in any other realm). Hibernia tanks and ANY hib class is just as good as any other realms classes. Are you trying to say hib tanks are not as good as other realms? Or their support classes?

You could go and say "oh but our nightshades suck".... no, they don't. Trad is just as ewul as Azal is. Might not crit as hard because he hasnt got 2h but he can kill most people easy enough. It seems that just not enough people play nightshades because they are weak early on.

Even if a hib class was particularly bad, then it needs evening out and is in no way a reason for another hib class to be better, else all people on hib may as well play the better classes.

If hib is magic realm what are alb and mid realms btw? Would be interested to know.

Sorcs dont nuke for over 500 damage. If they did along with their other spells then. WoW

But they don't. Lucky to nuke for 250 in RvR with a sorc.

An so you know. Sorc is being nerfed. Aoe mezz reduction. Pet level cap.

The old nerf assasins cry. Don't diss a nightshade till you have fought against one. (A good one at least) Which you evidently havent.

Warden is not made for damage afaik. No more than a minstrel is. Only advantage minst has for dmg is the dd shouts. Otherwise i think you hit for about the same amount.

Also for teador - You can compare how many spells each pet class has all you want. Just because a class has more spells it dosent mean they are a) all useful b) all useable at once.

A uber class just needs a few uber spells. -Enchanter.

And everything is balanced?

http://www.camelot-seer.com/handler.cfm?app=realms&method=pop5

http://www.camelot-seer.com/handler.cfm?app=realms&method=rp5

Hmmmmmm.
See a pattern?

 

[mustrum]

Originally posted by dakeyras
The calls for enchanter nerfs are, I feel, a bit premature. Most complaints are about pbaoe in the lord room. Like most players I hate having to try storming a keep knowing that there are pbaoe casters in the Lord Room...but that will change.

What is happening atm on the US servers is very different from here. Here, a common tactic is to take an enemy keep, upgrade gates and guards, sit tight and farm the rp's. Defenders have all the aces. In the US version it is the defenders that are farmed. There is absolutely no point in trying to defend a keep. The way to deal with pbaoe casters camped in the lord room is simple. Bust down the doors and use gtaoe from the courtyard. Never again will we have to run up into a pbaoe farm

Once players stop dying in droves to pbaoe then the nerf calls will ease.

On a separate note...comments have been made regarding cast times, baseline stun etc, etc, etc. The Hibbies argue that the reasoning behind their 'uber' casters is that they are the 'magical' realm.

Hmmm

How, then, can the 'magical' realm also have the best pure tank and the best hybrid tank?

If that argument is to be valid then Midgard needs some changes to truly make us the 'melee' realm.

1. Give Warriors a 50% insta-heal granted by their God.
2. Give Thanes more Hits, more damage and fix Stormcalling
3. Give Warriors and Thanes access to a new armour type such as reinforced chain with a higher abs.
4. Fix Midgard 2handers to have the same dmg table as Albion and Hibernia.
5. Give Skalds 1.7 spec

Give Midgard this and I will accept the 'magical' realm argument.

So if hib is caster realm and Mid is tank realm whats alb ..... support realm ? (oops clerics just getting nerfed)

 

[mustrum]

Originally posted by rynnor


a - if they spec for best nuke their pbaoe will be gimped.
b- the forthcoming SM PBAOE is superior to any other realms.
c - the underhill pets are good - I especially like the healer one for groups and agree a ranged attack on a pet is much better in rvr.

Anyone who has gone pure mana deserves the realm points they get now since they are so reliant on being in the Lords room - once the GTAOE comes in many will lose interest in the class for rvr - still rocks pve tho

Think the three realms pet classes are pretty well balanced (as good as theyll get without giving em all exactly the same stuff - note - please dont do this

Read the thread before posting, long as it is. If you havent noticed, from the screenshots. Enchanter baseline nuke is the one doing the massive damage. Due to the heat debuff they get on pbaoe spec line. Double Whammy!

And yes the mid PBaoe should be better, but firstly they havent had it for ages so makes up for it a bit Secondly the amount of SMs on most servers is very, very small compared to the amount of pbaoe 'chanters.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

How about we move this thread here, you nerf-crying babies?

This is honestly getting ridiculous.

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

Originally posted by old.Teador
Let's compare some stuff:

Cabalist:

-Body
Drain Life
Root
Hinder STR Shout

-Essence Manipulation (Body Specialization)
Drain Life
Hinder Attack Speed Shout
Disease
Transfer Health
Disease [AE]

-Matter
Damage over Time
Hinder DEX Shout

-Matter Manipulation (Matter Specialization)
Damage Shield [Pet]
Damage over Time
Nearsight
Damage over Time [AE]

-Spirit Animation
Summon Ally [Self]
Buff STR [Pet]
Buff DEX [Pet]
Heal [Pet]

-Vivification (Spirit Animation Specialization)
Buff Melee Dmg [Pet]
Buff Melee Speed [Pet]
Dismiss Pet for Power [Pet]
Buff CON & Buff STR [Pet]
Buff DEX & Buff QUI [Pet]
Hinder Body Resist
Hinder Spirit Resist
Hinder Energy Resist
Snare
Snare [AE]


Spiritmaster:

-Darkness
Direct Damage
Hinder DEX Shout

-Spirit Dimming (Darkness Specialization)
Drain Life
Mesmerize [PB] [AE]
Hinder DEX & Hinder QUI Shout [AE]
Mesmerize [AE]
Hinder Body Resist
Hinder Spirit Resist
Hinder Energy Resist

-Suppression
Hinder STR Shout
Root

-Spirit Suppression (Suppression Specialization)
Mesmerize
Hinder CON & Hinder STR Shout [AE]
Hinder Attack Speed Shout
Direct Damage [PB] [AE]
Transfer Health
Remove Mezmerize

-Summoning
Summon Ally [Self]
Heal [Pet]

-Spirit Enhancement (Summoning Specialization)
Buff DEX [Pet]
Damage Shield [Pet]
Buff STR [Pet]
Damage Shield [Self]
Resurrect


Enchanter:

-Way of the Moon
Damage Shield

-Empowering (Way of the Moon Specialization)
Damage Shield [Pet]
Direct Damage [PB] [AE]
Hinder Heat Resist
Hinder Cold Resist
Hinder Matter Resist

-Way of the Sun
Direct Damage
Stun

-Bedazzling (Way of the Sun Specialization)
Direct Damage
Hinder Attack Speed Shout
Hinder Attack Speed
Hinder Attack Speed Shout [AE]

-Enchantment
Summon Ally [Self]
Buff Movement [Group] [C]
Heal [Pet]

-Enchantment Mastery (Enchantment Specialization)
Buff DEX & Buff QUI [Pet]
Buff STR [Pet]
Buff Melee Dmg

----------------------------------------

Now let's make this some more clear, basically, the base spells for each class are:

(I'm leaving out the base spells every class has, such as summon/heal pet and AF shields)

Cabalist:
Drain Life
Hinder STR Shout
Hinder DEX Shout
Root
Damage over Time
Buff STR [Pet]
Buff DEX [Pet]

Spiritmaster:
Direct Damage
Hinder STR Shout
Hinder DEX Shout
Root

Enchanter:
Direct Damage
Stun
Damage Shield
Buff Movement [Group] [C]

As you can see, Cabalist has the same spells as the spiritmaster, but a DoT, Pet buffs, and a Lifedrain instead of a DD. Enchanter is totally different, DD, Stun, speed buff is the only useful stuff. Lifedrain is at first better than DD, and Stun and speed, well, i think the spells the Cabalist and Spiritmaster have instead of these are as good. Having base pet buffs are nice too, i've been in plenty of situations where my pet was too weak, but it hink that's just because i chose to spec low enchantments on my Enchanter.

Let's compare some specs:

Cabalist:
-Essence Manipulation (Body Specialization)
Drain Life
Hinder Attack Speed Shout
Disease
Transfer Health
Disease [AE]

-Matter Manipulation (Matter Specialization)
Damage Shield [Pet]
Damage over Time
Nearsight
Damage over Time [AE]

-Vivification (Spirit Animation Specialization)
Buff Melee Dmg [Pet]
Buff Melee Speed [Pet]
Dismiss Pet for Power [Pet]
Buff CON & Buff STR [Pet]
Buff DEX & Buff QUI [Pet]
Hinder Body Resist
Hinder Spirit Resist
Hinder Energy Resist
Snare
Snare [AE]


Spiritmaster:
-Spirit Dimming (Darkness Specialization)
Drain Life
Mesmerize [PB] [AE]
Hinder DEX & Hinder QUI Shout [AE]
Mesmerize [AE]
Hinder Body Resist
Hinder Spirit Resist
Hinder Energy Resist

-Spirit Suppression (Suppression Specialization)
Mesmerize
Hinder CON & Hinder STR Shout [AE]
Hinder Attack Speed Shout
Direct Damage [PB] [AE]
Transfer Health
Remove Mezmerize

-Spirit Enhancement (Summoning Specialization)
Buff DEX [Pet]
Damage Shield [Pet]
Buff STR [Pet]
Damage Shield [Self]
Resurrect


Enchanter:
-Empowering (Way of the Moon Specialization)
Damage Shield [Pet]
Direct Damage [PB] [AE]
Hinder Heat Resist
Hinder Cold Resist
Hinder Matter Resist

-Bedazzling (Way of the Sun Specialization)
Direct Damage
Hinder Attack Speed Shout
Hinder Attack Speed
Hinder Attack Speed Shout [AE]

-Enchantment Mastery (Enchantment Specialization)
Buff DEX & Buff QUI [Pet]
Buff STR [Pet]
Buff Melee Dmg

Let's sum some things up:

Cabalist has the BEST pet spec line, 4 extra pet buffs, resist debuffs, Snare and AE snare. Drain life is good, as is AE Disease. Yes, Disease is VERY useful. It has killed me plenty of times, most of the times while defending a keep, and you can't regen any health for 3 minutes. Very annoying and quite good. And I would exchange DD for lifedrain any day. Basically this class can have the strongest pet in the game. Especially with the Juggernaught RA. You could spec 46 Spirit 28 Body, 50% debuff for your lifedrain, that means quite some damage too, but i don't know anyone who ever tested this spec. Cabalist is basically the worst Direct Damage dealer, best pet dude, and has DoT/Nearsight too.

Spiritmaster has some good CC. AE mez and PBAE mez. The pet spec line seems pretty useless. The only real useful spell is the resurrect. Drain life AND AE mezz in 1 SPEC LINE. You could basically use MoC, PBAE mezz everyone around you, and start lifedrain. You won't die as long as the MoC is working. The only useful spells are the PBAE (actually very useful), remove mezz, mezz, and STR/CON debuff shout (very useful too, can instantly root any caster until he's dead) Spiritmaster has Evil Lifedrain, AE mezz and PBAE mezz in 1 spec line. That's very nasty.

Enchanter has the worst pet spec line of all. 2 pet buffs and a damage buff. Worst pet means a boost for the damage. Speccing Sun only gives you a useful nuke, very low powerdrain and good damage, fast casts too. AE attack speed shout can be good too for hibs, especially since Hibs have a lot of Wardens which all have 6 sec pbt. Mana has 2 useful spells, the PBAE and the Heat debuff. If you spec mana you have 2 powerful damage spells, PBAE and a single target nuke. It takes a debuff first before you can do good damage, so at least 3 seconds for your first nuke. Remember that this can be purged too as well as resisted. So it could take quite some time before you can actually do any damage, or the target has walked out of your range. Enchanter is the only pet class without Lifedrain, but the good damage on the spells makes up for it. No CC, except for stun. This means you will have to cooperate with other people a lot, or you can't do shit. Enchanter has the best damage of the pet classes, but the worst pet and least utility spells (nearsight/disease/debuffs)

------------------------------

In the end i think it's all quite balanced, Cabalist can nearsight the SM/Enchanter leaving those quite useless. Spiritmaster can mezz + lifedrain a Cabalist/Enchanter. Enchanter can take a Cabalist/SM out fast if they get the chance to, otherwise the SM/Cabalist kills him.

Spit your comments about this. But i think this game is balanced.

Basically what you are doing here is taking the spec line that we aren't questioning, i.e. the summoning ones, and making it an argument about them. We aren't discussing the summoning lines, everyone knows that either of the pet classes speccing in these lines will gimp themseleves. What we are discussing is how overpowered manachanters are, not the ones that spec in enchantments (do enchanting enchanters actually exist?).

In a battle between ANY caster it goes down to who casts first, since they interrupt first, etc. Its what they can do with tanks that make a difference. Also, you have listed the debuffs as shouts, this is so in 1.51, but in 1.52 they are castable again, so we never get them as shouts.

Enchanter has the best damage of the pet classes, but the worst pet and least utility spells (nearsight/disease/debuffs)

Enchanters have the best damage of ANY class, as well as speed and 9 second stun.

 

[j000 d000d]

Did you really have to quote that?

And wouldn't it be boring if every caster was the same?

And I'm actually thinking of respeccing to light, Debuff + nuke = 500 damage, but 2 casts, with light i can cast 2 nukes in that time, total of 800 damage.

So if it comes to who does most damage in less time, it's not manachanter.

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

Did you really have to quote that?

Not really, but i'm pretty much a n00b to the forums and don't know how to work them yet ><

 

[Eleasias]

enchanters need a nerf ^^ only ones saying they aint uber are themselves

 

[Power of Light]

""Ever been nuked by a cabalist or a spiritmaster?""

Yes been nuked by an spiritmaster for 470 damage and after he nuked he had full health again the basterd.

I am a light specced enchanter and have mine 26th lvl pbaoe spell and that spell can do up to 400 damage in a keep defence
Why go pure mana if I can spamm little pbaoe's for little mana cost? and have powerfull heat nukes.

And btw dont forget my super attack speed decrease!!!

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by Power of Light
""Ever been nuked by a cabalist or a spiritmaster?""

Yes been nuked by an spiritmaster for 470 damage and after he nuked he had full health again the basterd.

I am a light specced enchanter and have mine 26th lvl pbaoe spell and that spell can do up to 400 damage in a keep defence
Why go pure mana if I can spamm little pbaoe's for little mana cost? and have powerfull heat nukes.

And btw dont forget my super attack speed decrease!!!

Light Enchanter myself, here (39 now) - may I ask what your l50 template is?

Was thinking about dropping Enchantment Mastery to a minimum once respecc is possible - going for high light and an ok mana spec.

Thanks in advance

 

[Happlo]

Originally posted by mustrum


And yes the mid PBaoe should be better, but firstly they havent had it for ages so makes up for it a bit Secondly the amount of SMs on most servers is very, very small compared to the amount of pbaoe 'chanters.

And who's fault is that? Its not Hibs fault there's more mana enchanters than Ice Wizards so thats a very poor argument, and SM's WILL get PBaoe so then it will be equal

 

[Happlo]

Originally posted by Eleasias
enchanters need a nerf ^^ only ones saying they aint uber are themselves

And I dont have an Enchanter and dont think they need a nerf

 

[mustrum]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)
How about we move this thread here, you nerf-crying babies?

This is honestly getting ridiculous.

a) you are an enchanter i don't expect you to be happy.
b) i guess you don't like being proved wrong.
c) This is an RvR issue
d) Throwing insults is a pretty strong sign of losing an argument

 

[mustrum]

Originally posted by gilthanis



And who's fault is that? Its not Hibs fault there's more mana enchanters than Ice Wizards so thats a very poor argument, and SM's WILL get PBaoe so then it will be equal

Ice wiz is a good class. But nuking power leaves much to be wished for

'Chanters nuke harder than firewiz and pbaoe harder than icewiz.

Figure it out yourself.

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by mustrum


a) you are an enchanter i don't expect you to be happy.
b) i guess you don't like being proved wrong.
c) This is an RvR issue
d) Throwing insults is a pretty strong sign of losing an argument

Throwing insults? You haven't seen me throwing insults yet, you rather pathetic cry baby...
I am not arguing with you - haven't seen you post anything constructive regarding Teador's or Vid's posts.
So what is there to argue about with you?

We had "nerf xxx" threads for nearly every class there is -
for awhile Thanes were overpowered (supposedly)then Minstrels
and now Enchanters...

There are a few players who play their class well and make said class look good or even superior, sparking the creation of a thousand supposedly-uber-class wannabes - and an explosion of "nerf class xxx" on the boards.

Who is the highest rp holder on Prydwen? Usp? Teador? Zedorf?
No, it's Coren - a minstrel. Nerf Minstrels then, eh?

RvR issue or not - it's a silly whine.
How do you say?
Ah... 'someone got owned'

If I honk, will you shut finally?

 

[Dook_Pug]

Enchanters are Hibs primary pet class. They nuke for harder than ANY spec nuker. Coupled with stun this makes them deadly.

On open ground they use this nuking ability along with a pet that ignores LoS to take down any caster in 2 DDs (I'm a Dwarf Runie with capped con and I go down in two nukes, 3 if I'm lucky).

This is BS.

Chanters spec one line. Mana. With this they get PBAoE and the ability to debuff their baseline nukes. Along with this they get a pet that ignores LoS and baseline stun. This may not seem like much on paper.

What this means is that Chanters spec one line to get a specific ability (namely PBAoE), they then also get the ability to outdamage any spec nuker. They can do this while their buggy pet is nuking AND their target is stunned.

The argument that Runies can do this sort of damage has been put forward. I admit that this is infact a possibility with the option of going 47 RC, 26 Dark. Thus being able to debuff AND nuke using our baseline dark nukes.

But Runies are Midgards primary caster class, they're not a pet class, and by doing so they forgoe the possibility of Nearsight, PBT, group BT and give themselves a primary specline that is considered one of the most gimped of all the caster speclines.

Teadors [long] post is irrelevant. It does not change the fact that Chanters pwn any other caster hands down.

 

[robillard]

ok uncle sick

lets see now
how long had coren played in alb to get his rp?
how long had teador played in Hib to get his rp?

work it out gimp

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Originally posted by robillard
ok uncle sick

lets see now
how long had coren played in alb to get his rp?
how long had teador played in Hib to get his rp?

work it out gimp

It was an example, wrapped in sarcasm, dimwit.

Now do me a favor and gently fuck off...

 

[mustrum]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)


We had "nerf xxx" threads for nearly every class there is -
for awhile Thanes were overpowered (supposedly)then Minstrels
and now Enchanters...

Who is the highest rp holder on Prydwen? Usp? Teador? Zedorf?
No, it's Coren - a minstrel. Nerf Minstrels then, eh?

If I honk, will you shut finally?

Put you insults in some other forum, where people care about them.
And as Robillard so rightly pointed out, coren want to post a screenie of ur played time here ? And Teador.

Both are good players, but RP is for the most part based on how much time you spend in RvR. Simply because no matter how good you are if you are outzerged then you will probably get very little RP.

Enchanter wont turn the tide of battle by any large means but its significantly more powerful than any other class. Which is why it should be tuned down/nerfed however you want to put it.

Can argue forever about RP showing how good a class is, but the basic fact as i said before is an enchanter is a firewiz and icewiz rolled into one. And enhanced. (ok it dosent have bolts or a snare nuke, or an aoe dd. But bolts suck, except on caster classes. The most used spells by fire and icewiz i think are nukes, and pbaoe. Bolts/aoedd more of a utility... until albion gets some kind of aoe stun, where aoe dd can be used more tactically)

 

[Power of Light]

""Light Enchanter myself, here (39 now) - may I ask what your l50 template is?

Was thinking about dropping Enchantment Mastery to a minimum once respecc is possible - going for high light and an ok mana spec.

Thanks in advance""

My template is 45 light for the best nuke and 26 mana for the lvl 26 pbaoe that's still doing great damage and lvl 24? heat debuff.
The rest I have pumped into enchantments for pet buffing.

 

[robillard]

my apologies for calling you a gimp uncle sick

I imagine you are able bodied so this insult is unfounded
(If you do in RL have some gimpy limb I also apologise for hurting your feelings)

However I believe the sensible content of my post holds true

 

[Uncle Sick(tm)]

Teador is a bad example anyway... he is playing 24/7 and needs professional help.

Robillard - fine, lets forget about it. Just hate it when people make fun of my peg leg. Hehe


*unsubscribes this pointless thread*

 

[robillard]

I shouldnt even be on the damn boards........

Must finish Physics report

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by Uncle Sick(tm)
Teador is a bad example anyway... he is playing 24/7 and needs professional help.

I was a good killer as a wizard too...... even some people wanted to nerf my fire wizzie

 

[mustrum]

Originally posted by old.Teador


I was a good killer as a wizard too...... even some people wanted to nerf my fire wizzie

When ur wiz was 50, most people in RvR were mid 40s. Makes a pretty big diff. And I dont think you were outdamaging runies, or eldritch even then.

WHat is ur played time out of interest. Since my wiz is on 44 days for RR4 L7. (even at this RR enchanters with 0 RP own me )

 

[old.SadonTheGrey]

Nerf the l337 ppl

 

[robillard]

actually teador wasnt 50 untill there were loads of other 50's on the server, as i remember he was 49 for a hell of a long time and rvring

 

[j000 d000d]

Originally posted by robillard
actually teador wasnt 50 untill there were loads of other 50's on the server, as i remember he was 49 for a hell of a long time and rvring

Exactly

I got 50 at like 30 days played, total in the end was liek 50 days.

And it was my 4th char

 

[robillard]

I know a lot of people seem to dislike the chap, but he always seemed a decent sort to me

 

[Dook_Pug]

Teador is a nice chap and I'd be the first to admit he plays his char excellently. Still doesn't change the fact that it's grossly overpowered.