Harold Shipman

[Flesh]

If they had just hanged him in the first place we would have saved even more

Capital punishment for murderers and rapists!

I aglee Neeabusaurus!

 

[Psi]

He was due to sign up for the prison boxing team in a few weeks as well...

apparently he has a lethal jab

I really shouldn't laugh...

 

[Loxleyhood]

Capital punishment is not an option. Doing it only makes us as bad as people such as Shipman and it cuts out any chance of possible retribution the condemned may acheive within his natural lifespan and of course it's more than possible that an innocent man will be executed. However, if Shipman wanted to take his own life I'm sure they'll be few people who'll regret his passing.

 

[Sissyfoo]

Why does it make us as bad as a mass murderer? Removing a vicious criminal from society permanently is nothing like someone who rapes, tortures and kills people for pleasure/sense of power/pure malicious intent. It isn't even remotely comparable.

 

[Loxleyhood]

Killing another person is the greastest wrong regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Sissyfoo]

So if someone wasted your entire family you would be perfectly content to let him sit in a prison cell for the rest of his life whilst you paid for him to have munchies, tv, books, exercise equipment and a chance at a better education than most normal people can afford (I think I am right about that...could be wrong though)?

 

[Loxleyhood]

What I would want is for to spend his entire life in a room with only food and a toilet.

 

[Sissyfoo]

So you would prefer to torture someone through total isolation and risk them going totally insane as opposed to a quick death? How does that make you better than the murderers?

 

[Loxleyhood]

If he took a life he should not be entitled to actually living out his, but killing a man is immoral and could lead to horrible mistakes.

 

[Sissyfoo]

If he took a life he should not be entitled to actually living out his, but killing a man is immoral and could lead to horrible mistakes.

How can you say that leaving a man in a small cell with no human contact which would result in moderate to massive psychological damage is any more moral than giving him a lethal injection? If anything it is worse. Animal rights activists have even managed to have laws brought about that make this type of treatment ILLEGAL with animals so how can it be moral to do it to humans?

 

[Loxleyhood]

It may not be right, but you asked what I would want to happen to a man that killed my family.

 

[yaruar]

You missunderstand me. Im not calling for a "willy nilly" approach. But, especially in circumstances as i mentioned earlier, why should society be burdened with having to baby sit these "people". I for one dont feel that my taxes should go towards providing child killers with sky TV and Gamecubes.
These people will never get out, they will never be "reformed".
And i would like to point out, that unless you have had a family member murdered you can never really understand what its like to be a victim. Its not just the people they kill, they kill the families too.

But who says they can't be reformed?

And surely by killing them you are no better than a murderer yourself.

As for the family member business the reason I'm interested in the shipman case is because of an article my girlfriend wrote recently.
to quote
"My grandfather, as some of you know, was brutally murdered when I was 21. As the murderer was never caught and there was no apparent motive, I will never know why this happened but the question has never plagued me, nor has it in memory ever been mentioned by my mother or grandmother. We all grieved, but none of us obsessed over the murderer and I believe that all of us are better for it."

Although her perspective is somewhat different from most europeans coming from south africa where it's more than likely in your lifetime someone you know will be murdered. To put things into perspective she has also had a brother permantly brain damaged after being shot in the face and her grandmother brutally gang raped at the age of 60.

 

[Ele]

owwww Well I'm perhaps guilty of feeling hate for people who hurt the ones I love not just physically but emotionally, not sure I could be quite so controlled in that situation. I see them upset or in pain, I get angry.

I think a lot of the opinions are based on the society and conditions we ourselves are brought up in, especially comparing my opinions to that of your girlfriends it becomes clear that different attitudes are bred depending on the area/culture and people we surround ourselves with. In my opinion, none of the views on here are wrong, it all depends on circumstance and what you yourself have experienced as to what you believe is right.

 

[yaruar]

owwww Well I'm perhaps guilty of feeling hate for people who hurt the ones I love not just physically but emotionally, not sure I could be quite so controlled in that situation. I see them upset or in pain, I get angry.

I think one of the problems in the situation is that hate/anger/etc can destroy your life if you allow it to. In our culture especially there is little real exposure to death and suffering so we don't know how to deal with it properly.

It was interesting to see that 2.5 million pounds are being given to the families of shipmans victims. Which IMO is a total waste of money (although not as bad as the billions being claimed by the victims of the ferry crash in nyc......

 

[Blondy]

So if someone wasted your entire family you would be perfectly content to let him sit in a prison cell for the rest of his life whilst you paid for him to have munchies, tv, books, exercise equipment and a chance at a better education than most normal people can afford (I think I am right about that...could be wrong though)?

Well I agree yep, but when you say better education/tv/books/exercise...not what he had he had 24hour lockup, 24/7 staring at walls no nothing etc, he might of had a book.

 

[Job]

In the infinite immensity of time, and the infinite randomness of the Universe, you have 1 chance, just 1 chance at life, it is very brief and very fragile, to decide in this 1 chance in all eternity that it would be a good idea to deny another person this 1 chance ,is the most hideous act any person can ever stoop too, to kill is to remove yourself from all the rights reserved for sentient beings who have the decency and humanity not to follow that course.
YOU KILL, YOU DIE, it's simple, clean, pure and final.

It removes hatred, feelings of injustice and negates revenge.

It should be the de-facto policy of the human race.

Difficult at first, but soon we would accept it and then have a much, much greater respect for each other.

 

[yaruar]

In the infinite immensity of time, and the infinite randomness of the Universe, you have 1 chance, just 1 chance at life, it is very brief and very fragile, to decide in this 1 chance in all eternity that it would be a good idea to deny another person this 1 chance ,is the most hideous act any person can ever stoop too, to kill is to remove yourself from all the rights reserved for sentient beings who have the decency and humanity not to follow that course.
YOU KILL, YOU DIE, it's simple, clean, pure and final.

It removes hatred, feelings of injustice and negates revenge.

It should be the de-facto policy of the human race.

Difficult at first, but soon we would accept it and then have a much, much greater respect for each other.

The flaws in your argument are massive. Firstly revenge never works, revenge is why we have spirals of violence both intra internationally.
Secondly if killing someone is the most hidoeus act someone can commit then how can you kill that person in turn.

And where does this leave self defence, negligence and the greatest mass murder, war.....

 

[Alkoran]

In the infinite immensity of time, and the infinite randomness of the Universe, you have 1 chance, just 1 chance at life, it is very brief and very fragile, to decide in this 1 chance in all eternity that it would be a good idea to deny another person this 1 chance ,is the most hideous act any person can ever stoop too, to kill is to remove yourself from all the rights reserved for sentient beings who have the decency and humanity not to follow that course.
YOU KILL, YOU DIE, it's simple, clean, pure and final.

It removes hatred, feelings of injustice and negates revenge.

It should be the de-facto policy of the human race.

Difficult at first, but soon we would accept it and then have a much, much greater respect for each other.

No matter how damning the evidence you can never be entirely certain. Once a death sentence is enacted it cannot be repealed.

Also, who should kill those who kill?

 

[Blondy]

If you have actually admited to the crime you have commited & all evidence is pointed against your case, thats damning enough, Job have you quoted that from the bible or somthing?

 

[Alkoran]

If you have actually admited to the crime you have commited & all evidence is pointed against your case, thats damning enough, Job have you quoted that from the bible or somthing?

Many people have confessed to crimes they didn't commit.

 

[Blondy]

Aye, to get a lesser sentance beause they where going to be found guilty what ever the weather, oh well i'm wrong

 

[yaruar]

Aye, to get a lesser sentance beause they where going to be found guilty what ever the weather, oh well i'm wrong

also due to psychological problems, police intimidation, and other assorted reasons. It's rarely clean cut.

 

[Blondy]

Ok suppose your right

 

[Karam_Gruul]

the thing with shipman is.. he wasnt a BAD murderer tho was he. really?

i know killing people is considered bad most of the time, but he aint like a proper fucked up killer, that like stabs children to death then hangs them by they're testicles from crosses while drinking cow seamen. he sort of.. nicely killed them if you get my meaning.. he wasnt uber brutal or anything

but yea, he prolly deserved to die.

/flex

 

[Loxleyhood]

He preyed on the old and the sick.

 

[Karam_Gruul]

He preyed on the old and the sick.

but if he prayed on the old and the sick.. then stabbed them with pencils or something then yea, he'd be a right twisted nutter. but he just gave them an injection.. i know killing is killing etc, but he coulda been alot worse imho

 

[Karam_Gruul]

im not saying he wasnt a twisted bastard.. and he didnt deserve what he got etc.. im just saying.... i dont think he was one of the more 'fucked up' killers i've seen. he's kinda boring

 

[punchy]

Lol Sissyfoo, how did he kill most of the bodies? jack the ripper style or lethal injection or whatever?

Massive doses of diamorphine. They went with smiles on their faces. Shipman made a ligature from his belt and tied himself to the bars on his window. He probably went with a blackened tongue and poo in his trousers. Life can be poetic sometimes.

/ponder

 

[Blondy]

I've cclearly started a ugly debate off, yes, if we killed a murderer we are as bad as them, but we have a reason to do it, maybe the murderer had a reason, some little pitty crap 'oh i want you pention' - murdering is one of the herendous (late i cant spell atm) actions huma's can do