Graphics card dilemma

[Bodhi]

Right my pretties, I'm going to be in a position to get myself a new graphics card next week. Unlike most of you I'm not after the latest features, I just want something faster than my b0rken 9800 Pro. I've got a budget of up to around 120 notes to spend on my PC, I'd rather not spunk it all on a graphics card, mainly as I've got a Pentium 4 2.8Ghz, so anything too high-tech will just be wasted. I can't afford new motherboards and tings, so I'm going to stick with what I have for now. I can always slot a faster P4 in at a later date. Anyway I have some criteria

- Must be AGP.
- Must be a Radeon.
- Must have TV-Out
- Must be an upgrade on a 9800 Pro.
- Must be avalible from OcUK, so I can go pick it up.

So I'm looking at these

Components » Graphics and Video » ATI AGP - Overclockers UK

Now I'm leaning towards the 512Mb 2600 Pro but there are a couple of things I'm not sure of. i.e.
1) Is it worth getting the 2600 XT with GDDR3 (albeit half as much) for an extra 15 notes or will the Pro be fast enough?
2) How does the X1650 Pro compare?

I should point out the most complicated game this will have to run for now is CnC 3, although if it can manage UT3 that'll be a bonus.

 

[Kryten]

The 1650 is generally recognised as the best budget board for AGP (and that includes nVidia). I've no experience of them personally, as you know I'm not particularly an ATI fan - but a google around shows they don't cope too well with UT3 so far.
The 2600 seems to be a very different story but it's a big chunk out of your budget - but it is proof that the one thing ATI are doing right is keeping the older standard usable even with todays demands - AGP isn't all as bad as the likes of nVidia would have you believe.

If you can really stretch to that 2600XT, I'd say do it - can't see it being a dissapointment. Theres certainly nothing else that's really going to match it for an AGP system. A google around for that +UT3 shows a couple of youtube vids, albeit running on a core2duo system and it doesnt look too shabby.
CNC3 wont be an issue - it ran well on my nvidia 7900GS (pci) and the 2600 AGP is same level performance wise.

 

[Bodhi]

Excellent cheers Kryt. In addition to the GFX I'm also after a wireless cable router and a cordless desktop, I should be able to fit them into the budget along with a 2600XT I reckon.

Ooooh quick mainboard question. I've got at Abit IS7-II (I think) with the 865PE chipset on it. Will this support the 3.4Ghz P4 with HyperThreading? In fact, how high can I go without swapping mainboards? Cos they keep popping up on ebay for around 45 bucks, I'm think it might be a cheap yet useful upgrade.

 

[Kryten]

I think that's the highest it'll go - the board is about as far as specs go on the socket 478 P4's as is the 3.4ghz processor you mentioned.
THe board officially takes up to 800mhz bus speed processors with HT, which the 3.4 does, so it'll be as far as you can take it - should work np.

Had a scout around ebay myself recently (selling a few server parts and graphics cards) and finding a fair few motherboard and processor combinations going for between 50 and 70 though - but when you've already got ram and graphics card that's yet another expense that's not really worth the hassle.

But they're still not bad performers - that system should last you a while yet.

 

[Bodhi]

Ah excellent. To be honest I'm not noticing a major lack of power with my 2.8, I just think I might with UT3. It ran CnC3 and everything else I wanted it to on a 9800 Pro, with that 2600XT I should be back in business for a while til I have 50 quid going spare and no PS3's on the horizon

Thanks again dude.

 

[Bodhi]

Ace. Just priced it all up, got a 2600 XT, MS Wireless Desktop and a Belkin cable router all for a fiver over budget. I'm going to be a busy boy on Monday night.

 

[Kryten]

Bonus, not a bad buy then

 

[Bodhi]

I'm posting this on my 2600 XT! Card went in a treat as you'd expect, couldn't get it to accept the latest ATi drivers though. I'm using the ones off the CD for now (they were the same version as the ones I had installed), I'll try and get version 8.1 on later. I bust the budget a bit as the MS keyboard in the desktop set wasn't a natural one, so I went for the Logitech Wave desktop instead. Which also seems to be working fine. In fact the only reason i'm posting this is to try out the keyboard, it's a bit different to my old MS Natural Pro, but seems good so far. Just got the D-Link router to set up now!

 

[Kryten]

Fair play
Good to see another natural keyboard user though - haven't been able to get used to a straight keyboard for ages. Last two previous to my current one (MS Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, big, black and sexy) were straight and was trying them out as they were wireless. Couldn't get on with them, huge hands, penchant for odd shaped keyboards - didn't work :>

 

[Bodhi]

Can I just add at this point, routers were designed by Satan.



That is all.

 

[Jonty]

Fair play
Good to see another natural keyboard user though - haven't been able to get used to a straight keyboard for ages. Last two previous to my current one (MS Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, big, black and sexy) were straight and was trying them out as they were wireless. Couldn't get on with them, huge hands, penchant for odd shaped keyboards - didn't work :>

Slightly off topic, but I have the opposite problem, I'm trying to go from a straight keyboard (on my notebook) to a curved one (on Microsoft's Wireless Entertainment Desktop) Thankfully the new keyboard doesn't split the keys aggressively like the original designs, but the curve is still slowing me down somewhat. Can you remember how long it took you to adjust? (I know everyone's different, I'm just curious).

Can I just add at this point, routers were designed by Satan. That is all.

True Even simple tasks can be a pain. I remember spending an exorbitant amount of time trying to get my wireless router and wireless printer server to play nicely together. Same manufacturer, supposedly all compatible, but to this day it still only works when it feels like it ><

Kind regards

 

[Ch3tan]

Can I just add at this point, routers were designed by Satan.



That is all.

Buy netgear. My routers have always worked first time, every time.

I wish I'd read this earlier, just upgraded my wireless router, would have offloaded my old one to you for cheap. Let me know if the one you bought does not work out.

 

[Bodhi]

It's pissing me off now. I got it all set up and working last night before I rearranged my room to tidy some wires up (and get the PC next to my settee so I don't have to get up to change games or switch it on), the router talked tot he cable modem, and the PC accessed the internet through job done I thought.

So I unplug EVERYTHING to do the re-arranging, plug it all back in again and now the router won't talk to the cable modem. The WAN light doesn't come on the router and the Ethernet light isn't on on the modem. Arses. I'm going to go and have a fiddle, in the meantime, any ideas what the smeg is going on?

P.S Jonty, it took me a couple of months to get used to the MS Natural keyboards, but after that I didn't look back. This Logitech seems a nice halfway house however, the keys are all in one block, but the block itself is contoured to fit your hands. Gotta say I'm pretty impressed.

 

[Kryten]

I'm not sure how long it took, going back about 10 years I think. It didn't take that long - even then I was touch typing at a reasonable speed and the split down the middle just made it that little bit easier, forcing the right fingers onto the right keys. Well, more than a straight keyboard. Even now at my 130wpm uberbashing speed I tend to use circa 2 fingers each side :/

 

[Ch3tan]

Have you turned off the cable modem, turned it back on, let it connect, then plug it into the router, let the router and the modem connect, then plug it into your pc (while off).

Failing that, have you logged into the router and checked the settings?

 

[Bodhi]

Got it working. Did as you suggested, plus changed one of the network cables. Did a funny little dance. Sacrificed a goat. Drank a beer. It connected first time. Not sure if I can do this every time I want to go on to the internet. I'm going to run out of goats.


As an aside this 2600 XT is stunning. I've just been playing UT2003 and Doom 3 (the latest games I have apart from CnC 3 ), whacked both up to full detail and resolution and played em on the big TV. Both looked stunning for 4 year old games as well.

Signed,


A Happy Bunny.

 

[Jonty]

Hi Bodhi and Kryten

Thanks for the information on the natural keyboards, I hope it won't take me long to adjust.

I'm glad everything is running smoothly Bodhi

Kind regards

 

[Bodhi]

It was until I installed the UT3 demo. It's playable, but definitely not smooth. Now is a P4 3.4Ghz going to improve that, or am I going to have to bite the bullet and get a C2Duo x38xx set up to play it?

Before you mention it it doesn't mean the 2600 XT will be wasted, far from it. It'll go in a cracking little living room PC with a P4 2.8Ghz and 2 Gig of RAM - the 2D image quality the card produces is the best I've ever seen, and it plays enough games to keep me happy. There isn't that much of a difference between UT2003 and UT3 imo anyway. But do people still make half decent dektop cases? A tower would look silly underneath the telly, but a dektop would be a similar size to my other components, so would fit in fine.

 

[Kryten]

Yeah, Silverstone make some very nice looking desktop cases, but you'll be paying a fair bit for them.

I did get in at work a cheap and cheerful case the other day though that I thought would suit quite well.

It's cheap, fairly tacky, but underneath a TV you'd probably not realise it was anything other than a standard home TV setup. It's just a standard case with the drives in the middle, really, and takes standard motherboards, psu's etc - but you might need to check first. It's made by Enlight I think.

I know what you mean about the image quality - just after you bought your 2600XT, I received a boxful (well, circa 15 of) PCI-E 2400XTs with native DVI>HDMI (inc sound) support, courtesy of Dell. Crap for games really, but they were passively cooled and image quality was very good. I kept one aside for future media centre endeavours

I'm not sure if a processor is going to help that much, rather difficult to say and could be an expensive way to find out it doesn't help if you decide to risk it. There will certainly be one hell of a difference with a Core2Duo though.

Is your current 2.8 hyperthreading enabled? If not, I suspect you'd probably get a fair whack of a speed boost with a new chip.

If you're not in any hurry, I can perhaps be of a little help - I can throw a 3ghz HT processor your way in the middle of next week. I know it's not much quicker than a 2.8 but may provide enough of a boost in UT3 to know whether a full upgrade to the 3.4 will be worth it.


Personally hoping that AMD pull their socks up soon, they're going under really rather quickly, and they're a brand I don't want dissapearing any time soon. Competition reasons mainly, but of course you've a lot of people loyal to ATI/AMD, and the only market really keeping them afloat is server graphics chipsets (still mostly Rage based). But their image quality speaks for itself, one thing they've always managed well is the "quality over quantity" thing which is something nVidia would do well to learn.

 

[Bodhi]

Nope, my PC is currently a HyperThreading free zone. My CPU is THAT old. I'm in no hurry to speed up UT3, I need to play The Orange Box, which I get the impression will run fine. Let me know about that 3Ghz CPU, I'd be interested in seeing the difference HT makes.

 

[Jonty]

Hi Bodhi

I think Kryten's your man regarding the CPU, but as for The Orange Box and UT3, I can verify that the former will run fine with your current setup. I have an aging Radeon 9700 Pro in one of my systems and it runs The Orange Box beautifully; it's really surprising. However, when I installed the UT3 demo, it completely killed it. Hats off to Valve for the Source engine's scalability.

Kind regards

 

[Kryten]

aye, can only be impressed with the Source engine for that reason - doesn't leave behind all the folks that aren't rich enough/bothered enough to keep with all the latest hardware trends.

I'll grab that CPU from work on Tuesday, Bodhi - then will PM you tuesday night for your addy, slap it in a jiffy bag and throw it your way on Wednesday. If it makes a difference and you decide to go for the 3.4, keep hold of it until you get the new cpu and then just throw it back to me. Or if you like, throw a fiver my way through paypal then slam it on ebay, whatever's easiest

 

[Bodhi]

Cheers dude, I'll send you a fiver on Paypal for it, just let me know when you have it in your posession. In the meantime I think I might try the UT3 demo again without Creative Media Source and MSN running in the background.

As an aside, it seems my connection has got faster since I installed the router? How? Webpages load up faster and torrents connect pretty much straight away?

 

[Kryten]

Not sure on a wired router - the old one may have had some "failsafe" systems running - firewalls, QoS, stateful packet inspection etc. It might have just been, for want of a more technical word, shit

I know some chipsets behave better/in different ways to others - Netgear kit often has a fair few default settings people like to turn off straight away whereas Linksys/Cisco tends to "just bloody work".