Give Scout Love

chretien

Fledgling Freddie
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Dukat said:
Anyway, rangers now get access to a CL bow which is either the same as the scouts in spd, or actually slower than the scouts one, giving rangers access to the same, (or better) bow damage than scouts.
According to the Herald, the Dochar Recurve Bow has a speed of 5.7 while the Scout Dextera Bow is a 5.6 speed weapon. So yes, Scouts are no longer the hardest hitting archers.

Just to put another argument to bed, the base range is 1600 for a Hunter, 1680 for a Ranger and 1760 for a Scout making the actual range advantage to a Scout 88 units vs a Ranger and 176 vs a Hunter (assuming everyone has max +range). Like I said though ranged encounters between stealthers very rarely happen outside sieges.
 

Aiteal

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chretien said:
Just to put another argument to bed, the base range is 1600 for a Hunter, 1680 for a Ranger and 1760 for a Scout making the actual range advantage to a Scout 88 units vs a Ranger and 176 vs a Hunter (assuming everyone has max +range). Like I said though ranged encounters between stealthers very rarely happen outside sieges.

Sorry, but I'm gonna have to wake it up again ;)

Scouts traditionally got the range bow from the slowest bows
Rangers got a range bonus from medium recurves, but if they used slower recurves then they got no range bonus and would fall behind a little farther than scouts.

Having said that, Mythic seems to set base bow values willy nilly these days
For example, the newer lotm bows at 5.7 speed actually shoot further for rangers than 5.4 and 5.5 catas bows.

Dukat said:
Scout Bow Damage is actually the same as, if not less than, ranger bow damage.

The thing that used to keep scout bow damage higher than ranger bow damage was that scouts used to get access to a slower spd bow than rangers. That being immolated bow, the alb version being something like 5.8spd, where as the hib version was something like 5.6 (these figures are not exact but I've been away from the game for a while so I am not as ready with the numbers as I used to be )

Anyway, rangers now get access to a CL bow which is either the same as the scouts in spd, or actually slower than the scouts one, giving rangers access to the same, (or better) bow damage than scouts.

Well, all archers given equal stats and toa bonuses/bow speed will hit for the same.
Ranger will jump ahead at this point given PF damage add.

The idea that scouts always had slower bows is something propagated by the old scout TL Andro, and its not actually true.

According to posts by the shade TL after the champ bow was released and he spoke to mythic, they said that

Rangers and scouts both had 5.4s bows in the beginning, and 5.5s when crafting was introduced. They've ALWAYS had the same speed bows

ToA did give scouts slower artifact bows than rangers, but they both had access to the immolated at 5.8 speed.
Once CM was itemised rangers had access to the same speed bows as scouts.

When the champ bows were released Mythic explained the bow speed differences to the TL as a way of getting back to their original design intent.

Rangers hit the hardest.
Scout have the most range.
Hunters shoot the fastest.

Thats why rangers got a 5.7 speed champ bow and scouts only got a 5.6 one.
 

Ctuchik

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traktorlove said:
I wonder if you ever heard about sureshot, personally i didnt loose 1 1vs1 versus a caster on my hunter, unless the opponent mocced lifetap, or in some way got a mezz/stun on my, which usually didnt happen as I killed quite quick!


heh, most ppl still dont think sureshot is worth the specpoints. or rather lose out on it in favor of "wtfpwn" melee insted...

and then they bitch when they lose to a caster....

either u spec bow and SPEC bow or u loose to every QC caster in the game....

archers CAN win almost every 1v1 against casters (harder against baseline stunning hibs ofc), they just have to spec for it.
 

Dukat

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Ctuchik said:
heh, most ppl still dont think sureshot is worth the specpoints. or rather lose out on it in favor of "wtfpwn" melee insted...

and then they bitch when they lose to a caster....

either u spec bow and SPEC bow or u loose to every QC caster in the game....

archers CAN win almost every 1v1 against casters (harder against baseline stunning hibs ofc), they just have to spec for it.

Casters get QC as a class ability at level 5.

Scouts have to spec up to 45 in bow for sureshot.

And even then, sureshot is NOT (imo) a reason to spec to 45 bow in itself. The speed is too slow against casters, if they're cast speed capped they can get off spells between shots with sureshot.

Mixing sureshot and rapidfire can work, but it doesnt guarantee that you'll win the interrupt fight against a QC caster by any means.

Its not so much about the 'wtfpwn melee', its just the fact that standing a little more than a snowballs chance in hell of surviving a melee encounter is preferable (imo) to an ability that is so situational that it rarely gets used.

Not having sureshot doesnt make much of a difference to me when I used to go up against a caster with my 35 bow scout. 35+16 bow spec damage is comparable to 45+16 bow spec. I did not miss sureshot, except on very rare occasions, and the slightly increased melee survivability/damage(not to mention the additional styles) more than made up for those occasions in almost every run.
 

Dukat

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Aiteal said:
Sorry, but I'm gonna have to wake it up again ;)

Scouts traditionally got the range bow from the slowest bows
Rangers got a range bonus from medium recurves, but if they used slower recurves then they got no range bonus and would fall behind a little farther than scouts.

Having said that, Mythic seems to set base bow values willy nilly these days
For example, the newer lotm bows at 5.7 speed actually shoot further for rangers than 5.4 and 5.5 catas bows.



Well, all archers given equal stats and toa bonuses/bow speed will hit for the same.
Ranger will jump ahead at this point given PF damage add.

The idea that scouts always had slower bows is something propagated by the old scout TL Andro, and its not actually true.

According to posts by the shade TL after the champ bow was released and he spoke to mythic, they said that



ToA did give scouts slower artifact bows than rangers, but they both had access to the immolated at 5.8 speed.
Once CM was itemised rangers had access to the same speed bows as scouts.

When the champ bows were released Mythic explained the bow speed differences to the TL as a way of getting back to their original design intent.



Thats why rangers got a 5.7 speed champ bow and scouts only got a 5.6 one.

Hehe yea, you're right, I'd forgotten about the old triad "harder longer faster" thing with archery. I must be getting rusty! :(
 

Dr_Evil

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Scouts in skald pov:

high rr scout vs high rr skald

Scout has higher defence, due to higher shieldspec.

My skald has MoParry4 (no way I can afford MoParry5), and I've met a scout with high MoBlock (probably MoBlock5), and he blocked 9 of 10 blows wich means he had regenerated back to 100% HP between each time I could hit him. I parried 6-7 out of 10 of his hits, but he used slam and grapple + bow (his bow damage was 100-150 dmg, but still did the job), so no chance to win for me. It's the toughest melee 1v1 I've ever fought.

I get more hits through the defences of shield heroes/armsmen, as they spec for MoParry also, not just MoBlock (so they rarely go as high MoBlock) and since my 2h cuts through their parry, I get atleast 3 of 10 hits in on MoBlock4 and if it's lower I actually might have a small chance to win.

I've fought wardens 1v1 in battles that lasted for 20mins and still both of us had 90%+ HP and no sign of anyone losing, while I've been stripped of all my buffs so we just had to call it a draw and go our separate ways.

Minstrels are piece of cake since they can't spec any MoBlock or shield. Rangers and Vampiirs I beat more often than I lose against, same goes for 2h heroes and blademasters.

All classes that can choose to spec high MoBlock or MoParry can get extreme defence against melee - including scouts. The weakness of the scout is dual wielders, but he shouldn't be able to beat those anyway.
 

Dukat

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Dr_Evil said:
All classes that can choose to spec high MoBlock or MoParry can get extreme defence against melee - including scouts. The weakness of the scout is dual wielders, but he shouldn't be able to beat those anyway.

The problem is that 9 out of 10 of the melee encounters a scout has is with a DW opponent.

3 out of the 4 enemy stealther classes we face have dual weild. Factor in that hunters get the pet to mess up our "1 attacker only" shield and you have a receipe for hurt.
 

censi

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Melee isn't what archers are for - melee Rangers are an aberration...I've actually seen some Albs complain about Hunters' melee damage, yet Hunter melee DPS is nothing compared to melee Ranger DPS. The Scout has huge bow damage, huge bow range, and can spec shield to negate any other archer in any sort of ranged standoff.../assisting Scouts at keeps are incredibly powerful.
And as for a Hunter "handing a Scout his ass in melee", I guess the Scout didn't want to spec for Slam then.
Plus, that would imply a solo Scout.
Sh'yeah, right.

www.clueless.com
 

Lamp

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So it seems the scout needs to spec MOB / MOP to survive in RVR...
 

Blizard

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I loved everything with my Scout... couldnt fault her in the end once my template was sorted!
Now that Hunters have had some love i think they may be a abit of hastle for Scouts but before, everything was easy pickings!
Its knowing your surroundings, knowing what abbilities to use... and when! Having the right spec is important and the right template! All in all, learn to play your class and learn your limits!
Just my opinion!

Blitz!
 

Kami

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Out of the 3 archers classes I actually prefered my scout, the shield spec made up for the loss of melee damage if you ask me. You're not a tank, you're not a melee class.

Hunter was more fun though, hated Ranger but think you really need a few realm ranks to get the most out of them.
 

Ctuchik

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Dukat said:
Its not so much about the 'wtfpwn melee', its just the fact that standing a little more than a snowballs chance in hell of surviving a melee encounter is preferable (imo) to an ability that is so situational that it rarely gets used.

oh comon. u'd have to go so high in melee ur more or less useless with the bow to stand a chance in a melee fight


granted slam helps, but not THAT much. unless ur RR10+ or something silly....

archers will and should never be as good in melee as they are with a bow.
 

Moaning Myrtle

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Ctuchik said:
archers will and should never be as good in melee as they are with a bow.

I agree 100%.

However, to compensate, the Scout (and other archer classes) need to have bow damage increased considerbly, or have Crit Shot go straight through BT and Brittes as per assassin PA.
 

Kami

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Moaning Myrtle said:
I agree 100%.

However, to compensate, the Scout (and other archer classes) need to have bow damage increased considerbly, or have Crit Shot go straight through BT and Brittes as per assassin PA.

Crit shot where the target isn't moving or in combat, I'd completely agree with you as you're catching them off guard.

Not just whenever you feel like it though, that was the problem several years ago, archers and especially scouts could kill pretty much any class and be gone before anyone could react.
 

Aiteal

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Moaning Myrtle said:
I agree 100%.

However, to compensate, the Scout (and other archer classes) need to have bow damage increased considerbly, or have Crit Shot go straight through BT and Brittes as per assassin PA.

that will never ever ever happen
 

Dukat

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Ctuchik said:
oh comon. u'd have to go so high in melee ur more or less useless with the bow to stand a chance in a melee fight

granted slam helps, but not THAT much. unless ur RR10+ or something silly....

archers will and should never be as good in melee as they are with a bow.

Wait wait wait.

You're trying to tell me the bow is actually used for something other than extending my reach to turn the TV on at great distances?

bladeturn
brittle guards
MOC
PD on casters
capped cast times
DI
etc

You expect me to shoot at a caster with all that going on? No thanks, I'd rather try solo'ing golestandt.

As it stands at the moment archery is not worth it, you say that to stand a chance in melee we'd have to: "go so high in melee ur more or less useless with the bow" well, we're 'more or less useless' with it now, so what have we got to lose?

If you up the damage you'll just have archers taking on heavy tanks, casters are not worth the risk because they have so many stupid anti-archer abilities.

Assassins can go through brittles, so why shouldnt archery ffs?

You wonder why such a small minority of hunters and rangers spec for bow? Simply put: because its shit compared to melee.

In my opinion, in its current state, archery is not worth speccing more than 35 in it.

So that leaves us falling back on our melee. Hunters and rangers do not suffer as much as scouts in this respect because thier melee is better suited to stealthwars than ours. Shield is next to useless against dual wield, and we cant spec parry, so what exactly can we do apart from waiting in a keep for all of our actives to be up?

Scout melee needs love to bring us into line with rangers and hunters, once that happens we can all sit there and wait for archery to be fixed on a level playing field, untill then scouts will be easy rps for anyone who isnt a low rr skald.


oh and btw, slam 'helps' if it lands. It lands once in every three fights (if I'm lucky), the other two times its just a big waste of endurance and time, and often as not ends up causing me to finish the fight by typing /release.
 

Blizard

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Hi Dukat...

I would obviously like some Scout love but tbh, i was speced for mele and i have to say, i held my own!

If you have the right template with the right arti's and the right RA's, then you are a formidible class to be reckoned with!

Also, try using tactics, ie. use Numb first, wait for them to purge and then 8 secs later use Slam!
I nearly always got slam off on an enemy so maybe its because you have low dex or weaponskill or something?

I was: 35 Bow
42 Shield
32 Stealth
42 Thrust i think ??
With Winged Helm, Scallers, GoV, SoM, Malice, Golden Spear (+ varied swords in back pack with poisons on from my local Infil), Foolsbow, (Braggarts for Arrows)!
You can really be a tough Scout to beat!

I usally tried to use ''SoM with Winged Helm'' and 'Scallers with Mallice' but it all depended on what situation your in ofc!

Anyway have faith mate... i hear they may bring Scouts love soon anyway!

Regards...
 

Aiteal

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Blizard said:
Also, try using tactics, ie. use Numb first, wait for them to purge and then 8 secs later use Slam!

Numb has a different animation now than slam
If that still works on people, then they are a little silly
 

Golena

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Let me explain the times when scouts are actually going to be able to put out some DPS with their bow.

Against any other steather at the range you can see them your going to get one shot off tops before they reach you, and since all the other stealthers are better in melee than you that one bow shot better count!

Since crit shot only works if your enemy is standing still then outside keep sieges your going to be reduced to normal shots. If your lucky you can kill a caster before he works out where you are, in every other case whatever your fighting is likely to get to you before you can kill him with a bow and will then shred you to pieces. Most classes these days have plenty of ranged interupts to stop you actually shooting at them while they get to you, and if not they probably have either a shield (90% blockrate) or charge.

The only way your going to be able to out melee anything other than a caster is by ditching the pointes in bow and speccing fully for melee. So what your doing is ditching the line that makes the class what it is for a sub-par melee class with the ability to avoid fights, which you'll be doing alot because most things will simply kill you without blinking. You can set yourself up to be very hard to take down and outlast your opponent, high shield and PD, but since your a scout (read adding w*nker) someone will probably come blow you away while your trying.

Standing in a tower your fine, but there's very little actual keep action these days. Your best way to put out some DPS with a bow is adding on fights, but most people here will crucify you for doing that so that's out.
It's not necessarily that the class is broken, it's that the class given the current no-add/no keep action playstyle is broken. Everywhere the class is good is considered by most players to be utterly lame.

Yes we get slam.. if speccing 1/3 of your available points for a 9 sec stun that's probably going to eat 50% of your end before it connects and will be purged 9/10 times is the saving grace of a class, what does that really say about the rest of it? Especially since you're unlikely to actually kill anything during those 9 seconds.
 

Puppet

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Rhana said:
Hmm, Im playing a RM on prydwen... now a days with sureshot, I turn and run with sprint if a archer starts to shoot at me... What can I do? I can q-cast ONE nuce and then he kills me (if Im luckey enough to get that one away as q-casted spells is casted at base speed w/o any speed bonus what so ever)

Quickcast nearsight, voilla he's not being able to shoot you and you nuke him.

Onely time I meet a solo scout, is in Thid.. in full scale RvR, they are 2-4... Weee my brittle guard took one.. my BT the next... and there 2 critshots in my belly... what speed do you think I move with after that (if even alive)? You arent very fast when sevearly damaged... and there.. 4 more arrows in the air... /rel

Perhaps you shouldnt expect to win versus multiple enemies as a RM and run in a (small) group aswell. With healing and CC and other silly stuff.

Dont forget, you will have the drop on the caster 19 out of 20 times.. the last time you gets hit by an AE spell...

Getting the drop on a caster as archer doesnt mean much if the caster has any brain on what to do. And yeah ur RM is quite weak (tho the Nearsight should do wonders against archers) but imagine BD, WL, SM, Chanter, Cabalist, Sorc, Theurg etc aswell
 

Moaning Myrtle

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Golena said:
Let me explain the times when scouts are actually going to be able to put out some DPS with their bow.

Against any other steather at the range you can see them your going to get one shot off tops before they reach you, and since all the other stealthers are better in melee than you that one bow shot better count!

Since crit shot only works if your enemy is standing still then outside keep sieges your going to be reduced to normal shots. If your lucky you can kill a caster before he works out where you are, in every other case whatever your fighting is likely to get to you before you can kill him with a bow and will then shred you to pieces. Most classes these days have plenty of ranged interupts to stop you actually shooting at them while they get to you, and if not they probably have either a shield (90% blockrate) or charge.

The only way your going to be able to out melee anything other than a caster is by ditching the pointes in bow and speccing fully for melee. So what your doing is ditching the line that makes the class what it is for a sub-par melee class with the ability to avoid fights, which you'll be doing alot because most things will simply kill you without blinking. You can set yourself up to be very hard to take down and outlast your opponent, high shield and PD, but since your a scout (read adding w*nker) someone will probably come blow you away while your trying.

Standing in a tower your fine, but there's very little actual keep action these days. Your best way to put out some DPS with a bow is adding on fights, but most people here will crucify you for doing that so that's out.
It's not necessarily that the class is broken, it's that the class given the current no-add/no keep action playstyle is broken. Everywhere the class is good is considered by most players to be utterly lame.

Yes we get slam.. if speccing 1/3 of your available points for a 9 sec stun that's probably going to eat 50% of your end before it connects and will be purged 9/10 times is the saving grace of a class, what does that really say about the rest of it? Especially since you're unlikely to actually kill anything during those 9 seconds.

Superb, 100% accurate.
 

Dukat

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Blizard said:
Hi Dukat...

I would obviously like some Scout love but tbh, i was speced for mele and i have to say, i held my own!

If you have the right template with the right arti's and the right RA's, then you are a formidible class to be reckoned with!

Also, try using tactics, ie. use Numb first, wait for them to purge and then 8 secs later use Slam!
I nearly always got slam off on an enemy so maybe its because you have low dex or weaponskill or something?

I was: 35 Bow
42 Shield
32 Stealth
42 Thrust i think ??
With Winged Helm, Scallers, GoV, SoM, Malice, Golden Spear (+ varied swords in back pack with poisons on from my local Infil), Foolsbow, (Braggarts for Arrows)!
You can really be a tough Scout to beat!

I usally tried to use ''SoM with Winged Helm'' and 'Scallers with Mallice' but it all depended on what situation your in ofc!

Anyway have faith mate... i hear they may bring Scouts love soon anyway!

Regards...

I run with an expensive template and I'm RR6, I've been many, many different specs over the years, with varying amounts of melee.

I've never run with envenomed weapons out of personal preference, because tbh if we need poisoned weapons to perform, its as good as saying we need a boost in melee imo :)

I can hold my own against lower RR archer classes and assassins. However this comes after 3-4 years of playing the game, of carefully working out what works and what doesnt, and even then almost every fight I end up blowing every active I have.

Scouts rely too much on actives and artifact charges. How many other assassins/rangers put so much time and effort into thier gear/playstyle?

Censi is one and look where it got him, almost unrivalled on the server, atleast among the other archer classes.

If every hunter/ranger spent as much time and effort on thier character as melee scouts have to spend, I think we'd wouldnt win even half the fights vs other archer classes that we do currently. I'm not saying this meaning disrespect to the other archer classes, and I am aware that there are a few of each class that has spent the time and put in the effort, but those people are easily recognisable for how well they perform, I cant name all of them, but theres censi, galid and aiteal to name three.

Look at what happens when censi rolls a hunter? barely RR5 and he's already doing really well if his video is any indication - I have to admit I havent met him ingame yet, but I'm looking forward to it :)

All I'm saying is that for a melee scout to perform we have to have all the best gear, have to know our characters like the backs of our hand, and even then there are very few of us above RR6.

What I'm trying to say here is that I'm not posting here moaning because I cant kill anything, because I can win fights, its just that I cant perform as well as the other archer classes in melee, and scouts archery just isnt sufficiently far enough ahead of hunters/rangers archery for me to spend spec points on it, therefore we are not on a level playing field with the other archers, and I believe we should be getting a boost to bring us back into line.
 

Ryuno

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Archers in general have been waiting nearly 2 years for an "Archery fix" that has been put off my mythic, time and time again.

The archer Teamleads have done an excellent job showing mythic simple ways to make Archery viable again, but they are always told to fuck off :(

Last I heard was Mythic planned to release an archery patch after the expansion. I'm not holding my breath :)
 

Dafft

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Slam is the most overated ability on a scout.

1) It eats 20% End
2) No to-hit Bonus
3) No dmg bonus

Slamming evade 3 to 7 class was retarded, you'd run outta end v.v.v.v.quickly.

Although I had 50 shield on my scout, I never used slam period. It wasn't even on my main qbar.

As mentioned earlier, Archery needs to be updated - it's not as viable as it once was. Mythic promised us that 1.67 would be our patch now with 1.7x out, what do they do? give thanes more power.

Reason why I stopped playing, the scout was no longer any enjoyment
 

censi

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Let me explain the times when scouts are actually going to be able to put out some DPS with their bow.

Against any other steather at the range you can see them your going to get one shot off tops before they reach you, and since all the other stealthers are better in melee than you that one bow shot better count!

Since crit shot only works if your enemy is standing still then outside keep sieges your going to be reduced to normal shots. If your lucky you can kill a caster before he works out where you are, in every other case whatever your fighting is likely to get to you before you can kill him with a bow and will then shred you to pieces. Most classes these days have plenty of ranged interupts to stop you actually shooting at them while they get to you, and if not they probably have either a shield (90% blockrate) or charge.

The only way your going to be able to out melee anything other than a caster is by ditching the pointes in bow and speccing fully for melee. So what your doing is ditching the line that makes the class what it is for a sub-par melee class with the ability to avoid fights, which you'll be doing alot because most things will simply kill you without blinking. You can set yourself up to be very hard to take down and outlast your opponent, high shield and PD, but since your a scout (read adding w*nker) someone will probably come blow you away while your trying.

Standing in a tower your fine, but there's very little actual keep action these days. Your best way to put out some DPS with a bow is adding on fights, but most people here will crucify you for doing that so that's out.
It's not necessarily that the class is broken, it's that the class given the current no-add/no keep action playstyle is broken. Everywhere the class is good is considered by most players to be utterly lame.

Yes we get slam.. if speccing 1/3 of your available points for a 9 sec stun that's probably going to eat 50% of your end before it connects and will be purged 9/10 times is the saving grace of a class, what does that really say about the rest of it? Especially since you're unlikely to actually kill anything during those 9 seconds.

10% close to reasonable. 90% bollaxs. imo.

first off you shouldnt really fear other archers as a scout. you can do fine versus those. Fear assasins because u will be getting evaded one hell of a lot, u will be debuffed and hitting for crap damage when you are not evaded. You wont be blocking that much and your hits will drop fast.

its that issue which needs to be fixed really. the other archers are competative versus assasins, scouts are not. U tend to find a lot of your fights will be versus assasins. therefore scouts tend to get a bit fucked off with dying to them imo.
 

Tip

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Scouts are shit full stop, they deffo need some love,
Give them medium shields for starters and some better melle abilitys
Lose the crap rr5 ability in favour of something that works :) ie/ (a speed boost would be nice)
 

Eeben

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i think my scout is fine when im not debufft to shit by assains :(
 

Dukat

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censi said:
its that issue which needs to be fixed really. the other archers are competative versus assasins, scouts are not. U tend to find a lot of your fights will be versus assasins. therefore scouts tend to get a bit fucked off with dying to them imo.

Sums up how I feel atm tbh.

Hunters and rangers are better equipped for dealing with assassins than scouts are. We're supposed to be the defensive archer but with shield facing a 50% penalty from the word go we just arent defensive enough.

This is why I believe parry would be such a good thing for scouts, we could then be what we need to be in melee, defensive enough to measure up to our fellow archer classes.

As long as we dont get extra spec points we will then need to make sacrifices to give us enough defence, so we then wont be 'overpowered'.
 

Eeben

Fledgling Freddie
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
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3,607
Dukat said:
Sums up how I feel atm tbh.

Hunters and rangers are better equipped for dealing with assassins than scouts are. We're supposed to be the defensive archer but with shield facing a 50% penalty from the word go we just arent defensive enough.

This is why I believe parry would be such a good thing for scouts, we could then be what we need to be in melee, defensive enough to measure up to our fellow archer classes.

As long as we dont get extra spec points we will then need to make sacrifices to give us enough defence, so we then wont be 'overpowered'.

give parry thats all i ask for tbh.. that would make things alot more even.. dont even need more spec points..
 

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