G20 - London

[Pfy]

I'd love it if I was sat in the office working to look up and see a chair come through a window

Be better if it hit you square in the face.

Then we'd ALL love it.

 

[Poag]

1038 Police in London have stopped a group of demonstrators in an armoured vehicle. They are now questioning about a dozen protestors.

BBC NEWS | Business | Live: G20 Summit Build-up

Oh yes i can see the protestors are here for a peacefull day......

 

[Scouse]

People see innocent/incompetant things....then like sheep they listen to the sensationalist media and claim a conspiracy.

I watched four riots in Bradford when I lived there and watched police charge peaceful protesting each time before violence ensued. Of course, it was the protesters who started it according the "sensationalist" Beeb.

I've been at many foreign football matches and watched away supporters coins, stones and bottles of piss thrown at away fans, only for the away fans to be beaten up and arrested.

My 'lil bro, arsehole that can be, was put in hospital for 3 weeks by a copper because my brother asked him for his number so he could make a formal complaint against him.

My copper mate from Leeds says significant numbers of them tool around in riot vans on a Friday night in the town centre looking for fights to get stuck in to, not just to stop them (which they do), but because they like putting the boot in.

Now, I'm not saying "all authorities are evul" or anything gay like that. But I've got a point...

 

[Scouse]

I'll remember this post if me or any of my colleagues get caught up in any crap tomorrow...

Not saying I like it m8. I hope nobody gets hurt. I won't cry over property though - as it should be insured.

If some people do lose out financially, whilst this is to be regretted I think that, because of the proven effectiveness of direct action, it's a price we should be willing to pay to, perversely, uphold democratic rule.

 

[Scouse]

All the other stuff, bypasses, airport protests, Iraq protests, countryside alliance; all a waste of time and didn't change anything. And the anti-globalisation riots have been the least effective of all.

I disagree with this. It's got people thinking, which is one of the prime objectives of any type of demonstration.

If there wasn't such a thing as, for example, persistent environmental protest, we wouldn't be doing what we're supposed to be doing right now.

And look at what they're protesting about? Climate change has been on Greenpeace and FoE's radar since the 1970's, when they were popular organisations to be members of. So, what did the Government of the day do?

Trashed 'em. Maggie employed image consultants and they advised her to show swampy-types on the telly whenever environmental action was in the news.

Did it work? Well I'd say so. You lot watch pictures of demonstrators with their families (because if you're politically minded and want to demonstrate then you can hardly leave the kids behind to look after themselves) - and judge them all to be crusty wankers!

Win for the Conservative Party!

Well, "win", in some sense....apart from that the protesters were, erm, right?

 

[Scouse]

Yes, the nomenklatura back in the days made the russian society much more equal. The only difference between the leftists and the "capitalists", is that the leftists are disapointed for their lack of power. But if they would sieze power, they would never let go freely, as opposed to a capitalist democracy.

I've no problem with the "democracy" side of that. You're completely right about wankers getting in to power not being able to keep hold of it - which is why Labour should be out on their ear very soon

However, corporations don't lose their power. The biggest are, by definition, on a persistent growth and influence curve - and we can't vote them out.

Democracy, yes. Capitalist democracy, no.

 

[DaGaffer]

Democracy, yes. Capitalist democracy, no.

We've discussed this before. What's the alternative? The best you can hope for are checks and balances to curb the excesses of the system; we're in this mess because the Republicans (and nuLab and others) deregulated or simply chose to ignore their own safeguards. It doesn't mean the system is broken, just the ***** who run it.

 

[Scouse]

What's the alternative?

In my personal opinion, that is a task that governments should be looking at as part of their mandate - but they're not.

Capitalism, as a concept, is too old. It doesn't take into account finite resources, energy supply, environmental concerns. Sure you can tweak it, but to do the job properly a more fundamental shift in the system of rules is required. It's also socially reprehensible.

There are many models out there already but they're not getting serious developmental help. We should be instituting programs that are designed to look for radical alternatives and safe ways to migrate rather than programs that are designed to tweak capitalism but leave its deep-seated inadequacies unadressed.

The reasons to do this are obvious. Capitalism has been found to be broken. Just like Communism was. However, there are alternatives to be found as long as the effort is made.

Massive change is coming anyway. Proper Global Government of a sort is going to happen sooner or later and it's only going to grow in influence when it does. It'd make sense to try several different models out before this happens...

 

[inactionman]

That's a very odd stance to take Scouse, if there's one thing that capitalism is good at, it's allocating scarce resources effectively. Besides, capitalism wasn't proven wrong, because all of the problems that have happened are ultimately down to government meddling, or corporatism.

There also are no alternatives, you can either have central planning (communism) or market allocation (capitalism).

 

[Furr]

Capitalism as a concept is too... old?? Shit! well democracy is older than capitalism got to change that then, and suffrage too!!!

Scouse, your arguments like those of the ironic iPhone wielding, 40 quid a month "anti-capitalists" and Blackberry anarchist fall flat at the crucial hurdle of "where's the substance?".
You ask these people what they are protesting against etc and they reel off a list, but try and get some hard quality views on what they stand for and they are lost for words, why? Because they don't know, I have no respect for anyone who's defines their views on what they stand against, they are the ignorant lot, the true idealists are those who know what they stand for.

 

[megadave]

Well whoever said it would be peaceful is wrong, one guy has been found dead.

 

[Tom]

Well whoever said it would be peaceful is wrong, one guy has been found dead.

I see nothing that ties those two facts together other than coincidence.

 

[Scouse]

There also are no alternatives, you can either have central planning (communism) or market allocation (capitalism).

:lol:

You ask these people what they are protesting against etc and they reel off a list, but try and get some hard quality views on what they stand for and they are lost for words, why? Because they don't know, I have no respect for anyone who's defines their views on what they stand against, they are the ignorant lot, the true idealists are those who know what they stand for.

Have you asked them Furr? Really? I doubt it...

The sad fact is that 80% of people don't really think politically. Not *really* think politically. Yes, people pay a little bit of attention - but to actually understand the underlying mechanisms? Nah. And it shows in this thread. People saying stuff like "capitalism is really good at allocating scarce resources" to the utter shit quoted above. In one word: rofflez0r!!!11!!!!1!

As for this:

Capitalism as a concept is too... old?? Shit! well democracy is older than capitalism got to change that then, and suffrage too!!!

Go back and read my post again. I didn't say we should ditch it because of its age.

 

[Chilly]

So fuck all has actually happened so far, looks like I was broadly correct.

 

[TdC]

broad, yes, correct, maybe

 

[Furr]

:lol:
Have you asked them Furr? Really? I doubt it...

The sad fact is that 80% of people don't really think politically. Not *really* think politically. Yes, people pay a little bit of attention - but to actually understand the underlying mechanisms? Nah. And it shows in this thread. People saying stuff like "capitalism is really good at allocating scarce resources" to the utter shit quoted above. In one word: rofflez0r!!!11!!!!1!

Every single one of them?
Scouse are you saying that protest for the sake of protest is fine? That ignorance on an issue doesn't mean they can't validly support it? seriously.. you are unbelievable its the feeble minded people like that who attach themselves to issues like choosing a fashion accessory that I hate, "suffering" from their middle class guilt believing that each protest, eco-holiday and act of vandalism absolves them of their oh so nice western upbringing as they fight for the "little guy", while afterwards going home to running water, functional government and justice system that works, Pathetic ignorant lot who've never experienced life where the basics of life and governance are a mix of bribes, fear and poverty outside of "Slumdog millionaire".
If you want to help people who need help then pay for a childs education so they can improve their future, or their parents medical bills so they can still work.

Anti capitalists are just people shouting "What do we want....erm...we don't know"

 

[inactionman]

To echo what Furr said, exactly what are you proposing Scouse? Like democracy, capitalism is the least bad system we have found so far, they both have their faults, but are ultimately better than the alternatives.

And capitalism (via the market) is the best system to effectively allocate scarce resources, despite what you have said, unless you can show me another system that will prove otherwise.

 

[Raven]

Well whoever said it would be peaceful is wrong, one guy has been found dead.

And pirates help prevent global warming, as demonstrated by a table which I cba to find.

 

[nath]

 

[Macey]

There were a few windows smashed at the RBS building, but nothing major that Ive heard of as yet.

Nice of Obama to put up a trillion moneys though to stimulate the economy, he really is the saviour of the world!

 

[Wij]

There were a few windows smashed at the RBS building, but nothing major that Ive heard of as yet.

Nice of Obama to put up a trillion moneys though to stimulate the economy, he really is the saviour of the world!

But Fat Gordon claimed all the credit for saving the world.

And NONE OF IT was his fault too !!!

 

[Scouse]

Nice of Obama to put up a trillion moneys though to stimulate the economy, he really is the saviour of the world!

Spoiler

Jeesus Tittyfucking Christ, Macey, how n00b can you get?!

 

[TdC]

I think it's called sarcasm, but I did lol all the same

 

[Macey]

Spoiler

Jeesus Tittyfucking Christ, Macey, how n00b can you get?!

Scouse have you ever stopped being a tool for long enough to actually read implied sarcasm? Jesus Christ its like talking to a retard it really is...

 

[megadave]

What do you guys think of the police's actions during the protests?

Things like this Indymedia London | Videos | Show | film of police attack on G20 climate camp come across as a bit of a disgrace to me.

 

[Chilly]

Looks like they were trying to clear a path through a PUBLIC ROAD blocked by a bunch of protestors to me. At worst there was some overly-harse shoving. Its not as if they police were caning the protesters with batons etc.

 

[Raven]

They weren't nearly heavy handed enough.

 

[rynnor]

They weren't nearly heavy handed enough.

I thought the Police did very well in that clip - you can see 'protestors' throwing missiles, trying to hit them and a clear shot near the end of a women spitting in a Policemans face yet theres no signs of any of them losing it.

Personally I'd go in with water cannon n tear gas so be glad I'm not Home Secretary

 

[megadave]

Looks like they were trying to clear a path through a PUBLIC ROAD blocked by a bunch of protestors to me. At worst there was some overly-harse shoving. Its not as if they police were caning the protesters with batons etc.

If they want to clear public roads maybe they shouldnt cordon the public in from all sides for upto 8 hours with no food, drink or toilets?

 

[Scouse]

Scouse have you ever stopped being a tool for long enough to actually read implied sarcasm? Jesus Christ its like talking to a retard it really is...

I'd just woken up and it was the first post I'd read