fotm....

[Z^^]

Who said anything about epic?
noone I assumed the worst


I have a Zerk with capped ToA-SC and artifacts that has a hard time get RVR-grps (Quote: we want a sav and u dont have gov) and my hunter i play solo or in stealthgrps in RVR but it was a living hell to get her to ML10 since they are unwanted in ML-grps.
Silly

If it's only about being competative in RVR how come ppl need 6 GoV's and 500p after they already have equipped their RVR-char(s)? And isnt competative in RVR just another way of putting "be better than other" ?
artifacts on midgard/excal is too overpriced because of endless df access and ppl have pockets like no other realm, witch makes it even worse for casual players(not saying you are one)

Speaking of raids i've lead numerous raids (TG, artifacthunts, ML-raids not forget the WoW-hunts back in the days ) but thats not the point here, what im speaking of is the attitude. Should the non-wanted classes be forced to arrange everything to get what they need while the wanted ones gets invited without have to bother much about arrange things? Furthermore maybe many Thanes dont want to form a Thane-grp with some healer that "wants a few rp's" and dont wanna hear every day that they are useless for a grp...
maybe not but this is a class game and fixes changes nerfs in other areas and introduction of savages in the realm didn't help midgard one bit in this way, what can you say but blame mythic then, in realm defence everyone is welcome and fixed fotm grps isn't a must but in grps outside mtk you really have to blame mythic for not wanting you in groups...

Well time after time u see ppl build perfect fotmgrps for ML-steps when its not needed.
As i said stupid ml steps there is no requirement other then shield spec tank healer and end and maybe a nukerk and you have it decent can lack one thing or the other.

I've heard many, many times by now that ppl who plays less wanted classes gets left behind in the ML's/have a hard time getting artifacts coz they dont have a fotm-class to farm the artis with.
Excluding thanes from artifact raids are also dumb, if you add for an example a savage instead sence thane can probably help more in most cases if its shield spec.
When it comes to RVR - yes u must have a good grp to stand a chance but would the grp be gimped if u switched one savage to something else?
If you go out to emain and expect to beat good/decent alb(hib grps even on morning runs you might find that it doesn't work if you have a grp that dies several times for some reason and then you wonder why sometimes its class setup and other times its players on crap connections and who are just crap players or/and afk alot.


If u missed it this thread was about both RVR and PVE. I dont think there are many SB's that expect or wants normal RVR-grps but they do want their ML's done and they often have a hard time getting grps.
I havn't played in midgard after toa im afraid but its really sad if ppl dont invite stealthers in pve, and frankly its stupid sence everyone can help there.


Yes and RG had a rule back in a while that if u didnt earn X rp's every week u got kicked from guild,
That rule got scrapped like 1 week after I think we never kicked anyone for that reason what I remember, was officer in RG back at that time.
NP had their farm 1 mill rp in a week and so on
Aye they wanted to see if it was possible and ofc they made it like news on fh but who cares, rvr players as rvr players have the rvr as goal and rps come with doing it.
Speaking of money, well if it's not about money why does ppl lotto on things they dont need and then go sell it for 20p 5 mins after the lotto?
Well if you join a random artifact raid why wouldn't you join the artifact run
and get afew artifacts like anyone else and how you use them really is your own choise.
Ofc ppl RVR coz its fun just aswell as ppl PVE coz it's fun (and yes, some ppl hates RVR while others hates PVE and yet others like both) but i think noone finds it fun to hear that they are gimped and constantly get excluded from the things they want to do with the class they want to play.
No, I guess not.



This was actually one of the most stupid things ive read. I was talking about attitudes from the start and ur attitude is horrible.
It maybe so.

Basically u took my thoughts about how nice it could be if ppl lightened up a bit and tried out new things and turned it all into something about I think that ppl should RVR in epic and DF-weapons and that everyone should invite whatever class avalible what was never what I wrote!

No infact, im just trying to point out why people like myself who have rvr gear done dont want to grp with ppl who havn't got the serious gear/ml/class. And I see thise posts on every board/realm, just gotta pull trew those mls get that artifact and go rvr in some halfarsed grps until you have the gov and the name of your berzerker's name in the head of everyone you rvred with as a good player then you will get those /send when you are out pveing and farming seals in df, tho I can't help thanes only patches can do that.

old.zorena in red guard.

 

[Imgormiel]

Heh, well this argument slightly got off the point, and introduced other points there that have yet to be discovered.

The thing is mid is changing, it's not that obvious in behavior but the game has changed things since TOA and what i would find interesting is how this whole arguement will change when Frontiers arrives - if at all. Thanes are getting determination as well all know by now. But will attitudes change along with this new part of the game due to arrive? Perhaps.

What interests me is how mid will or will not change on this server with the arrival of frontiers in the future and how peeps would have responded to the original post in the begining had this been at the time of frontiers. I guess we'll wait and see .....or not

 

[Imgormiel]

But what is clear from the array of posts is the ubah aoe resists littered throughout, interesting debate.

 

[Sanzor]

Sigh...poeple whining about Thanes not having Determ for mezz. Why do you damn...NOOOBS! know why healers or even SMs was equipped with unmezz ffs! >_<

God i hate that subject every time..

 

[yaruar]

Heh, well this argument slightly got off the point, and introduced other points there that have yet to be discovered.

The thing is mid is changing, it's not that obvious in behavior but the game has changed things since TOA and what i would find interesting is how this whole arguement will change when Frontiers arrives - if at all. Thanes are getting determination as well all know by now. But will attitudes change along with this new part of the game due to arrive? Perhaps.

What interests me is how mid will or will not change on this server with the arrival of frontiers in the future and how peeps would have responded to the original post in the begining had this been at the time of frontiers. I guess we'll wait and see .....or not

I think a lot of people are going to have to change their attitudes a lot in new frontiers. Determination has been nerfed into the ground so that i would be suprised if anyone takes it. There will be a lot more keep warefare and for that warriors, savages, et al will just be reduced to the level of door bashers and siege operators and ranged attackers will be kings. I'm sure the gank groups will still find their new emain to roam in but I suspect the majority of people (who currently don't regularly RvR) will start playing a much more tactical game.

 

[anubis]

Lol, why on earth exclude thanes on normal raids? You probably just heard they suck, and then theyre not allowed? - The only real reason they are considdered that is because of the lack of Determination.. where on earth do u need it for in pve? :x

dragon chain stuns for 30 seconds

 

[Summoner]

dragon chain stuns for 30 seconds

Exactly and i dont accept thanes for guild DRs too unless for dog hunting pursose.
The only non-deter dmg dealer which are allowed for DR is a hunter.

 

[Marczje]

Exactly and i dont accept thanes for guild DRs too unless for dog hunting pursose.
The only non-deter dmg dealer which are allowed for DR is a hunter.

hrm, never been on a dr before soz *blush*

 

[Vaar]

I think a lot of people are going to have to change their attitudes a lot in new frontiers. Determination has been nerfed into the ground so that i would be suprised if anyone takes it. There will be a lot more keep warefare and for that warriors, savages, et al will just be reduced to the level of door bashers and siege operators and ranged attackers will be kings. I'm sure the gank groups will still find their new emain to roam in but I suspect the majority of people (who currently don't regularly RvR) will start playing a much more tactical game.

Hard to guess how NF will turn out. MY guess is that it will be more lager fights, so the pure melee chars will not shine like they can today. However there will be a lot of roles for the tanks, both in attacking and defending keep. The best ones will adapt quick, the "follow-the-road-in-Emain" groups will have it kind of hard at first

But to this treads original point. To exclude Thanes or bd's from a dragonraid is kind of leet'ish. Allowed ofc, but a bit cheep in my mind. It seems like after an discussion cemi0 found that it would not compromize the successrate of his setup to allow, in this given situation, thanes as guard... Excellent. Lets all be friends...

Then there is the Khrin/Anyu discussion which displays the two different views on how you should play the game. Both makes sense, and both argues adequatly for their viewpoint (with the exception of the lame "guild comment"...)

As a truely casual player, and a low RR thane as well, I feel like the discussion really is ABOUT me. And from MY point of view, nobody with a *eh* creative spec/class should EVER excpect to get invited to the true gankgroups. WHY THE H... Would they sacrifice their efficency for RR PL'ing? Gankgroups are fine with me. They do not interfere that much in my playtime anyway, and I can live with the occational STOPZ LEEACHING NOOB, if my group misjudges an fight. So let the leet be leet, NP (pun intended)

What I think Anyu do not truly realize is that this "leet" attitude spreads quick, and it has big impact. What thanes must face in Emain, is that even low/mid RR-PUG's refuse to take *insert unwanted class/spec/artifactmissing chars*. The unofficial world reccord is from a RR1 thane from Merlin who from 24 hours of waiting/lfg in Emain got 3 invites... (after 3 hours with none, he decided make it a "24h-test"). THAT is the bad part about beeing a thane (bd/hunter/sb/supp sm). YEP its a free world, everybody is allowed to aim for those ultimate setups, but with the current situation where so many classes gets shafted in RvR, something IS wrong. You can blame Mythic, but is part a community issue as well.

To PvE. To exclude anyone from a group in PvE (concidering you got the bases decently covered), is even worse. Thanes fare well in PvE by and large, so for ME that has never been a problem. But some months back a new Daoc player started up a supp Sm, he soloed to lvl 40'ish, because NOONE ever wanted him in the group. I grouped with him on occantions, but it seemed like nobody else did. Needless to say he quit Daoc, because it was a shitty game.

Even in the high end of PvE, its seems kind of odd. I have yet to see the ML-group step which NEEDS an opted/Ubergeared/fixed spec setup to be completed. Ofc I only have done like half of the ML's, but anyway.

To get certain artys you will need a good setup, or "larger" numbers. Some choose to run maxed groups to have a bigger shot on the goodies. OK again that is allowed, but I do not see how a 4% larger chance to land thoose sleeves or that ring, really should matter. AGAIN EXCLUDING the Uber-lEEt-FOOK-offnOOb-MYCaaamp-NeeD-2-ZahursRING-fOr-MY-GOOOOOD-mode-Guildgroups. For the rest of us (some estimates says that ~6% are powergamers) I can only advice to keep an open mind.

And finally. To thoose of you which are tired of hearing the underpowereds ranting. Gratz on picking the right trainer back then I thought that Frode looked like a nice guy... Rerolling are not an option for some of us. We must try to make the best of the current situation. If THAT includes to work on peoples prejudcies (sp???), well we will try.

 

[Imon]

my thane had no problem to get into "fotm only leet ppl" dragonraids and entrance guarder. maby u just suck?

Can you be any more stupid?
WTF is the point of posting a personal insult of a guy you never heard of or know?
But i bet you act like this when you´re on the pub aswell... if you ever get out



And not taking thanes in are....... argh
i rest my case
fotm ppl

 

[Summoner]

You can use a thane on Zahur encounter as i've tanking Zahur with my thane plenty of times. It's np if thane is suited and knows what to do and still as good as warrior.
But you cannot use thane on DR, Anubis explained why so dont whine etc. Option "Lets take 6 thanes instead of 2 warriors" is not smart as well cos Dragon drops 25 stones each kind, no more, no less. Another drawback is that Dragon's ae is getting more powerful if you bring more ppl along into Lair.
Take 2 animists, 1 pow bot and 22 thanes, should work great.

 

[yaruar]

You can use a thane on Zahur encounter as i've tanking Zahur with my thane plenty of times. It's np if thane is suited and knows what to do and still as good as warrior.
But you cannot use thane on DR, Anubis explained why so dont whine etc. Option "Lets take 6 thanes instead of 2 warriors" is not smart as well cos Dragon drops 25 stones each kind, no more, no less. Another drawback is that Dragon's ae is getting more powerful if you bring more ppl along into Lair.
Take 2 animists, 1 pow bot and 22 thanes, should work great.

I agree that thanes can't replace a warrior because of the stun (unless you actually have healers who know whee their demezz button is ;-) ) but i've played entrance guard before and that's been fine. from what i can see, ranged dd, 1 insta dd, one insta pbae, decent meelee and lots of hits makes us ideal. Anyone who has grouped with a thane will know they are uber at drawing and keeping aggro and can drop mobs pretty quickly.

 

[Vaar]

You can use a thane on Zahur encounter as i've tanking Zahur with my thane plenty of times. It's np if thane is suited and knows what to do and still as good as warrior.
But you cannot use thane on DR, Anubis explained why so dont whine etc. Option "Lets take 6 thanes instead of 2 warriors" is not smart as well cos Dragon drops 25 stones each kind, no more, no less. Another drawback is that Dragon's ae is getting more powerful if you bring more ppl along into Lair.
Take 2 animists, 1 pow bot and 22 thanes, should work great.

Yep. Me and you BOTH know that a thane can tank zahur. (Btw, its also possible to die to Zahur as a thane from personal experience) BUT MANY do not acnowledge that fact... Thats the point.

And you and me BOTH know that you can NOT use a Thane to tank the dragon very well, and that has never been disputed, by Yaruar or anyone. But to exclude a Thane as a doggyguard, thats excemplifies part of the community attitude thanes have to face -> The LeeT dudes say that Thanes suck in RvR. Therfore they MUST be excluded from all groups, no matter what the goal is...

Too many have that opinion.

 

[Summoner]

i've been guarding enrance on DR a few times as a thane too have caught lotsa dogs, I'd say thane is as good dog hunter as a skald. I've been in grp even once on DR beeing cba to log and grab deter tank. It's still np too but not recommended.
Nevertheless raid leader is supposed to make his own schema for his DR. Mb he sees any weakness of using a thane for dog hunter spot. I personaly dont.

yaruar, stun effect cannot be removed by any spell by purge. Even if you have purge it's still a problem cos Dragon spams ae stun like a mad. It lasts 30sec - deter - resists. So 15s on thane in avarage. Consider that it's gonna happend again when stun immunity is gone.

 

[yaruar]

i've been guarding enrance on DR a few times as a thane too have caught lotsa dogs, I'd say thane is as good dog hunter as a skald. I've been in grp even once on DR beeing cba to log and grab deter tank. It's still np too but not recommended.
Nevertheless raid leader is supposed to make his own schema for his DR. Mb he sees any weakness of using a thane for dog hunter spot. I personaly dont.

yaruar, stun effect cannot be removed by any spell by purge. Even if you have purge it's still a problem cos Dragon spams ae stun like a mad. It lasts 30sec - deter - resists. So 15s on thane in avarage. Consider that it's gonna happend again when stun immunity is gone.

fair enough with the stun, but as you say thanes make good door guards. AFAIR the leader of this raid said that his not thinking of thanes for this is because he doesn't actually know much about thanes. I think this is indicitive of the problem, thanes have been badmouthed for years so people just ignore them in everything. A lot of newish players will have never even played with a thane and when everyone and his dog is saying that "thanes are just crap mezzbreakers" they don't know any better. Earlier in this thread one of the commenters said thanes bring "nothing" to 8v8 RvR which is blatent bull. A well played thane brings a lot, sure they can't out DPS a savage or a pure caster, but they can do a number of things that no other class can. Their melee is subpar and their casting isn't great (although a lot better than it was a year ago) but no other class has the choice of one or the other to use. I can't even count the number of times i've seen supposedly perfect set up melee groups obliterated by a hib pbaoe box. It's amazing how much easier it is to kill them when they are being interrupted almost constantly...

 

[anubis]

a) u cant cure stun
b) healers dont have det either, so they stay in stun for the same amount of time as thanes

it's necessary to have as many det tanks on dragon raid as possible
sure u can put thanes/skalds/sbs/etc in g2 or g3, but then you need very good g1 and experienced people in all grps, who been on dr several times, so know when to run from glare/pbae etc

 

[Buffer]

But some months back a new Daoc player started up a supp Sm, he soloed to lvl 40'ish, because NOONE ever wanted him in the group. I grouped with him on occantions, but it seemed like nobody else did. Needless to say he quit Daoc, because it was a shitty game.

U kidding me, virtually from the day i rolled my supp sm i was getting spammed for group invites,pwrlvl me pls, even as low as lvl 30. hardly a day goes past without me being asked to join a group in mod. I dont know the guy but maybe it was his attitude. Are u sure he was supp and not summoning?

 

[Vaar]

But some months back a new Daoc player started up a supp Sm, he soloed to lvl 40'ish, because NOONE ever wanted him in the group. I grouped with him on occantions, but it seemed like nobody else did. Needless to say he quit Daoc, because it was a shitty game.

U kidding me, virtually from the day i rolled my supp sm i was getting spammed for group invites,pwrlvl me pls, even as low as lvl 30. hardly a day goes past without me being asked to join a group in mod. I dont know the guy but maybe it was his attitude. Are u sure he was supp and not summoning?

aaaargh. Sorry mistype. Sum SM... Nice guy but wrong spec. Thx for correcting.

 

[Svartmetall]

"pwrlvl me pls" isn't really a group invite.

...

 

[harebear]

well the guys asking to join so it is imo problem is when exping the summ sms cant really do that much in groups but still it sucks ;(

 

[Sanzor]

well the guys asking to join so it is imo problem is when exping the summ sms cant really do that much in groups but still it sucks ;(

>_<

He can rezz :-P

 

[cemi0]

You can use a thane on Zahur encounter as i've tanking Zahur with my thane plenty of times. It's np if thane is suited and knows what to do and still as good as warrior.
But you cannot use thane on DR, Anubis explained why so dont whine etc. Option "Lets take 6 thanes instead of 2 warriors" is not smart as well cos Dragon drops 25 stones each kind, no more, no less. Another drawback is that Dragon's ae is getting more powerful if you bring more ppl along into Lair.
Take 2 animists, 1 pow bot and 22 thanes, should work great.

6 thanes doesnt work out either. Cause when they get stunned and nuked in the zerg it kinda sucks still.

Bonedancers are allowed on my raids. Both as gateguards and got a spot doing dmg aswell.

 

[yaruar]

6 thanes doesnt work out either. Cause when they get stunned and nuked in the zerg it kinda sucks still.

Bonedancers are allowed on my raids. Both as gateguards and got a spot doing dmg aswell.

bd as damage dealer unless they have mw, although wasn't that nerfed? bd's only real advantage outside of gatekeeper would be the abs buff.

 

[harebear]

pretty sure the resist rate on BDs spells is quite high V all mighty ladeh oO

 

[Buffer]

"pwrlvl me pls" isn't really a group invite.

...

Yes i know but the point i was trying to make was that suppression sms are near enough always wanted for a group, or always being asked to help etc. Is one of those classes that are desired by people, unlike thanes/hunters/sbs etc(and im not knocking any class here).

 

[Himse]

cemi0 its not right really to not allow thanes on ur raids, thanes are tbh a good class but just no det. :x dunno why u don't allow thanes as they can do some serious damage

 

[Fenderon]

Himse, if you actually read previous posts it says why thanes have not been invited on cemi0s DRs.

and if I'm not mistaking he also said there will be room for thanes on future DRs.

 

[Sanzor]

dragon chain stuns for 30 seconds

But as you keep stunning on targets...they got more immune?
Besides..the stun don´t last that long of what i remember.

 

[Aeicaan]

why are you poking yourself in your eyes at your avatar?
is it the new fotm?

 

[Summoner]

But as you keep stunning on targets...they got more immune?
Besides..the stun don´t last that long of what i remember.

u guess - i know
that's the difference

Thane is sh1t dmg dealer, warrior too, savages/zerkers deal most dmg on Dragon. Thane has low ws -> miss a lot.
Beside thane cannot grab aggro, cannot guard properly because of lower shield spec and longer durration stun -> no use on DR unless for guarding exits where thane serves fine.