Forum fun...

[Grits]

Overly simplistic tbh. The real US contribution to the specifically British (rather than "Allied") war effort was in the Battle of The Atlantic, and here, the British could have lost the war (and almost did.), even as late as 1943. Its extremely unlikely the Germans could ever have successfully invaded the UK, but they could definitely have forced an armistice (don't forget that's pretty much what brought the Germans to the negotiating table in WWI; they weren't defeated militarily, they were starved into submission).

These forum debates about who won the war are always overly-simplistic; a lot of the key turning points in the war were as much to do with luck and timing as anything else; but there's one truism that always cuts through the arguments; the British gave time, the Soviets gave blood, and the Americans gave treasure. Unfortunately, amongst the allies the British could definitely be said to have lost the war, although even there, it may have been a blessing because we got out of the empire business (which had been loss-making for nearly half a century before WWII) fairly painlessly compared to other empires.

I think this is spot on. I said in my first post here that we Americans got into the fight too late, but we did get into the fight and it made a difference. In addition to the Battle of the Atlantic we also made a huge contribution to the strategic air war over Germany. My point about the Soviets is, yeah they did by far the most damage to Germany in Europe, but they didnt do it because they were an "ally" of the Brits, that was just an unfortunate (for them) side effect, whereas the US was doing it to help their Allies. Churchill was right about Stalin, he was not an Ally he only had a common enemy.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

Actually, the Polish pilots were the aces in the Battle of Britain. They kicked ass

WTF? There's that defeatist attitude again. Don't sell yourselves short. You guys fucking kicked ass in the BoB. I believe your PM at the time called it your "finest hour."

 

[old.Tohtori]

Fun little "off topic"2 fact on the war;

Germany shot themselves in the leg at the start of the war, because they trained Finnish pilots in aerial combat.

Finnish pilots were good, but the german contribution to their skills(as germans were really good at that) surely effected the cmobats at a later date.

 

[FWNuke]

If the Russians hadn't have pitched in the way they did Hitler would have won. They did far more than the US did to win the war.

America was late (again). You joined after the war was already won. All the US did was shorten (albeit considerably) a war that was already won.

Everyone in Britain knows this. In fact, everyone in every European country knows this. We're fucked off with ignorant yanks who think they "won the war" for us.

We're not fans of the US because you think you're more important than you are. When I was over in the US, on more than one occasion I had people come up to me and ask me to say "thanks" for "winning the war for us".

You didn't. You were late. You should have joined much earlier. The war was already won.

We appreciate the help you gave, we really do, but get fucked tbfh

LOL! The Russians "pitched in"? The Russians were on Germany's side. They entered the war with Germany and you complain that America entered late?

We should have just kicked the shit out of Japan and left you guys alone in Europe.

Russia did not sacrifice or do anything for anyone else, they simply were defending themselves. The Americans fought on fronts all over the world, the Russians fought in Russia for themselves.

 

[Grits]

Not WWII, but I'll tell you Limeys a story about your modern pilots.

My Dad was a US Marine A-4 Skyhawk pilot, in the mid '80s they participated in a joint exercise in Nevada, Red Flag, and their were RAF Tornado squadrons there. One mission involved NOE ingress to the target over a ridge. As the A-4 flight popped over the ridge they rolled inverted to pull over the top. They were around 200ft AGL when they went over and as they did a Tornado flight went by UNDER them at around 100ft AGL.

You may have bad teeth and bland food, but my Dad always had the utmost respect for your pilots.

 

[Grits]

Russia did not sacrifice or do anything for anyone else, they simply were defending themselves. The Americans fought on fronts all over the world, the Russians fought in Russia for themselves.

Exactly. The Soviets wouldnt even join the war against Japan when they were completely and totally defeated. They didnt do anything for their "allies". Yes it did help western Europe, but that was not their intent. Do any of you think Stalin pressed so hard for a second front in the west because he wanted to free France? Hell no, he wanted to divert German manpower to make his conquest of eastern Europe easier.

 

[FWNuke]

I have read Churchill's "Memoirs of the Second World War" two times. I am shocked at how some of you Brits could think that Russia helped you win the war.

The Russians were begging the Allies to open a second front. Stalin was desperate for a second front, but we were not ready to invade from the UK. Instead we went into Africa as a holding measure.

Do you realize how much America produced during the war? You do know that we were fighting on pretty much all fronts, all over the world, right? We didn't have to do that.

The Russians can fuck off and die for all I care. The Russians are not your friends and they are not ours friends.

The US and UK are friends. We are brothers. Nobody is saying that Britain did not do a great job in WWII. America did a great job too. The Russians are assholes.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

Nuke... I will go one further and say that the Soviets didn't fight any harder than any of us would to defend our homeland. They were tenacious bastards when they had their backs against the wall but they were cowardly fucks raping women and murdering children in Berlin.

 

[DaGaffer]

Not WWII, but I'll tell you Limeys a story about your modern pilots.

My Dad was a US Marine A-4 Skyhawk pilot, in the mid '80s they participated in a joint exercise in Nevada, Red Flag, and their were RAF Tornado squadrons there. One mission involved NOE ingress to the target over a ridge. As the A-4 flight popped over the ridge they rolled inverted to pull over the top. They were around 200ft AGL when they went over and as they did a Tornado flight went by UNDER them at around 100ft AGL.

You may have bad teeth and bland food, but my Dad always had the utmost respect for your pilots.

Unfortunately all that low flying expertise (designed to get through the Fulda Gap and under Soviet radars in Eastern Europe) was for nought when the technique was discredited in Gulf War I when they kept flying straight into sand dunes. The RAF has terrific pilots, shit doctrine and indifferent aircraft (Eurofighter is "OK" but not massively better than its current gen rivals, although its a third of the price of a Raptor).

 

[old.Tohtori]

they were cowardly fucks raping women and murdering children in Berlin.

Do we really want to go there? One word would have you in arms, but since you want; vietnam.

Every troops have their bad seeds.

Nuke, the blind attitude you have towards russians is the reason many percieve your nation poorly. It's time to let things go and move to the modern day world.

i don't consider all americans fat, lazy reality tv munching idiots, even if things like this could give me reason to do so, maybe you shouldn't do so based on years of propaganda either.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

So this is what it's come to? The height sophistication is to empathize with your enemies, embrace your shortcomings with a shrug and distance yourself from and play down the importance of your true allies... Down is up and slavery is freedom. Have you ever read the Communist Manifesto? It's a quick easy read. Even you sophisticated folk could probably muddle through it...

 

[FWNuke]

Do we really want to go there? One word would have you in arms, but since you want; vietnam.

Every troops have their bad seeds.

Nuke, the blind attitude you have towards russians is the reason many percieve your nation poorly. It's time to let things go and move to the modern day world.

i don't consider all americans fat, lazy reality tv munching idiots, even if things like this could give me reason to do so, maybe you shouldn't do so based on years of propaganda either.

My blind attitude? Maybe you should get your eyes checked.

1. Russia enters war on Germany's side
2. Russia begs for help when Germany turns on them.


After the war, Russia puts up the "Iron Curtain" while America helps rebuild Europe and you think the Russians are your friends? How old are you? Are you even slightly versed in history?

What have the Russians ever done for anybody? Can you name one thing they have done for anyone? They have been responsible for millions of murders of their own people, they murdered thousands of Polish officers, they put millions of people under their yoke and forced them to live in complete misery.

Russia has been nothing more than a roadblock to progress and freedom in this world, even today.

 

[StRaNgEdAyS]

FWIW Russia didn't beg for help, it was offered and they took it.

 

[FWNuke]

FWIW Russia didn't beg for help, it was offered and they took it.

Not true. Stalin may not have begged, but he DEMANDED a second front RIGHT NOW.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

The common theme here seems to be that if an objective presents itself to be difficult, your lot can't be "arsed" with it. Good luck with that attitude.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

Not true. Stalin may not have begged, but he DEMANDED a second front RIGHT NOW.

Uncle Joe begs no one. But there you go with that revisionist history again Nuke.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Interesting how you both ignored what was said and turned it into something completely different.

Nuke, you have a blind attitude since you think ww russians are the same as modern russians. I've already pointed out what has cmoe out of russia, but you ignored it. It's also been pointed out that without russians, Hitler could've easily won. Ignored again. That's blind hate.

Slug, all i countered is your "murderers and rapists" claim, and pointed out how your troops did the same in a more recent war.

It's not come down to anything, and it's not about sympathising with the enemy, it's about realising that the second world war has been over for decades and the enemy isn't the enemy anymore.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

Nuke... What they are trying to say... Is if someone who has had their boot on your neck for fifty years loses their resolve, you should sit next to them at lunch. It's that whole "I will extend my arm if you will unclench your fist" mindset.

 

[Scouse]

WTF? There's that defeatist attitude again. Don't sell yourselves short. You guys fucking kicked ass in the BoB. I believe your PM at the time called it your "finest hour."

It was. But I'm not so blinded by nationality that I underestimate the efforts of others.

British pilots were being whacked up with just a few weeks training - and were expected to be dead just a few weeks after that because of their inexperience.

I don't "love my country". Never did. I, like most Brits, wouldn't be dumb enough to whack a Union Flag up in our front gardens. We're past that as a people. I don't care where people are from, and the Polish pilots were by far and away the best...

 

[dysfunction]

We should have just kicked the shit out of Japan...

You did exactly that by dropping 2 nuclear bombs on them... which was a disgrace really...

 

[Scouse]

murdering children in Berlin.

As opposed to murdering children in Iraq or Afghanistan (and Vietnam whilst we're at it)?

I'm ashamed of both of our countries. Even the old outgoing chairman of the Fed said he found it embarrassing that it is a war over oil but the political classes are too scared to tell the public...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Nuke... What they are trying to say... Is if someone who has had their boot on your neck for fifty years loses their resolve, you should sit next to them at lunch. It's that whole "I will extend my arm if you will unclench your fist" mindset.

I don't speak for everyone here, i speak for myself. Would be interesting if i spoke for the british people as i'm not british.

Also it's not what i'm saying, i'm saying that the hatred towards russians today isn't logical if you base it on history alone, which it seems to derive from.

 

[FWNuke]

Interesting how you both ignored what was said and turned it into something completely different.

Nuke, you have a blind attitude since you think ww russians are the same as modern russians. I've already pointed out what has cmoe out of russia, but you ignored it. It's also been pointed out that without russians, Hitler could've easily won. Ignored again. That's blind hate.

Slug, all i countered is your "murderers and rapists" claim, and pointed out how your troops did the same in a more recent war.

It's not come down to anything, and it's not about sympathising with the enemy, it's about realising that the second world war has been over for decades and the enemy isn't the enemy anymore.

More like if Germany didn't invade Russia, they could have won the war. It was not Russia's altruistic helping hand. You make it sound as if Russia entered the war to help against Germany. The Russians were complete bastards and they would have happily watched you guys go down while they divided up Europe.

Today, Russia is not much better. They are still a roadblock to progress and peace and they still try to dominate and intimidate their neighbors. They still use their gas and oil as a weapon against their "friends" in Europe.

Russia and China consistently go against the UN when ever they vote on sanctions against countries like Iraq, North Korea, Iraq and others. Sometimes our good friends, the French, join them.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

I suppose it means nothing that the German army ran west in mass to surrender to the Americans rather than face the Soviets... As you said, there are bad apples in every army, but the Soviets did what they did as SOP. How many guns, boats and how much ammo and fuel did the Soviets give gB before 1944?

As far as forgive and forget.. Japan and Germany today are two of our closest allies. It seems your lot never learns. You will be doomed to repeat history over and over. How's that EU working out for you? While you are singing the praises of the former Soviet Union, Russia is re-arming itself. They were humiliated in the Cold War. Does any of this sound familiar? I just hope we have the good sense to stay out of your mess this time.

 

[old.Tohtori]

More like if Germany didn't invade Russia, they could have won the war. It was not Russia's altruistic helping hand. You make it sound as if Russia entered the war to help against Germany. The Russians were complete bastards and they would have happily watched you guys go down while they divided up Europe.

Today, Russia is not much better. They are still a roadblock to progress and peace and they still try to dominate and intimidate their neighbors. They still use their gas and oil as a weapon against their "friends" in Europe.

Russia and China consistently go against the UN when ever they vote on sanctions against countries like Iraq, North Korea, Iraq and others. Sometimes our good friends, the French, join them.

Did i ever claim that they came to the resque? No, i said that the russians had a hand in it all. Be it passive or aggressive, still they affected the end result.

About gas and oil intimidation, well, let's look at the US hmm?

Neither again what i was saying.

Slug, again, no one is praising russia, i was pointing out that your blind hate is nothing but a flip side of the coin. Pointless.

But all said and done, i don't blame you two, children of propaganda really. It would be a bit much to expect you to go against your whole raising, family and friends and accept that tings aren't as the past haters would make you believe.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

You all need to read this to see what has been done to you.

Amazon.com: Rules for Radicals (9780679721130): Saul Alinsky: Books

 

[FWNuke]

As opposed to murdering children in Iraq or Afghanistan (and Vietnam whilst we're at it)?

I'm ashamed of both of our countries. Even the old outgoing chairman of the Fed said he found it embarrassing that it is a war over oil but the political classes are too scared to tell the public...

There is no oil in Afghanistan and we have not seen a drop out of Iraq. In a way, it was about oil though.

When Iraq invaded Kuwait, they did it over disputes about oil. The allies went in to protect the oil supply. Saddam had his finger within reach of a significant percentage of the world's oil supply. We went in, kicked Saddam out, then left. We didn't take anyone's oil, we just removed a threat to the oil supply.

We went back into Iraq after years and years of Saddam ignoring sanctions and screwing with UN inspections...at one point he kicked them all out of Iraq. Still, no oil for us. Iraq awarded a lot of oil contracts to other counties though.

As far as murdering people, we don't do that. I'm sure a few scattered incidents have happened that we are responsible for, but that's war and people tend to go a little crazy in war. Overall, we actually take great care (and even risk) by going out of our way not to hit innocent people.

Russia actually deliberately murdered millions of people.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Slug and you need to read about real history, not what is taught at US schools.

Nuke, they murdered their own people, not to mention in the war time it was back 60 years. The amount of civilian casualties in the Vietnam war(not to mention mosntrosities) and Iraq war is much more severe since it's modern day warfare.

If you think only other countries act wrong in wars, or that rapist and babhykillers are only in other countries warfare, you are blinded by the propaganda.

 

[Son of Sluggish]

Did i ever claim that they came to the resque? No, i said that the russians had a hand in it all. Be it passive or aggressive, still they affected the end result.

About gas and oil intimidation, well, let's look at the US hmm?

Neither again what i was saying.

Slug, again, no one is praising russia, i was pointing out that your blind hate is nothing but a flip side of the coin. Pointless.

But all said and done, i don't blame you two, children of propaganda really. It would be a bit much to expect you to go against your whole raising, family and friends and accept that tings aren't as the past haters would make you believe.

The fact that you think Nuke and I are victims of propaganda is the height of irony. I feel now that I may have fallen prey to some of that famously obscure British humor.

 

[FWNuke]

Slug and you need to read about real history, not what is taught at US schools.

Nuke, they murdered their own people, not to mention in the war time it was back 60 years. The amount of civilian casualties in the Vietnam war(not to mention mosntrosities) and Iraq war is much more severe since it's modern day warfare.

If you think only other countries act wrong in wars, or that rapist and babhykillers are only in other countries warfare, you are blinded by the propaganda.

Can you name one thing I said that is not "real" history?