Rant flipping embarrassing!

[old.Tohtori]

Toht, for the love of god, we are not arguing against a voluntary national Id card. We are arguing against what has been proposed and is going ahead here in the UK. If you cannot understand that simple point, then maybe you should stop debating this?

Maybe you should get that you're not the only one on this thread.

You're the one who is pushing the mandatory in all corners, just to justify your position.

"What about non mandatory?"
"Well it is mandatory!"
"Yes, but what about non mandatory?"
"BUT IT IS!!!!"

It is possible to discuss more then your view you know.

 

[Ch3tan]

You mean all the British people arguing against the proposed UK scheme? You quoted me directly, the quoted moose talking about the same point, so how should I read that you are referring to someone else?


Meh, enough time wasting with the troll /ignore you go.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Meh, enough time wasting with the troll /ignore you go.

Well, be a child then.

This isn't a thread about your datacard, the ID card discussion didn't even stem from that. YOU made it into your little world, so how about YOU take a f*cking break from your trolling.

 

[Zenith.UK]

So I go off to my local shop last night, where I have been going for years btw, to buy some tobacco and I get ID'd ... "are you serious, I'm 30" I reply to which my attention is directed to a poster for 'drink aware' saying you must have passport, drivers license or other holographic ID...my student union card, although it has a photo of me and my DOB is not valid...(I point out that the poster is for alcohol but no dice) "But I'm 30! why the hell would I be carrying ID to buy tobacco from this shop when I've been buying it from here for years??" I ask, in short I was told tough.

Okay, I have sympathy with you about being asked for ID. If you're over 30 then you shouldn't *need* to provide evidence of ID. The fact that you were asked tells me that you must look younger than 25... take that as a compliment if you will.

The shop is under a lot of regulatory scrutiny. Many shops use Challenge 21 or even 25 now because the punishments for non-compliance with Licencing laws. If a shop sells a licenced product to someone under age, the person who sold the item can be fined £80 on the spot, the manager can be fined up to £5000 and the shop can have it's licence suspended for a period of time, or even revoked for repeated offences.

A large store chain like Sainsbury can't take that chance so it has an overkill policy on checking for ID.

I'm also deliberately staying out of the ID card discussion.

 

[soze]

An extra card that I have to carry around in my (already over-stuffed) wallet. It also serves no real purpose as I already carry my driver's license around for ID. Also it costs me around £40.

Wow that sounds awesome, sign me up!

Actually it would replace your Drivers Licence which also costs. So you have a card with the potential to do more that is harder to hack for a few quid more.

 

[mooSe_]

Actually it would replace your Drivers Licence which also costs. So you have a card with the potential to do more that is harder to hack for a few quid more.

ahh I see, not so bad then

 

[Vasconcelos]

To add some more utility, I dont know in the rest of EU countires, but over here you can do shit loads of online administrative tasks with your ID personal digital certificate (chip) comfortable from your home: official requests, paying taxes, electronic signing of documents, aquiring licenses (like private parking), to mention a few...

I think thats great!

But I do understand that as long as we EU aliens dont know whats the UK ID initiative, and how many personal data will store, we have somewhat an incomplete opinion. Tho, if it were just name, birthdate, birthplace, address and personal digital certificate, I dont see wheres the harm...

 

[old.Tohtori]

But we're not talking about the EU card! We're talking about the UK card! *stomps foot* Meh!

...

Ok i'm done

 

[Genedril]

Easy way to do it is to stop fining shops for supply & fine those that lie about their age for attempting to acquire, after all they're the real culprits.

£500 fine for purchasing or possession of cigarettes under the age of 16.
£1,000 fine for purchasing or possession of alcohol under the age of 18.

Parents liable for the fine when kids can't pay - then it's up to the parents to sort their kids out.

Let shopkeepers do their job of selling things & stop have them enforce laws.

(Yes I drank before the legal age & yes I knew I was breaking the law).

The UK national ID card & associated database is just a joke that's not even worth talking about & if you don't know what the thing entails then why even keep debating it's merits? It's not really an ID card but just data gathering on a huge scale with a card attached.

Ohh & back to the topic - Ez did the right thing: Complain. You're a consumer & you consume both their products & their service. If you're not satisfied then exercise your consumer rights & stop shopping there & complain. If they don't provide satisfactory answers then tell other people about the service there. Word of mouth is quite effective.

 

[Turamber]

I dont rly know what a dictator who died 33 years go has to do with IDs... in fact there were already ID cards (tho non electronic) in his years.

Hopefully, we live in 2010

That was kind of the point. If you think that dictators and oppressive governments are a thing of the past then one can only summise you are very naive, or young, possibly both.

 

[Jeros]

The goverment already knows or can easily get to:

Your address
Your D.O.B
Your Place of birth
Your family details, spouse, children etc.
Your blood type
Your medical history
Your criminal record
Your tax details
Your income details
Your asset details
This list goes on and on

Hell if the goverment could NOT get access to any of the above details i would call them incompetant in the extreme. Its called running a country.

If they want my DNA/fingerprints or whatever (my fingerprints are probs still on file from when i was present at a crime scene), and want me to carry a card to say who i am, fair enough.

They already know EVERYTHING about me and my family.

Just putting it into perspective.

 

[GReaper]

Similar experiences by other shoppers in the UK are here: Prove your age to buy cheddar in barmy shop rules | The Sun |News The problem is not with the regulations about age, but with jobsworth employees. I am sure the employer would feel quite differently to the issue and the employees removed from their positions or warned not to be so darn stupid.

I think the problem is the fact that whenever things like this are given media attention, the employers say sorry - we have be very careful about who we sell alcohol to! The idiots start patting themselves on the backs about what a great job they're doing, even though they're becoming a bunch of jobsworths and can pretty much tell the person is at least over 18.

Complaining over this issue is pointless sadly.

 

[Ch3tan]

The goverment already knows or can easily get to:

Your address
Your D.O.B
Your Place of birth
Your family details, spouse, children etc.
Your blood type
Your medical history
Your criminal record
Your tax details
Your income details
Your asset details
This list goes on and on

Hell if the goverment could NOT get access to any of the above details i would call them incompetant in the extreme. Its called running a country.

If they want my DNA/fingerprints or whatever (my fingerprints are probs still on file from when i was present at a crime scene), and want me to carry a card to say who i am, fair enough.

They already know EVERYTHING about me and my family.

Just putting it into perspective.

None of this is centralised, and it is not easy for one government department to get access to the info held by another. The proposed database with the ID card would centralise EVERYTHING held about you that is on the card. This means that all that data about you would be in one place, oh and that data would be managed by a private company who has been given the contract.

Just to put your grossly inaccurate view into perspective.

 

[Ch3tan]

Hell if the goverment could NOT get access to any of the above details i would call them incompetant in the extreme. Its called running a country.

If they want my DNA/fingerprints or whatever (my fingerprints are probs still on file from when i was present at a crime scene), and want me to carry a card to say who i am, fair enough.

They already know EVERYTHING about me and my family.

Why does the government need to know everything about everyone to run the country? You actually think a government should have access to all your personal data in order to manage the country? The government is elected by the people to serve the people. Seems a lot of (young) people in this country don't remember that. Guess that is what comes of growing up under a labour government.

 

[Vasconcelos]

That was kind of the point. If you think that dictators and oppressive governments are a thing of the past then one can only summise you are very naive, or young, possibly both.

Or you are just being delusional or dont know me

Possibly both

 

[Vasconcelos]

Why does the government need to know everything about everyone to run the country? You actually think a government should have access to all your personal data in order to manage the country? The government is elected by the people to serve the people. Seems a lot of (young) people in this country don't remember that. Guess that is what comes of growing up under a labour government.

Just to get into UK perspective:

What are the details of the UK ID proposal? How much info does your goverment want to include in it?

 

[ford prefect]

Passport, drivers license, ID card. Three different things.

Actually, in the UK these are no longer as seperate as you would think. The DVLA, for example, who are responsible for driving licences, no longer require you to send in a photo to get a replacement photo part of the licence if you have a current valid passport, because they can just take the photo used on your passport from the passport offices server (had this done recently).

Some of the proposals for the UK national ID card run along the same ethos, whereby you basically carry around most of the information about you in a card form.

All this is however still besides the point. In a civilized society, nobody should have the authority to walk up to you and demand ID. If I don't wish to tell someone who I am (including the police), that is my right unless I am obviously breaking the law, and that is the way it should remain.

 

[Lethul]

Some people seem to think mainly Toht (and a bit of me) are arguing for the UK proposal cards. I think we mainly ask ourselfs (and you), why the fuck don't you have a simple ID card like other countries?

 

[Vasconcelos]

Some people seem to think mainly Toht (and a bit of me) are arguing for the UK proposal cards. I think we mainly ask ourselfs (and you), why the fuck don't you have a simple ID card like other countries?

I do agree tho, that we need feedback about what are they intending to put into UK ID, as it might be much more than just name, address, birthdate and digital signature

 

[ford prefect]

Some people seem to think mainly Toht (and a bit of me) are arguing for the UK proposal cards. I think we mainly ask ourselfs (and you), why the fuck don't you have a simple ID card like other countries?

I would ask, Why do you need one?

I can't honestly think of a use for one.

 

[Lethul]

I would ask, Why do you need one?

I can't honestly think of a use for one.

So you don't have to carry your passport around?
For exactly what happend to Ezteq for example.

 

[soze]

All this is however still besides the point. In a civilized society, nobody should have the authority to walk up to you and demand ID. If I don't wish to tell someone who I am (including the police), that is my right unless I am obviously breaking the law, and that is the way it should remain.

I already though if the police ask for your details and you refuse to give them over you can be arrested so they can identify you. Have seen it on Road Wars ect.

It really does boggle my mind why some people think having this card means that the police will turn into snatch squads. I know a few cops and the amount of paperwork involved in a stop and search is enough to mean they will not just stop people at random and then arrest them because they have no id. I really do struggle to see the problem with these cards the only argument that makes sense to me so far is Government costs.

I would ask, Why do you need one?

I can't honestly think of a use for one.

The main thing i like is a National Finger Print Database with how many crimes it could solve. With that too you also have the benefit of the police finger printing you to confirm ID so they do not need to waste time on these twats with no insurance one finger print swipe and they can confirm Licence Status and Insurance ect.

 

[ford prefect]

So you don't have to carry your passport around?
For exactly what happend to Ezteq for example.

No, I don't carry ID around with me at home, never have never will. I can't ever remember anyone questioning my age since I was maybe 12 years old.

I need my passposrt when I leave the UK, and thats it. If I am travelling through europe, yes I would carry it obviously, but that is the only time. Why else would I need to carry it?

I don't carry a driving licence with me either. If the police where to stop me for good reason, I would be entitled to produce my driving licence within seven days at a local police station.

As I said, I can't think of a single good reason to have a compulasary ID card. How do they help? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[ford prefect]

I already though if the police ask for your details and you refuse to give them over you can be arrested so they can identify you. Have seen it on Road Wars ect.

It really does boggle my mind why some people think having this card means that the police will turn into snatch squads. I know a few cops and the amount of paperwork involved in a stop and search is enough to mean they will not just stop people at random and then arrest them because they have no id. I really do struggle to see the problem with these cards the only argument that makes sense to me so far is Government costs.


The main thing i like is a National Finger Print Database with how many crimes it could solve. With that too you also have the benefit of the police finger printing you to confirm ID so they do not need to waste time on these twats with no insurance one finger print swipe and they can confirm Licence Status and Insurance ect.

Firstly the p;loice cannot arrest you without cause. They certainly can't arrest you because you are not carrying a driving licence or some other form of ID. Also you have a legal right not to answer any questions put to you, whether you have been arrested or not - see PACE (Police and Criminal Evidence Act)

I work with the police regularly, and trust me when I say that although they do a good job, there IS a LOT of ego involved. Specifically with the MET, they do stop and search at random, it is actually a standing order in central london.

 

[ford prefect]

The main thing i like is a National Finger Print Database with how many crimes it could solve. With that too you also have the benefit of the police finger printing you to confirm ID so they do not need to waste time on these twats with no insurance one finger print swipe and they can confirm Licence Status and Insurance ect.

Incidently there is a national fingerprint database, just like there is a national DNA database, and if you have been arrested in the past 10 years (six currently for the DNA database I believe), you will be on it.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Incidently there is a national fingerprint database, just like there is a national DNA database, and if you have been arrested in the past 10 years (six currently for the DNA database I believe), you will be on it.

DNA database? Then you are already much more controled than countries with just an ID card+fingerprint database.

Cant see the problem then on carrying a card that will solve a lot of paperwork, simplify procedures and be valid on situations like credit card payments, travelling abroad, online tasks with the local administration...

I asked it before, because we might be missing important info: is the UK goverment planning to introduce in UK ID card sensitive information besides name, address, birthplace/date and fingerprint?

 

[Ctuchik]

Heheh i love it when they card me at Systembolaget..

thats not because they think your underaged tho.

they have a blacklist they check.

 

[Ch3tan]

DNA database? Then you are already much more controled than countries with just an ID card+fingerprint database.

Cant see the problem then on carrying a card that will solve a lot of paperwork, simplify procedures and be valid on situations like credit card payments, travelling abroad, online tasks with the local administration...

I asked it before, because we might be missing important info: is the UK goverment planning to introduce in UK ID card sensitive information besides name, address, birthplace/date and fingerprint?

To clarify Vasc, the DNA database is for criminals, not everyone.

 

[ford prefect]

DNA database? Then you are already much more controled than countries with just an ID card+fingerprint database.

Cant see the problem then on carrying a card that will solve a lot of paperwork, simplify procedures and be valid on situations like credit card payments, travelling abroad, online tasks with the local administration...

I asked it before, because we might be missing important info: is the UK goverment planning to introduce in UK ID card sensitive information besides name, address, birthplace/date and fingerprint?

As I said, you are only on the DNA database if you have been arrested or submitted a DNA sample to the police for some other reason. The police are pushing for DNA to be stored permanently, but six years is the current limit, hopefully it will never be extended, but we will see.

As for the proposals on the cards, early proposals would have had biometric details and medical records too. Newer proposals are as you say, name, address DOB ect. That still doesn't make it right. The main point here is the word "Compulsary", it doesn't matter what is on the card, it is the fact that as a free citizen you are expected to carry it and someone in authority can demand to see it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Some people seem to think mainly Toht (and a bit of me) are arguing for the UK proposal cards. I think we mainly ask ourselfs (and you), why the fuck don't you have a simple ID card like other countries?

Exactly, but we musn't discuss anything outside the UK or any other thing that isn't sanctioned by the great state of Ch3tan

I would ask, Why do you need one?

I can't honestly think of a use for one.

No need for passprot carrying (because you haven't been asked for legal ID, doesn't mean they can't.). It's small, fits with rest of cards and is no problem(unless people make a mole hill into a pole up ze arse).

Perfect ID for people with no use for a passport or a don't have a drivers L.

Possibility to quickly check for a persons ID (police can verify your name, age etc). The police SHOULD have a right to stop and ask for ID, if yoiu haven't done anything wrong and it's done with a simple question, you shouldn't be against it.

No more trouble with prooving identity, anywhere, any time. No one can pose as you either and they can't be faked (ID chip would help in this, if the card itself only held the same info that is written). The ID chip would be unique and connected to a simple database(where there is only regular info of you).

Everyone who is against a simple ID card says the same things;

"I have a drivers license."

or

"I've never been IDd."

How about change that "i" into a nation wide, all people included situation and see the benefits. Those are not valid reasons for a national change unless I is a dictator.