Rant flipping embarrassing!

[old.Tohtori]

Two things there. In the UK many of us, myself included, do not agree with the idea of ID cards. They are a draconian measure implemented by governments that do not seek to be of the people and for the people, but to control the people.

They are based entirely on the concept that the populace cannot be trusted and it flies in the face of centuries of legal tradition and practice. I'm not the only one that would fight the introduction of an ID card, and not entirely on the basis that they simply don't work either.

They have your details, age, on it, it's easy to carry around(like a credit card), it works perfectly. It has no control aspects, nothing. Not one. They do have positive sides, like proving your age with ease, paramedics seeing who you are immediately etc.

There's no reason except paranoia to have this, and ofcourse the usual UK neysay to anything.

Give me one good reason why an ID card would be bad. It's not different from a driving lisence.

Time to get with the modern ages.

Similar experiences by other shoppers in the UK are here: Prove your age to buy cheddar in barmy shop rules | The Sun |News The problem is not with the regulations about age, but with jobsworth employees. I am sure the employer would feel quite differently to the issue and the employees removed from their positions or warned not to be so darn stupid.

Similar? Nothing similar there. Tobacco is prohibited, cheese isn't. If cheese required an ID, guess what, i'd have one with me at all times because i carry an ID card and it would be no trouble. If you have an issue with proving your age, you're having way too big issues with it. Law is law, don't like it? Move. Isn't that what the UK peeps tell muslims etc?

Big brother doesn't know where i am, there's no secret details here and it fits next to the atm card. No problems what so ever.

 

[Ezteq]

Write in and complain, the more detail the better so they can identify the pillock responsible. As a thirty year old you shouldn't be expected to carry ID with you, and whoever suggested otherwise is a prize dick.

Glad to see its not me being unreasonable! I was so glad when I hit 30, though now finally I am a grown up lol!

I did write a letter when I calmed down I realised that it wasn't the whole asking me for ID it was the way in which it was done and then when I was making a complaint the supervisor made me do it infront of all the other customers and was a real git about it lol...the fact that I am currently doing my marketing and customer service module helped me craft a really good complaint letter, hopefully they will buck their ideas up but I am still waaaay too embarrassed to go back in that store.

...which is a pain because that was my starbar pit stop! They'll miss me when they notice their starbar revenue has plummeted I tells ye!

 

[Ch3tan]

They have your details, age, on it, it's easy to carry around(like a credit card), it works perfectly. It has no control aspects, nothing. Not one. They do have positive sides, like proving your age with ease, paramedics seeing who you are immediately etc.

There's no reason except paranoia to have this, and ofcourse the usual UK neysay to anything.

Give me one good reason why an ID card would be bad. It's not different from a driving lisence.

Time to get with the modern ages.



Similar? Nothing similar there. Tobacco is prohibited, cheese isn't. If cheese required an ID, guess what, i'd have one with me at all times because i carry an ID card and it would be no trouble. If you have an issue with proving your age, you're having way too big issues with it. Law is law, don't like it? Move. Isn't that what the UK peeps tell muslims etc?

Big brother doesn't know where i am, there's no secret details here and it fits next to the atm card. No problems what so ever.

I don't want to be forced to legally carry and pay for an ID card I do not need, I have a passport and driving licence already. It is not going to stop terrorism, or illegal immigration. I do not want my biometric data stored by either a 3rd party company or our incompetent government with a piss poor track record of securing personal data.

You need to really read into what the ID card proposal in the UK is before you make comments like this.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't want to be forced to legally carry and pay for an ID card I do not need, I have a passport and driving licence already. It is not going to stop terrorism, or illegal immigration. I do not want my biometric data stored by either a 3rd party company or our incompetent government with a piss poor track record of securing personal data.

You need to really read into what the ID card proposal in the UK is before you make comments like this.

I wasn't commenting on the datacard(or whatnot) that the UK is suggesting, i'm talking about the EU ID card that works prefectly.

You don't need the card if you have a drivers lisence or a passport, but it's a simple and effective ID card to carry in your wallet or with your credit card(which people have almost 24/7).

There's no biometric stuff, there's no chip, and the data on the card is something that anyone can find out about you by digging your trash.

You lot need to put THAT forward, simple ID card that has basic details and is legal. Cost is maybe 40€ here, which lasts 10 years and is valid in the whole of EU.

It's not to stop terrorism or some other bull like that either, it's for convinience and aid.

 

[Ch3tan]

I wasn't commenting on the datacard(or whatnot) that the UK is suggesting, i'm talking about the EU ID card that works prefectly.

You don't need the card if you have a drivers lisence or a passport, but it's a simple and effective ID card to carry in your wallet or with your credit card(which people have almost 24/7).

There's no biometric stuff, there's no chip, and the data on the card is something that anyone can find out about you by digging your trash.

You lot need to put THAT forward, simple ID card that has basic details and is legal. Cost is maybe 40€ here, which lasts 10 years and is valid in the whole of EU.

It's not to stop terrorism or some other bull like that either, it's for convinience and aid.

we did not have a choice, Labour railroaded their Id card proposal through, it has already eaten a lot of money, and will eat a lot more assuming the next government do not scrap it (as the other parties have all suggested).

 

[old.Tohtori]

we did not have a choice, Labour railroaded their Id card proposal through, it has already eaten a lot of money, and will eat a lot more assuming the next government do not scrap it (as the other parties have all suggested).

I wouldn't underestimate the power the people can have.

Start spreading word that you don't want that idea going through, but because all of the money spent on it, it would be prudent to change the ID card proposal.

People saying "we don't want it", it becomes a negative outcry, but with enough people saying "We would like it to be implemented like this", it gives politicians something to think about.

For example;

If i wanted you to like a certain artist, i shouldn't say "You should listen to it, it's great! If you don't like it, you know nothing about music.", i should say "Have a listen to x song, might find it good, who knows."

 

[Ch3tan]

I wouldn't underestimate the power the people can have.

Start spreading word that you don't want that idea going through, but because all of the money spent on it, it would be prudent to change the ID card proposal.

People saying "we don't want it", it becomes a negative outcry, but with enough people saying "We would like it to be implemented like this", it gives politicians something to think about.

For example;

If i wanted you to like a certain artist, i shouldn't say "You should listen to it, it's great! If you don't like it, you know nothing about music.", i should say "Have a listen to x song, might find it good, who knows."

The reasons the other parties will scrap it is because the majority do not want it, those that do really have not looked into the idea enough, or believe the hype about it magically stopping illegal immigrants and terrorists.

The issue with our current government is that they are very good at ignoring public opinion, and have a whole host of anti-terror laws designed to silence us.

 

[Aoami]

The EU isn't exactly the most popular instituion in the UK, and the idea of an EU ID Card would be even more reviled by the general public than a UK one i'd expect.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The reasons the other parties will scrap it is because the majority do not want it, those that do really have not looked into the idea enough, or believe the hype about it magically stopping illegal immigrants and terrorists.

The issue with our current government is that they are very good at ignoring public opinion, and have a whole host of anti-terror laws designed to silence us.

The EU isn't exactly the most popular instituion in the UK, and the idea of an EU ID Card would be even more reviled by the general public than a UK one i'd expect.

Ah, those two explain it a bit more.

Guess i didn't know exactly HOW bad the situation is, i knew that the UK political scene was a bit off(from what i've read here), but that puts it into a whole new level of

Would have to think a bit more about how to change that, as it's basically an overhaul of the whole system.

 

[Ch3tan]

Our government uses the all powerful anti-terror laws to; spy on people not using their rubbish bins / recycling properly, lying about what postcode they live in to get their kids into better schools....

It's like Brown is using 1984 as a manual to build his perfect UK.

 

[Corran]

Our government uses the all powerful anti-terror laws to; spy on people not using their rubbish bins / recycling properly, lying about what postcode they live in to get their kids into better schools....

It's like Brown is using 1984 as a manual to build his perfect UK.

isnt the government as such.. it the local authorities that are "employed" by the government... and there are only certain councils that do that.

More to the point, the councils that do that are strictly breaking the law themselves because there are certain criteria that has to be applied to agree to a RIPA/RIPSA (RIPSA = scottish equivalent).

Unfortunately most councils have authorising officers that actually have no clue as to the criteria and you can put any request to them and they will sign it off. I know that was the case when I was employed in the fraud unit of my council. We always got requests agreed with no conditions put to them as well, even though we full well knew that there should have been conditions put to them to avoid encroucing on others privacy at the same time (ie not doing survaillence in an area of a school when it start/end times for pupils etc).

The UK is a mess to be honest, no-one has faith in government because everything they want to do they put some bullshit reason to it that is a pure coverscreen and people dont go for it. Due to this everything proposed gets looked at deeper then is necessary in other countries.

As previous people said, Bio-metric data on an ID card? how is this going to help stop terrorism? It a joke. And it a nice handy "all information in one place" for fraudsters.

 

[Turamber]

It's a horrible idea. Once implemented what measures are in place to stop them recording your religious denomination or who you voted for at the last elections? Who is to say that they won't include that information anyway? Horrendous idea.

 

[Vasconcelos]

It's a horrible idea. Once implemented what measures are in place to stop them recording your religious denomination or who you voted for at the last elections? Who is to say that they won't include that information anyway? Horrendous idea.

Dude, stop being so paranoid, its not "1984" or "V-Vendetta"

A posible UK ID card would include what UK decides, and honest, if its like every other average ID, it will include name, age, birthplace, current adress, and a chip with your digital certificate that allows you to complete online tedious administrative tasks like paying tributes, processing official requests with your local administrations, etc... Hell I have forgoten when was the last time I had to visit my local town hall branch for anything related with taxes, licenses, etc...

 

[ford prefect]

Just like a drivers lisence, given to everyone, with or without chip(for info purposes) and you've got valid ID to any occasion.

Shouldn't be anything against it really

Personally I have quite a few issues with a national ID card.

With a chip it could be used to hold all manner of information which would be an invasion of privacy; without, well you still have the issue of authorities having the right to demand to see it.

Then you have the estimated £1bn per year it would cost to run a national ID card system. Frankly I would rather see that money spent on better health care and education.

The main thing that bothers me is the fact that the idea was proposed in the UK as a way to "Beat Terrorism". The police in the UK already have too much power (It is an important part of my job to know precisely how much), and they choose to exercise only a small percentage of those powers. Giving them more power in the form of compulsory ID, is both unnecessary and dangerous. Don't get me wrong, the police do a good job for the most part and work under potentially dangerous conditions, but their is also, quite often, a lot of ego involved.

 

[Corran]

Personally I have quite a few issues with a national ID card.

With a chip it could be used to hold all manner of information which would be an invasion of privacy; without, well you still have the issue of authorities having the right to demand to see it.

Then you have the estimated £1bn per year it would cost to run a national ID card system. Frankly I would rather see that money spent on better health care and education.

The main thing that bothers me is the fact that the idea was proposed in the UK as a way to "Beat Terrorism". The police in the UK already have too much power (It is an important part of my job to know precisely how much), and they choose to exercise only a small percentage of those powers. Giving them more power in the form of compulsory ID, is both unnecessary and dangerous. Don't get me wrong, the police do a good job for the most part and work under potentially dangerous conditions, but their is also, quite often, a lot of ego involved.

The police however got to jump through more hoops to get things then some other parts of the government.

For instance, if the police want bank details then they need to get a court order.
When I work for the council fraud teams, if I want to get bank statements all I got to do is put a request to an authorising officer, they will agree to it (never had one come but not agreed, even when I noticed I made errors in teh request such as forgetting to change a name etc) and then the letter gets faxed to the bank who are under a legal obligation to provide them.

What does it take for me to be able to make this request? At most 10 days or so of training courses that are worthless, at the minimum 0 training and just ask one the other authorised officers to sign it off and pass up to the necessary person.

Generally this means I can get access to their bank statements/applications etc for the past 7 years if I deemed it necessary. And though this is very beneficial, it can easily be abused and I have seen it done so.

It the "abuse" factor involved that worries me. Because the ID schemes the UK propose hold too much data imo that someone can and will abuse in one way or another. No if's or but's, if you worked within organisations that can access them then you know it will happen.

 

[Turamber]

Dude, stop being so paranoid, its not "1984" or "V-Vendetta"

You don't think Franco would have used electronic ID cards in a similar way then?

 

[Vasconcelos]

You don't think Franco would have used electronic ID cards in a similar way then?

I dont rly know what a dictator who died 33 years go has to do with IDs... in fact there were already ID cards (tho non electronic) in his years.

Hopefully, we live in 2010

 

[mooSe_]

I don't live in 2010

 

[Lakih]

I don't live in 2010

It's ok mooSe_ you will soon....

 

[Ch3tan]

I dont rly know what a dictator who died 33 years go has to do with IDs... in fact there were already ID cards (tho non electronic) in his years.

Hopefully, we live in 2010

What is the benefit of a national (enforced) Id card, and does it justify the cost? These are the important questions. In the UK there is no benefit to having and ID card, we have passports and driving licenses already if people want to carry ID. The cost is ridiculous as well, not just to the public for having to buy a card, but the cost of launching and maintaining a scheme that is unneeded through our taxes every year.

 

[old.Tohtori]

What is the benefit of a national (enforced) Id card, and does it justify the cost? These are the important questions. In the UK there is no benefit to having and ID card, we have passports and driving licenses already if people want to carry ID. The cost is ridiculous as well, not just to the public for having to buy a card, but the cost of launching and maintaining a scheme that is unneeded through our taxes every year.

If no pass or drivers L, valid ID. costs over 10 years, no problem.

There's no maintaining costs either, just stick it on passport systems.

Every other country has drivers licenses and passports too, it's irrelevant.

Would eliminate your "silly passport needs for cigs" for one.

 

[Ch3tan]

If no pass or drivers L, valid ID. costs over 10 years, no problem.

There's no maintaining costs either, just stick it on passport systems.

Every other country has drivers licenses and passports too, it's irrelevant.

Would eliminate your "silly passport needs for cigs" for one.

That is no reason for a mandatory Id scheme that costs billions. As for your arguments about costs.... LOL, you obivously have not read into the scheme proposed here. It is not part of the passport service.

It wouldn't eliminate the need by the way either, the people that do not carry Id at the moment because they believe they look old enough will still not.

 

[Lethul]

I still find it hard to believe that UK don't have ID. Feels more and more like a African tribe than a big European nation

 

[Ch3tan]

I still find it hard to believe that UK don't have ID. Feels more and more like a African tribe than a big European nation

We do have ID, it's called a passport, we also have a driving license.

Why do you have to have a mandatory national ID to be a big nation?

 

[old.Tohtori]

That is no reason for a mandatory Id scheme that costs billions. As for your arguments about costs.... LOL, you obivously have not read into the scheme proposed here. It is not part of the passport service.

It wouldn't eliminate the need by the way either, the people that do not carry Id at the moment because they believe they look old enough will still not.

Err, so you don't carry around a credit card? Because the ID card would be as awfully hard to carry.

The costs aren't that great, your government is trying to bring in some fancy tracking, dna holding card, that's not the same ID card. The ID card in EU is given and handled by the same people that handle passports, no extra costs unless you count "printing" as a huge cost. It's around 40€ here and is valid for 10 years, it's not like it's a huge running cost for the people OR the government.

ID card is simply the way modern nations work and by direct comparison to this thread, would eliminate some annoyance issues.

Legal ID card for those that don't have a drivers license and don't want to carry a massive passport around.

Passport, drivers license, ID card. Three different things.

Why do you have to have a mandatory national ID to be a big nation?

To become a modern big nation, not a big third world nation

But let me ask you; aside the costs, what's the harm?

 

[Ch3tan]

I'm not arguing against a voluntary national ID card as an alternative to a driving licence Toht. The scheme we are getting in the UK is NOT what you have in Europe.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm not arguing against a voluntary national ID card as an alternative to a driving licence Toht. The scheme we are getting in the UK is NOT what you have in Europe.

Well it's really hard to figure you out Ch3t, 'cause you seem to be against a normal, chipped, non chipped, voluntary OR non-voluntary ID card.

What harm would a mandatory, no chip card be? (even if the chip only had some details of you)

 

[mooSe_]

An extra card that I have to carry around in my (already over-stuffed) wallet. It also serves no real purpose as I already carry my driver's license around for ID. Also it costs me around £40.

Wow that sounds awesome, sign me up!

 

[old.Tohtori]

An extra card that I have to carry around in my (already over-stuffed) wallet. It also serves no real purpose as I already carry my driver's license around for ID. Also it costs me around £40.

Wow that sounds awesome, sign me up!

Well that would eliminate the mandatory ID card, as a drivers license works as such.

Now without that?

 

[Ch3tan]

Well that would eliminate the mandatory ID card, as a drivers license works as such.

Now without that?

Toht, for the love of god, we are not arguing against a voluntary national Id card. We are arguing against what has been proposed and is going ahead here in the UK. If you cannot understand that simple point, then maybe you should stop debating this?