Rant First Eruopean/Islamic woman with a headscarf in parliament

[old.Tohtori]

That's so amazingly misguided I don't even know where to start.

So if someone was brought up in a culture that believed in ritual baby sacrifice, it wouldn't be OK to criticise that culture? Sure, having a go at people who are born in to this culture and know no better would be out of line but practices, beliefs and ideologies should never go unquestioned/criticised.

Who's saying it's wrong?

Our culture?

Listen...

*cups ear*

I can hear the books burning already.

If I say all black people are idiots because they are black, that is racist.
If i say Islam is a stupid religion, that is nothing like racism and you cannot call it racism.

If you say black people are stupid it's as bad as calling all islamic people stupid.

Simple enough.

 

[nath]

Who's saying it's wrong?

Our culture?

Listen...

*cups ear*

I can hear the books burning already.

Then who is to say racism is wrong? If you think it's potentially OK for a culture to sacrifice babies, maybe my culture is being critical of others. Who are you to say it's wrong?

Cultural relativism is bullshit.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Then who is to say racism is wrong? If you think it's potentially OK for a culture to sacrifice babies, maybe my culture is being critical of others. Who are you to say it's wrong?

Cultural relativism is bullshit.

So you think racism is ok?

Because i wasn't saying that, i said that it's as bad to hate some group for being that group. No matter what that group is.

 

[tris-]

If you say black people are stupid it's as bad as calling all islamic people stupid.

Simple enough.

So its not racism then?
Being black is not a choice.
A belief is exactly that, so you should question it. Should we let everyone who believes in communism just get on with running the world?

NO THANKS.

Its like saying people who like milk are stupid, and then saying that is as bad as being racist.

 

[Chronictank]

Like trying to use their own Shia laws instead of the laws of the land in their communities here in the UK? i dont know enough about but i dont think anyone should be using any Laws except the law of the land they are staying in

*sigh*, sharia law is not used in this country in any community as far as i am aware,
The whole fuss about the Bishop's comments were about integrating some parts of the law which were deemed better into the legal system

The other case if i remember correctly were to use sharia law to settle private disputes between 2 parties who agree to use that system (a private dispute is things like your fence being 2 cm into your neighbours garden)

 

[Sparx]

*sigh*, sharia law is not used in this country in any community as far as i am aware,
The whole fuss about the Bishop's comments were about integrating some parts of the law which were deemed better into the legal system

The other case if i remember correctly were to use sharia law to settle private disputes between 2 parties who agree to use that system (a private dispute is things like your fence being 2 cm into your neighbours garden)

Why do you have to be a prick with the sigh? i did say i didnt know much about it quite clearly, you could have just explained it without having to be a knob about it

 

[nath]

So you think racism is ok?

Because i wasn't saying that, i said that it's as bad to hate some group for being that group. No matter what that group is.

No, you said YES in response to this question:


Also, Toh, are you really saying bad mouthing RELIGION (not religious people specifically, but RELIGION) is the same as racism?

That's entirely different. I don't think racism is OK - criticising a religion is not racism. Religion should not be exempt from attack, it's followers should be free to follow whatever beliefs and practices they like as long as they don't harm others but their beliefs and practices should not be protected from criticism. As I made it painfully clear in my original question - NOT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY but the religion itself.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So its not racism then?
Being black is not a choice.
A belief is exactly that, so you should question it. Should we let everyone who believes in communism just get on with running the world?

NO THANKS.

Its like saying people who like milk are stupid, and then saying that is as bad as being racist.

Being islam is often not a choice either.

You're confusing your own culture to the islam culture.

If you think people are stupid because they drink milk, yes, it's as discriminating and bad as racism.

If you judge any WHOLE group for a common nominator, you're as bad.

Like i said, stop trying to make yourself feel better about your own discrimination.

No, you said YES in response to this question:


Also, Toh, are you really saying bad mouthing RELIGION (not religious people specifically, but RELIGION) is the same as racism?

That's entirely different. I don't think racism is OK - criticising a religion is not racism. Religion should not be exempt from attack, it's followers should be free to follow whatever beliefs and practices they like as long as they don't harm others but their beliefs and practices should not be protected from criticism. As I made it painfully clear in my original question - NOT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE SPECIFICALLY but the religion itself.

Fair enough, but i never said that so it's a moot point.

We've been talking about hating people, not ideas.

 

[Ch3tan]

OK, so I used a poor choice of words, and I can see why you think I'd hate all muslims. I apologize for that.
But what I do mean is that SOME muslims request that Belgian law be adapted to fit their religion (citing freedom of religion for this) , but at the very same time, they ask for age-old local traditions to be abolished, because they don't like them (Last year, they even demanded that all Christmas decorations be removed from the courthouse in Brussels, because it hurts their sensibilities).
Note that I Really stress on the SOME part of this. Sadly, this minority is also the most vocal one.

No No No, do not apologise for doing nothing wrong.

toht is being very over-sensitive here. You did not come across as if you hated anyone.

Toht bashing a religion is NOT hating those that practise it.

I think religions are misguided and cause problems, this does not mean I discriminate against those who practise them.

If you cannot see the clear defining line between discriminating against a person and a religious organisation then you are just buying into modern day political correctness rubbish.

We do not HAVE to respect everyone else's views and opinions, and we are free to question them. Where the line is crossed is when hatred and discrimination is used to show your feelings / thoughts.

 

[Lamp]

Re the "sigh post" I think Chronic's comments are spot on

 

[Sparx]

Re the "sigh post" I think Chronic's comments are spot on

Cause one of my biggest problems is people talking down to me, if i dont know something then tell me, dont be a cvnt and have to fill your comments with things like *sighs* and yes if someone spoke to me like that IRL i would have said the same thing which i do

 

[Ch3tan]

Why do you have to be a prick with the sigh? i did say i didnt know much about it quite clearly, you could have just explained it without having to be a knob about it

Sparx, chill out and join in, or sit it out until you can. The discussion is fine without personal attacks.

I think the *sigh* was because you gave a viewpoint on a subject without actually knowing all about it -something you admitted in your post. It's the same thing the sensationalist press in this country love to do and encourage.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Toht bashing a religion is NOT hating those that practise it.

I think religions are misguided and cause problems, this does not mean I discriminate against those who practise them.

But you do.

If someone says they are muslim, you instantly form an opinion of that person.

You're not hating JUST the religion.

We've not been talking about hating religion here either, we've been talking about hating a group of people with a common nominator being as bad as racism.

 

[tris-]

Being islam is often not a choice either.

You're confusing your own culture to the islam culture.

If you think people are stupid because they drink milk, yes, it's as discriminating and bad as racism.



.

Then I think you are really belitteling how bad racism is, and people subject to it (such as my self) would find what youre saying there very stupid indeed.
im not confusing anything and dont tell me that I am.
questioning ideas and being critical of them is never as bad as racism, no matter how much bullshit you try and spin here.

 

[Sparx]

Re the "sigh post" I think Chronic's comments are spot on

And i did clearly say i dont know enough about it so an explanation would have been enough

 

[nath]

Fair enough, but i never said that so it's a moot point.

We've been talking about hating people, not ideas.

Nice backpedal but I very specifically and clearly worded my question to you and you responded yes. If you take that back, fair enough.

You've been talking about hating people. I've been talking about hating ideas, beliefs, practices, ideologies. I can't speak to what other people were talking about but I believe tris is more or less on the same page as me. He can clarify though.

 

[Chronictank]

Why do you have to be a prick with the sigh? i did say i didnt know much about it quite clearly, you could have just explained it without having to be a knob about it

I wasn't being a knob at all... it's tiring watching you spout all this drivel without even trying to find out the facts behind it
surely after the first couple you would at least try and google it ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Nice backpedal but I very specifically and clearly worded my question to you and you responded yes. If you take that back, fair enough.

You've been talking about hating people. I've been talking about hating ideas, beliefs, practices, ideologies. I can't speak to what other people were talking about but I believe tris is more or less on the same page as me. He can clarify though.

I didn't read your question completely, that's the "fair enough" part.

You asking me something like "do you think hating an idea is wrong?" in a discussion where i've CLEARLY stated it's about hating the people, is a "trap" question at best and as such, moot.

 

[Ch3tan]

toht, please do not tell me what I am or am not confused about, I have been following the discussion. You have intertwined hate, race and religion into one. You have basically called anyone criticising a religion as hating it -they are not the same things, and you are attempting to put words into mouths to justify your viewpoint.

 

[tris-]

Nice backpedal but I very specifically and clearly worded my question to you and you responded yes. If you take that back, fair enough.

You've been talking about hating people. I've been talking about hating ideas, beliefs, practices, ideologies. I can't speak to what other people were talking about but I believe tris is more or less on the same page as me. He can clarify though.

I am talking about being critical of ideas, which is a good thing always, and never as bad as racism.

If you say critising ideas is as bad as racism, youre really making racism seem that its not bad at all, because critising ideas is half of what thinking for your self is all about.

You are knocking down the 'importance' of racism to say its as bad as being critical of ideas imo, and you have perhaps not been subject to racism your self if you think they are the same thing.

 

[nath]

You asking me something like "do you think hating an idea is wrong?" in a discussion where i've CLEARLY stated it's about hating the people, is a "trap" question at best and as such, moot.

See this is why it's pointless arguing with you. If it were a trap, I would have constructed the question in an ambiguous/vague manner - I didn't, it was absolutely crystal clear. You admit yourself that you didn't read the question properly and it's somehow my fault? I call bullshit, sir.

 

[old.Tohtori]

toht, please do not tell me what I am or am not confused about, I have been following the discussion. You have intertwined hate, race and religion into one. You have basically called anyone criticising a religion as hating it -they are not the same things, and you are attempting to put words into mouths to justify your viewpoint.

No i haven't.

I've clearly stated it's about hating people.

Every time, except the trap questioning of nath.

See this is why it's pointless arguing with you. If it were a trap, I would have been vague in my presentation of it - it wasn't, it was absolutely crystal clear. You admit yourself that you didn't read the question properly and it's somehow my fault? I call bullshit, sir.

If i had read it completely, i would've said it's not the discussion.

As i stated when it became clear.

IT's as pointless as asking "do you like cheese?" in a discussion about cars, and as such, yes, it is your fault.

I corrected the viewpoint and said i didn't read the question subtext.

 

[Ch3tan]

But you do.

If someone says they are muslim, you instantly form an opinion of that person.

You're not hating JUST the religion.

We've not been talking about hating religion here either, we've been talking about hating a group of people with a common nominator being as bad as racism.

Do I?

So infact what you are doing is judging what I do based on your belief of what an a-typical anti-religious zealot /racist would think?

Well then you sir are discriminating against me. I call you a racist, using your own definition.

 

[tris-]

Well everyone else is talking about critising RELIGION, so maybe you need to start another discussion because youre talking about completley different things to everyone else.

 

[nath]

The OP clarified what he meant and apologised (completely unnecessarily) for his wording. He clarified his point was not with people, but with practices. Given that, it seems tris is right, you're the one talking about cheese, Toht.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Do I?

So infact what you are doing is judging what I do based on your belief of what an a-typical anti-religious zealot /racist would think?

Well then you sir are discriminating against me. I call you a racist, using your own definition.

If it was true, i might be a racist by my own definition, but you know you're only saying you don't because of the discussion.

You would judge someone by being religious, instantly. I could even go digging for a quote on that, but i don't think i'll bother.

Well everyone else is talking about critising RELIGION, so maybe you need to start another discussion because youre talking about completley different things to everyone else.

You're not though;

thats like saying you dont like people with blonde hair is the same as being a racist!

It's about hating people with a common feature.

Always has been.

Maybe YOU need to check yourself.

The OP clarified what he meant and apologised (completely unnecessarily) for his wording. He clarified his point was not with people, but with practices. Given that, it seems tris is right, you're the one talking about cheese, Toht.

No, the discussion began before the clarification.

If tris- has changed his discussion point to religion, fair enough, let's talk about that, but it began(as anyone can check) with hating people with a common feature.

 

[Ch3tan]

I'm going to the gym now, please can we not have ten pages + for me to catch up to on my return..... pretty please?

 

[nath]

If it was true, i might be a racist by my own definition, but you know you're only saying you don't because of the discussion.

You would judge someone by being religious, instantly. I could even go digging for a quote on that, but i don't think i'll bother.

Thus endeth the discussion.


You may not admit it here Toht, but you kill babies in your spare time, and as such your views are not valid here. I could go and search for proof but I won't bother.

I'm going to the gym now, please can we not have ten pages + for me to catch up to on my return..... pretty please?

I hate people who go to the gym, I'm a racist :\.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm going to the gym now, please can we not have ten pages + for me to catch up to on my return..... pretty please?

Easy, after the people calling backpedalling realise they're the ones doing it

Thus endeth the discussion.


You may not admit it here Toht, but you kill babies in your spare time, and as such your views are not valid here. I could go and search for proof but I won't bother.

Let Ch3tan answer for himself, you can't end a discussion between other people.

F*ckity. Offity.

 

[tris-]

No, no I dont.
Nice way to pick one point out of several other good points I have made.
Still a shame though, because everyone here is talking about thing and youre talking about something else, and since im not the only one thinkings that maybe you need to check your self.
This is always the case though isnt it?
You think the discussion is about one thing, infact everyone is discussing something else. Not untill the end do you pull out "oh well, based on this you were clearly talking about that" rather than take the whole thing in to context.

the fact is you have belittled racism massively by comparing it to being critical to ideas, and for one I find that pretty offensive after being subject to it for years. You clearly have no idea of the impact of racism on someone if you think that is the same as someone saying "hey, i think your idea is shit".