Rant First Eruopean/Islamic woman with a headscarf in parliament

[old.Tohtori]

thats like saying you dont like people with blonde hair is the same as being a racist!

Yup.

Same thing really.

Skincolor, race, religion, eye color.

 

[Sparx]

The one i love saying is people are racist against me cause im scottish, i know its not racism i only say it to see who picks up on it, much the same way you say "that'll learn you" just to wind people up

 

[tris-]

Yup.

Same thing really.

Skincolor, race, religion, eye color.

So its not racist then, its discrimination. What you said previously is that IT IS racism.

 

[Lamp]

The jews are not a "breed"

You can be Jewish merely by virtue of your mother being jewish and live the life of an absolute non-believer. There are black jews in Ethopia, quite different from your stereotypical eastern-European Jewry. You can get Chinese Moslems. Its not as simple as you think, Tris.

 

[tris-]

"The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation.[4][5][6] Converts to Judaism have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia."

What i said then

?

"an ethnoreligious group"
"The term ethnoreligious (or ethno-religious) refers to an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background."


Pretty much exactly what I said, except I said breed instead of ethnicity.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So its not racist then, its discrimination. What you said previously is that IT IS racism.

Same difference is what i said.

If you think it's "worse" to be a racist then hating people because they are blonde, you're a moron.

It's hatred all the same.

 

[tris-]

Same difference is what i said.

If you think it's "worse" to be a racist then hating people because they are blonde, you're a moron.

It's hatred all the same.

"encroaching Islamisation of Europe is seriously starting to irritate me...Muslims are generally showing a blatant disrespect for the traditions of the European countries they reside in.
Even worse, when asked to adapt, they whine that they are being discriminated... "

are discriminating and generalising. Aka, racist.
"

When OP was talking about religion

?

 

[Lamp]

Nick Griffin, leader of the BNP, is on record as a Hollocaust denier, and one of his manifesto policies is to offer voluntary repatriation of all British ethnics to their country of origin, and has banned any non-whites from joining his party. Is he then only part-racist ? The bit in relation to skin colour only ?

The hatred - whether based on ethinicity / skin colour / race or religion amounts to the same thing - ie that most people find such descrimination to be distasteful and anathema to modern society.

 

[Raven]

I'm Flemish
My wife is Syrian
The priest who married us is Greek.
Amonst my friends there are blacks, Arabs, and a few Indians.
No I'm not racist.

No jews though????

OMG RACIALIST!11!!

 

[nath]

The jews are not a "breed"

You can be Jewish merely by virtue of your mother being jewish and live the life of an absolute non-believer. There are black jews in Ethopia, quite different from your stereotypical eastern-European Jewry. You can get Chinese Moslems. Its not as simple as you think, Tris.

Wikipedia, the arbiter of all knowledge and truthiness to the rescue!

Jew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethnoreligious - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can be an ethnic Jew or just some gentile that decided they want to be allowed to tell Jewish jokes and so converted.

 

[tris-]

Well now youre changing the subject.
Im not even sure what it is youre asking now

Wikipedia, the arbiter of all knowledge and truthiness to the rescue!

Jew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethnoreligious - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can be an ethnic Jew or just some gentile that decided they want to be allowed to tell Jewish jokes and so converted.

OLD

I already said that like 4 posts ago

 

[noblok]

As far as I understand the dresscode is "no religious symbols', which is moronic. She got elected by people for whom their religion is of importance. Her attaching importance to religious symbolism means that's she's doing what she's supposed to do - representing those people - well.

It's stupid to pretend that in the public sphere we shouldn't be attached to particularities such as religion (or race/gender/etc). These things matter to us, precisely because they are particular to us. And because they matter to us, they should play a certain role in the public sphere. Pretending that the group of citizens is a homogeneous mass is illusionary and counter-productive. It will most likely result in people feeling alienated from the political sphere, because it has an aura of indifference/pretended neutrality (something which can already be seen now). People will no longer be passionate about politics, because every reason to be passionate is filtered out for the sake of neutrality.

The neutrality thus gained is an illusionary neutrality, because it promotes the image of the detached person who has no particular connections, who is an empty slate. This empty slate will then in the public sphere decide what's the best rational option. The problem with this is that this is not how humans work. Humans are encumbered with particular bonds and attachments, which should be accounted for in political debate. Even the people who pretend to be neutral aren't, because they exclude anyone who doesn't conform to their image from politics.

 

[nath]

Well now youre changing the subject.
Im not even sure what it is youre asking now


OLD

I already said that like 4 posts ago

Your post was all messy, I took time on mine to present it in a manner to which you all should have become accustomed. Slow 'n steady wins the race.

Plus, I'm half-jewish, sort of. I've family who survived Auschwitz and I eat matzos and bagels, ergo my post has far more validity than yours. Clearly.

 

[tris-]

Slow 'n steady wins the race.

I was thinking about this yesterday while I was cycling. I concluded that is a bullshit excuse for coming last, and is only true if everyone else is going much slower than you are.
In this I was first

I eat bagels.

So do I when my Mam buys them.

 

[old.Tohtori]

"encroaching Islamisation of Europe is seriously starting to irritate me...Muslims are generally showing a blatant disrespect for the traditions of the European countries they reside in.
Even worse, when asked to adapt, they whine that they are being discriminated... "

are discriminating and generalising. Aka, racist.
"

When OP was talking about religion

?

As i said, same difference.

If you really want to grasp into that tiny detail instead of what is being said, good for you.

Fact is; if you are hating ANY group of people due to an aspect they hold the same, you are no better then, say, nazis killing people.

Disclaimer; godwin was envoked earlier.

 

[tris-]

As i said, same difference.

If you really want to grasp into that tiny detail instead of what is being said, good for you.

I do, because as I said it pisses me off when people say Religion = Race and that bad mouthing a religion is being a racist.

 

[Vintersorg]

Same difference is what i said.

If you think it's "worse" to be a racist then hating people because they are blonde, you're a moron.

It's hatred all the same.

Where did I say I hate them?
I didn't mean to imply that...I've got no problems with Muslims in general, but with Muslims that use their religion to bend the laws...

 

[nath]

As i said, same difference.

If you really want to grasp into that tiny detail instead of what is being said, good for you.

Fact is; if you are hating ANY group of people due to an aspect they hold the same, you are no better then, say, nazis killing people.

Disclaimer; godwin was envoked earlier.

I'm not sure it *is* the same difference. There are similarities, sure, but while any one person from a particular race can be a polar opposite to another in all but genetics, if someone is a member of a religion that actively says something about them. That doesn't make it OK to discriminate them based on that choice (or upbringing) but it means it's not entirely the same thing as racism.

edit: And tris - I'm not sure that he's saying bashing religion is the same as racism, but if he is then I absolutely 100% disagree with that because that would be very very silly indeed.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I do, because as I said it pisses me off when people say Religion = Race and that bad mouthing a religion is being a racist.

I don't really care if it pisses you off, it's still the same.

Hatred is hatred is hatred.

Where did I say I hate them?
I didn't mean to imply that...I've got no problems with Muslims in general, but with Muslims that use their religion to bend the laws...

Actually;

Muslims are generally showing a blatant disrespect for the traditions of the European countries they reside in.

You did say you do have a general problem.

I'm not sure it *is* the same difference. There are similarities, sure, but while any one person from a particular race can be a polar opposite to another in all but genetics, if someone is a member of a religion that actively says something about them. That doesn't make it OK to discriminate them based on that choice (or upbringing) but it means it's not entirely the same thing as racism.

Fair enough, a level of personal opinion is to be taken into consideration. To me, hatred is simple and it is the same difference, others might not agree.

 

[nath]

Notice he said "I didn't mean to imply that". So that should mean the end of that.

Also, Toh, are you really saying bad mouthing RELIGION (not religious people specifically, but RELIGION) is the same as racism?

 

[tris-]

I don't really care if it pisses you off, it's still the same.

.

Well no it isnt, racism is racism and bashing a religion is bashing a religion.
a muslim could be white british, chinese, or african. If you bash islam youre not being racist are you?

 

[Vintersorg]

I don't really care if it pisses you off, it's still the same.

Hatred is hatred is hatred.

Actually;

You did say you do have a general problem.

OK, so I used a poor choice of words, and I can see why you think I'd hate all muslims. I apologize for that.
But what I do mean is that SOME muslims request that Belgian law be adapted to fit their religion (citing freedom of religion for this) , but at the very same time, they ask for age-old local traditions to be abolished, because they don't like them (Last year, they even demanded that all Christmas decorations be removed from the courthouse in Brussels, because it hurts their sensibilities).
Note that I Really stress on the SOME part of this. Sadly, this minority is also the most vocal one.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Notice he said "I didn't mean to imply that". So that should mean the end of that.

Also, Toh, are you really saying bad mouthing RELIGION (not religious people specifically, but RELIGION) is the same as racism?

Fair enough, it wasn't meant.

To your question; Yes.

Well no it isnt, racism is racism and bashing a religion is bashing a religion.
a muslim could be white british, chinese, or african. If you bash islam youre not being racist are you?

Islam isn't a real choice to the majority of people living in strict muslim areas. So it's no different then being born jew.

Vintersorg; no problem and no need to apologise, fair enough mistake in words.

 

[noblok]

Where did I say I hate them?
I didn't mean to imply that...I've got no problems with Muslims in general, but with Muslims that use their religion to bend the laws...

But it's a stupid law which should be changed anyway.

 

[tris-]

So bashing islam is not being racist then.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So bashing islam is not being racist then.

Technically? Maybe not, but it's the same thing.

Might as well call it racism.

To answer the REAL question you're huntig here; Yes, you are as bad as a racist because you hate religious people.

 

[Sparx]

Where did I say I hate them?
I didn't mean to imply that...I've got no problems with Muslims in general, but with Muslims that use their religion to bend the laws...

Like trying to use their own Shia laws instead of the laws of the land in their communities here in the UK? i dont know enough about but i dont think anyone should be using any Laws except the law of the land they are staying in

 

[Lamp]

Going back to the original post - I don't agree that all religious symbols should be removed from parliament.

The law in Belgium - whether or not I agree with it (I don't) is here to stay, so therefore the question is: is this scarf worn to deliberately flout the regulations or is it part of her freedom of expression dress code? A religious Sikh would not remove his Turban. Everyone knows this. Sikh policemen in the UK wear turban-type police hats. So is this Belgian law or rule (whatever it is) itself effectively banning Sikhs from standing in parliament because they know that a Sikh can't remove his turban ?

 

[nath]

To your question; Yes.



Islam isn't a real choice to the majority of people living in strict muslim areas. So it's no different then being born jew.

Vintersorg; no problem and no need to apologise, fair enough mistake in words.

That's so amazingly misguided I don't even know where to start.

So if someone was brought up in a culture that believed in ritual baby sacrifice, it wouldn't be OK to criticise that culture? Sure, having a go at people who are born in to this culture and know no better would be out of line but practices, beliefs and ideologies should never go unquestioned/criticised.

 

[tris-]

Technically? Maybe not, but it's the same thing.

.

If I say all black people are idiots because they are black, that is racist.
If i say Islam is a stupid religion, that is nothing like racism and you cannot call it racism.