Question Elton John become a parent

[Cerb]

This is actually something I've talked about a lot about with various people over the years and always something I have trouble with. I like to think of my self as a good person. I'm not going to say something as ignorant as "I have no problem with gay people" , because that implies there is something to have a problem with and I don't believe there is. Gay people are there and straight people are there, and that's good.

However I have always wrestled with whether or not same sex couples should raise children. I want to say yes go ahead any couple who are willing to look after and love a child deserve one. In fact I do believe this. However where my mind rebels is for the child. Now I know the idea that a childs parents being gay might somehow pass this on to a kid is absolutely ludicrous. My problem is that regardless of this I can't really ever see that child having a "normal" upbringing. Then I think to myself, who am I to decide what a normal upbringing is? My worry is that a child raised by a same sex couple is going to have to grow up facing some of the same stigmas and criticisms that are leveled at his/her parents and I don't think its fair for any child to have to deal with that. It's not right, but the fact is that child is going to be teased in the school yard when two daddies or mommies turn up to bring them home. Other children's parents who are intolerant may encourage their child to "stay away" from the child as if homosexuality was some sort of contagious disease. I wish the world wasn't this way, but we would all be kidding ourselves if we said people don't behave like this. It seems to me that even though any loving same sex couple deserve a child just as much as any other couple, for the child's sake, it would be better if they didn't. Even writing that gives me a taste of bile in my mouth because I know it is a bad solution but there you go. Like I said it's something I wrestle with.

/essay off

 

[cHodAX]

It's not a perfect situation but it'd be better than a single parent.

BOLLOCKS, there are fucking loads of good single parents out there who do an amazing job. In no way is having a stroppy miserable 63 year old preferable to to having a 25 year old single mum raising her own child.

I very nearly gave out a neg rep then, it is the most stupid thing you have ever said you silly Chelsea rentboy.

 

[Thorwyn]

In no way is having a stroppy miserable 63 year old preferable to to having a 25 year old single mum raising her own child.

That´s your assumption.
Of course there are many single parents (male and female) who are doing a great job. But the process of a divorce, especially when both parents start hating each other, can be quite traumatizing for a kid. And there are more than enough examples where those kids are being treated like shit by their mother/father, so I think your "25yo mom > 63yo man" statement is just a generalization. All this mother figure and father figure crap is just nonsense. Children that are living in children´s homes are being raised without any of the traditional "figures" and that doesn´t seem to affect their psyches too much.

I think that homosexual people should have the same rights and privileges as heterosexual people. That includes marriage, tax-status and, consequently, the right to adopt children as well. Personally, I don`t consider it an ideal situation, but then, there´s so much going wrong in "normal" families these days...

@tierk:
Your opinion is quite popular. I respect your POV, but just allow me a couple of questions:
Do you think gay marriage (with all the consequences) is ok?
Do you think it´s ok for gay people to become teachers in primary schools?
Is there anything that you think gay/lesbian people should not be allowed to do?

 

[cHodAX]

That´s your assumption.
Of course there are many single parents (male and female) who are doing a great job. But the process of a divorce, especially when both parents start hating each other, can be quite traumatizing for a kid. And there are more than enough examples where those kids are being treated like shit by their mother/father, so I think your "25yo mom > 63yo man" statement is just a generalization. All this mother figure and father figure crap is just nonsense. Children that are living in children´s homes are being raised without any of the traditional "figures" and that doesn´t seem to affect their psyches too much.

I think that homosexual people should have the same rights and privileges as heterosexual people. That includes marriage, tax-status and, consequently, the right to adopt children as well. Personally, I don`t consider it an ideal situation, but then, there´s so much going wrong in "normal" families these days...

@tierk:
Your opinion is quite popular. I respect your POV, but just allow me a couple of questions:
Do you think gay marriage (with all the consequences) is ok?
Do you think it´s ok for gay people to become teachers in primary schools?
Is there anything that you think gay/lesbian people should not be allowed to do?

No it is not an assumption, my opinion is based on what I know of Elton as well as my experiences of life. Elton has a fucking lousy temper as has been caught on film numerous times over the years. Oh and kids raised in kids homes don't have issues? Two close friends of mine one of whom is Slainyou were raised in kids homes from being toddlers and both have been badly scarred by the experience of not having mother and father figures as they would readily admit.

Don't go down the sexuality road, I haven't even raised that point and will not, the age is a massive issue and that child is going to be the victim of it along with a torrent of abuse from it's peers as it grows up. This was not about what was good for the child, it is all about what Elton is prepared to do to keep David happy. Utter selfishness, just like Madonna kidnapping kids from Africa and trying to pass herself off as mother Theresa, pure fucking hipocracy.

 

[Thorwyn]

This was not about what was good for the child, it is all about what Elton is prepared to do to keep David happy. Utter selfishness, just like Madonna kidnapping kids from Africa and trying to pass herself off as mother Theresa, pure fucking hipocracy.

Ok, here, I agree with you. Celebrities should not adopt children, because they´re unable to provide the children with a "normal" life.

But I think we dropped Elton from the question?!

 

[cHodAX]

Ok, here, I agree with you. Celebrities should not adopt children, because they´re unable to provide the children with a "normal" life.

But I think we dropped Elton from the question?!

So any 63 year old man with lousy a temper, diva tendencies and so much money that the child will have to raised by staff paying for surrogate children is ok? Famous or not, gay or not, it is still a fucked up scenario. If he wanted kids he has had 50 years with bollocks generating tadpoles to get the job done, yet he waits until 63 and then changes his mind? Nah he is doing it to keep the hubby happy and the what is best for the child doesn't come into the equation.

 

[Thorwyn]

So any 63 year old man with lousy a temper, diva tendencies and so much money that the child will have to raised by staff paying for surrogate children is ok? Famous or not, gay or not, it is still a fucked up scenario.

Why do you keep talking about Elton John or money, or fame? I thought we took all that out of the context of this question. All I said is that your statement "25yo female > 63yo male" is not always true.

If he wanted kids he has had 50 years with bollocks generating tadpoles to get the job done, yet he waits until 63 and then changes his mind? Nah he is doing it to keep the hubby happy and the what is best for the child doesn't come into the equation.

Maybe. Who knows.
Does that also mean that, in your opinion, people should not be allowed to reproduce as soon as they have passed a certain age? I mean... 63 is a lot, but hey, with a little effort, I think a 63yo man is still able to get the job done.

 

[Amphrax]

Kill the fucking gay *****
















nah just kidding

 

[liloe]

My worry is that a child raised by a same sex couple is going to have to grow up facing some of the same stigmas and criticisms that are leveled at his/her parents and I don't think its fair for any child to have to deal with that. It's not right, but the fact is that child is going to be teased in the school yard when two daddies or mommies turn up to bring them home. Other children's parents who are intolerant may encourage their child to "stay away" from the child as if homosexuality was some sort of contagious disease.

QFT

Now before I come to the next part of my post, let me first explain a few things. Of course I'm aware that there are plenty of parents who treat their children badly, beat them or do whatever with them, but what I write is a little bit adjusted to get more of a "standard".

Let's all be honest and think back to when we were 3-15 years old. I'm gonna write this in less careful words: The shit those children are gonna face won't make them happy at all.

Okay, now to get on I think most have heard of the oedipus complex and so from a psychological point of view, I wonder if children of same sex couples can develop like any other child. Same goes for single parents, to be honest, because I know a lot of people who were raised by single parents and had later on massive relationship issues. Yes yes, I can already hear the "not true for me" voices, but well, I'm happy for you then.

This whole "I want a children" thing is extremely egoistic anyway. Being born is the most random thing that can happen in your life and if your parents suck, then tough luck. I can only imagine how shit it is to have parents like "ohhhhh, this is our sweeeeeeeeeetheaaaaart" or some who beat you up each day. So back to the previous paragraph now.

You can't forbid people to have children and from a civil rights point of view that would be quite bad as well, but hey, if there is the possibility to do something, then at least decide what's best for the child and the perspective of being bullied at school or having relationship problems later on doesn't sound too positive to me.

To sum it up: I don't care who marries who or who fucks who, but I'm against exposing children to potential danger.

P.S.: In case I forgot something - which may accidentally happen - I will of course complete my argument later

 

[Thorwyn]

Okay, now to get on I think most have heard of the oedipus complex and so from a psychological point of view, I wonder if children of same sex couples can develop like any other child. Same goes for single parents, to be honest, because I know a lot of people who were raised by single parents and had later on massive relationship issues. Yes yes, I can already hear the "not true for me" voices, but well, I'm happy for you then.

That´s called pocket psychology. By your logic, all children that are raised by anything else than mother and father (i.e. children´s homes, single parents etc.) would have difficulties in their psychological developement. I think that´s a very fragile and questionable theory. Couldn´t it be the other way round? The oedipus complex is just the result of such a family setup, not a neccessary requirement?

 

[Ch3tan]

And I know lots of people who grew up with two parents and later on had massive relationship issues.... so what exactly is your point liloe?

 

[tierk]

Do you think gay marriage (with all the consequences) is ok? Do you think it´s ok for gay people to become teachers in primary schools? Is there anything that you think gay/lesbian people should not be allowed to do?

No and no. Your last question is already answered me thinks, well at least partially.

 

[Ch3tan]

Wow - is that an effect of living in a Islamic country, or is that a view you were raised with?

Because you realise what you are saying is; gay / lesbian people should not have the same rights as straight people, they should be second class citizens.

 

[Edmond]

Why is it not ok for gay/lesbians to become teachers?

How can you link the fact that they are gay to them not being fit to teach kids?

Are you saying that gay people are more likely to be peodos than straight people?

 

[Thorwyn]

Wow - is that an effect of living in a Islamic country, or is that a view you were raised with?

Because you realise what you are saying is; gay / lesbian people should not have the same rights as straight people, they should be second class citizens.

I don´t think this opinion has anything to do with living in a muslim country. There are lots of people who think that way... many of them are christians.

 

[Olgaline]

Some scary ass views in this thread!
what the hell does being gay have to do with being a teacher ?

 

[Cerb]

Nothing.

 

[cHodAX]

Why do you keep talking about Elton John or money, or fame? I thought we took all that out of the context of this question. All I said is that your statement "25yo female > 63yo male" is not always true.



Maybe. Who knows.
Does that also mean that, in your opinion, people should not be allowed to reproduce as soon as they have passed a certain age? I mean... 63 is a lot, but hey, with a little effort, I think a 63yo man is still able to get the job done.

No, you are purposely being obtuse. We have to compare Elton, that is who this thread is about. You can remove gay and even fame but the fact remains he is 63 and that raises some massive problems in itself. A young mother has a natural bond with a child, beyond what any father has just because she carried the child and is linked to in numerous ways even after the birth. Yes, she might be a shit mother but most aren't, trust me there are far more fucking useless fathers in the world than useless mothers. Back to age, odds are that young mum will be there for that child until he is almost a grandparent himself. I cannot overemphasise how important all those years of support are. Elton cannot even offer that child anything more than 20 years with any kind of certainty. For that reason alone it is selfish.

 

[liloe]

That´s called pocket psychology. By your logic, all children that are raised by anything else than mother and father (i.e. children´s homes, single parents etc.) would have difficulties in their psychological developement. I think that´s a very fragile and questionable theory. Couldn´t it be the other way round? The oedipus complex is just the result of such a family setup, not a neccessary requirement?

I admit that I'm not a psychology expert, but I think most here aren't, which makes this discussion hard anyway. We can't deny the fact that this discussion is more emotional than anything else, but what I was trying to say is, that I'd be interested in a psychological analysis of the whole problem. Multiple points of view of course. To be honest, there are a lot more questions, which - in my opinion - only an expert could answer and well, sadly I don't know any psychologist.

Not being one myself, I will hold back with more assumptions, though I just want to clarify that I didn't want to state a psychological fact, but merely point out that there might be more facets in this discussion. Thus I wrote: "I wonder".

And I know lots of people who grew up with two parents and later on had massive relationship issues.... so what exactly is your point liloe?

Now before I come to the next part of my post, let me first explain a few things. Of course I'm aware that there are plenty of parents who treat their children badly, beat them or do whatever with them, but what I write is a little bit adjusted to get more of a "standard".

I clearly said data adjustment, didn't I? And by relationship issues I don't mean "omg is this the right one" questions, but more serious things such as - for example - strange expectations, clearly resulting from the lack of a father figure.

 

[Ch3tan]

Clearly in whose eyes? Psychology is opinions more than science.

 

[liloe]

Clearly in whose eyes? Psychology is opinions more than science.

"Clearly" as in: Read my text, the words are there. I wasn't even talking about psychology at that point.

If your eyes can't see it, ask someone else to read it for you.

 

[Ch3tan]

So you aren't going to answer the question? Why is it clearly from the lack of a father figure? Our would you like to throw more aggression into the thread?

 

[liloe]

So you aren't going to answer the question? Why is it clearly from the lack of a father figure? Our would you like to throw more aggression into the thread?

I clearly didn't see that I used that word twice in two sentences …*shame on me, I beg you pardon. Obviously that's also a pretty poor display of text production

And no, I don't want to answer your question completely, because - and I hope you understand that - I simply don't want to expose other people's problems here, even if there is no connection at all.

All I can say is, that in this case it was not only my own, but also that person's own conclusion.

 

[Thorwyn]

No, you are purposely being obtuse. We have to compare Elton, that is who this thread is about. You can remove gay and even fame but the fact remains he is 63 and that raises some massive problems in itself. A young mother has a natural bond with a child, beyond what any father has just because she carried the child and is linked to in numerous ways even after the birth. Yes, she might be a shit mother but most aren't, trust me there are far more fucking useless fathers in the world than useless mothers. Back to age, odds are that young mum will be there for that child until he is almost a grandparent himself. I cannot overemphasise how important all those years of support are. Elton cannot even offer that child anything more than 20 years with any kind of certainty. For that reason alone it is selfish.

Obtuse? Well, maybe you´re right and I`m too stupid to understand the issue, so please help me out. So far, the key to your argument seems to be the age difference and the fact that you consider having a mother more important than having a father. Hence my question (which you didn´t answer):
Do you think that people beyond a certain age should no longer have children, neither naturally born nor adopted? And if so: where would you draw the line?

About selfishness....
Being selfish doesn´t automatically mean that the action itself is bad. To make a final judgement, you need to consider the entire situation. One could even say that the entire process of reproduction is purely selfish (and if you dig up some book on anthropology and social science, you´ll find some good evidence about that). Being selfish is natural and does not contain any ethical evaluation.

 

[liloe]

One could even say that the entire process of reproduction is purely selfish (and if you dig up some book on anthropology and social science, you´ll find some good evidence about that). Being selfish is natural and does not contain any ethical evaluation.

It's totally not the topic, but I agree with that opinion ^^ Then again it's highly philosophical, because basically you're deciding about something that can't even say no. If you were very cynical you could even say that suicide is the only way out if you disagree with your birth, so why are we happy about a birth, but sad about a suicide? Don't take me too serious here, though, it's a very cynical approach

 

[Jiggs]

Fact is human life is cheap and Elton John is rich.

 

[Thorwyn]

It's totally not the topic, but I agree with that opinion

Nono, it´s exactly on-topic, because people said that selfish automatically means that the action is bad. Hence my reply.

Then again it's highly philosophical, because basically you're deciding about something that can't even say no. If you were very cynical you could even say that suicide is the only way out if you disagree with your birth, so why are we happy about a birth, but sad about a suicide? Don't take me too serious here, though, it's a very cynical approach

Is it really that philosophical? I don´t know. Selfishness is just one motivational factor that does not just apply to reproduction. The question about the decision of "creating life" is a different matter. Here, I agree that the decision about your own life should be respected. But we´re drifting off...

 

[Madmaxx]

I didn't really know how elton john was as a person until I saw a radio interview with him and danny baker about football. He seemed really down to earth and like a nice person and obviously has a passion in his club. Unlike other celebritys e.g Ozzy Ozbourne and such I'd say no as they're just fucked up from drugs.

So for me I dont mind Gay people getting kids, nor do I mind Elton john getting a kid. But a non-celebrity 63 year old seems a bit OTT in age etc for me.

BBC - BBC Radio 5 live Programmes - The Danny Baker Show, 02/01/2010, Elton John on the Danny Baker Show

Thats the video of the interview I was talking about.

 

[xomer]

The serious and most important problem is the Age of the parent imo and not the sexouality.

 

[tierk]

OK first off ch3tan lets not try and turn this into a religious debate please as my comments have nothing to do with where I live and nor how I was brought up.

I am not the type of person that needs to have an opinion given to them and I would go as far as to say that discussions about gays /lesbians or sexuality period, were not and I hope never will be something that take up any time in my family life.

I think I need to clarify a couple of points before I go any further. Even when I lived in England - keep in mind I schooled very close to Brighton the gay capital of Europe (so I have been led to believe) - I had no issues with gays /lesbians, everyone is entitled to live their own lives as they choose.

However, I have always considered myself somewhat a prude in that I do not like to see couples – straight or gay - making out in public and feel that it should be kept behind closed doors.

Your sexuality is a private matter and not something that needs to be flaunted in public, be it straight, gay, lesbian, necrophilia whatever.

I do not say that gays /lesbians should not be allowed to teach at all but rather that they should not be allowed to teach at a primary level. I would certainly not want my child - when I finally get married and have them - to be taught or exposed to people living openly gay lives.

The child is too young to understand these things and I would never want /allow my young children to be exposed as such. Once the child is old enough to start understanding such things I have no issues with gay /lesbian teachers. We had a most excellent lesbian history teacher in our sixth form college, no problems nor issues.

Now I am sure that someone will ask ok at what age is it acceptable to allow him or her to teach children. Honestly, I do not think that you can fix an age realistically speaking as some children develop a lot faster than others. I myself did not discover the world of girls and sex until very late, in comparison to all of my mates in school.

As for gay marriages, seriously call it whatever you like but not marriage. Give them the same legal status I could not careless but to call it a marriage just demeans the whole concept of marriage for me.

It might be old fashioned, out dated and none fashionable concept but I always saw /see marriage as a commitment between two people to stay together, make a family together and most importantly a commitment before God (Allah, Jehovah, Krishna whatever).

I am sure that all the three religions frown on homosexuality and think that the idea of allowing gay marriages in churches etc as a joke. All religions are clear and no amount of revising or trying to soften this stance by modern day clerics is going to make this fact go away.

You can make as many laws as you like to give protection and rights to gays it will not change the fundamental fact that deep down inside the vast majority of people - maybe not in the UK but globally - feel it is wrong. It is why so many people hide it, keep it in the closet and do not discuss it.

You can try to punish people for not treating them equally, you can try to vilify people for being primitive, bigoted, and backward but it will not make a blind bit of difference.

It will always seem to be unnatural.

This does not mean that they should not be allowed a right to live freely or without rights, it is just an unpleasant fact and human nature that they must deal with.

Cho I think you have misunderstood my first post or not read it properly.

Just Read this article....

Elton John and David Furnish become parents - Telegraph

and it got me to wondering if gay couples adopting kids is considering as ok or not?

Just wondering what other peoples think about this and before we turn this into a flame fest lets try and keep it polite and non abusive please.

I hope that clears this up a bit.