[Dragongfang] "balanced, unbalanced, nerf, don't nerf" - discuss!

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by Sharma
If they do there is no way to justify the fact NSs get DDs and SBs get extra HP + 2H, age old arguement i know but infils have no particular special skill that sets them apart, im not talking about a weapon spec line im talking about an ABILITY.

Dragonfang is not an ability, it is a style in a speccable line.

2H has nothing to do with Shadowblades.. thats a midgard thing. every single class in mid that can wield a weapon other than a staff can use a 2h as well.

But i would gladly have my extra ~70hp unbuffed/~150 hp buffed advantage removed, and im sure Nightshades would gladly give there DD up if only Infils would loose there extra 453 spec points.

 

[gudrex]

So what?...we can have 2 handed weapons on mid and hibbies and albs can have dex based....ask any SB at all what they would choose if they got the option.

This is just a silly debate IMO...there is no way anyone can defend the infiltrators as they are now.
And i'm not talking about a nerf of dragonfang...i just think they if they should have it they should have to gimp some other skill.

 

[Melachi-]

Originally posted by Lomald Umilinn
Yes I do, 10 points for an instant stealth RA with lot of target bugs. Sb's at least have a Haste active RA worth looking into.

I hope to god your not talking about Shadowrun!

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by old.Emma
But i would gladly have my extra ~70hp unbuffed/~150 hp buffed advantage removed, and im sure Nightshades would gladly give there DD up if only Infils would loose there extra 453 spec points.

Emma I thought we already established you have nearer 150hp than my inf when both unbuffed?

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Emma I thought we already established you have nearer 150hp than my inf when both unbuffed?

Not established anything yet. As you have yet to post wether you have any hp oriantated RA`s like aug con/toughness

Emma has lvl 2 of both.

remove those ra`s and my "HP advantage" is alot less.

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by Melachi[Mid]
I hope to god your not talking about Shadowrun!

She`s either trying to justify Infiltrators serious dose of overpowered'ness by compairing Shadowrun to there RA`s or Mastery of Arms (which they get also) which also happens to still be bugged (has been since RA`s turned up in 1.51). ohh and its still bugged past lvl 1 in the US as well.

 

[old.Emma]

For those that say 2H weapons are fine. use them instead.

there not.

2H has a much greater chance of getting evaded than duel wield weapons.

Wanna know why ?

Duel Wield attacks count as 2 attackers. So with 2 weapons you actually reduce the evade rate of someone.

Tests that have been done so far regarding 2h/duel wield.

put Duel wield weapons at an ~30% evade rate and 2h at cap 50% evade rate.

There is no advantage to using 2h at all.. only disadvantages.

 

[Derric]

Originally posted by old.Emma

There is no advantage to using 2h at all.. only disadvantages.

Lies,2h looks cool.

 

[old.mattshanes]

Dual wield has never been counted as 2 attackers, it's just like it is now to keep the melee cycle as balanced as possible which it seems so.Although dw does have more of a chance to hit a target with high evade just like a target with a shield.(adding high weaponskill to that makes chances even greater)

Also if dw counted as 2 attackers it wouldn't have no advantage over shield which it does.

For example:

2h>dw>shield etc

 

[Damon_D]

Well what ever the mech behind its is, 2H suck's.. and thats just the plain truth....

 

[old.mattshanes]

Due to the population of the classes at the current state yes, but hit a class with 2 weapons, they will rarely parry a 2h user.Unless they have high evade like assasins do :E

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by old.Emma
Not established anything yet. As you have yet to post wether you have any hp oriantated RA`s like aug con/toughness

Emma has lvl 2 of both.

remove those ra`s and my "HP advantage" is alot less.

Ive got aug con 1 and toughness 1. Even if I got lvl 2 in both you would still have well over 100hp more then my inf, both unbuffed.

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Ive got aug con 1 and toughness 1. Even if I got lvl 2 in both you would still have well over 100hp more then my inf, both unbuffed.

So level 2 of both would mean an extra 50-70 hp for you.

You cant expect to get the same hp as a Norse SB because of there naturally higher Con.

Saracen 50 Con
Norse 70 Con
Briton 60 Con
Kobold 50

if you want to compair your hp to an SB`s compair it to a kobolds as they have the same base con as a saracen, not to a norse sb as they currently have the highest base con out of the different assassin races (Shar NS being the highest in ToA)

 

[Solid]

Can any infil please attempt to explain WHAT the bonus is for a Shadowblade using a 2H weapon, and if they have the brains for it, highlight the accompanying penalties to using a 2H weapon, then quantify just how much of an advantage it is.

Would be interesting to see exactly how much you know about 2H mechanics.

 

[Crashtje]

using a pissing 2h sword agaisnt infils = evaded non stop = dragonfang = death , with slow swing rate EVEN WITH haste, u get hit far to much and the damage per swing doesnt even equal that of the infil / nightshades, 2h on sb`s is a waste of time.

edit: Being the only realm not to have a off-evade stun , 2h swords vs Nightshades / infils = countered with dimaondback / dragonfang = daeth , the followup to diamondback is a wicked style to , vs shadowblades

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by Solid
Can any infil please attempt to explain WHAT the bonus is for a Shadowblade using a 2H weapon, and if they have the brains for it, highlight the accompanying penalties to using a 2H weapon, then quantify just how much of an advantage it is.

Would be interesting to see exactly how much you know about 2H mechanics.

The bonus as far as I can see is extra damage per hit (significantly more) and no need to spec LA freeing up more spec points.

The disadvantage is that one evade from an inf ns and you do no damage for around 8-9 seconds (before and after swing). You also have no offhand hitting them should they evade main hand, you lose a poison on offhand and dont have an off evade stun.

SB's that whinge like fk about DF and whatever the hib versions called then dont spec for their equivalent has to be the stupidest thing ever. Ok its not as good as the other realms but thats no reason not to even spec for it.

Pure 2H sb's deserve everything they get imo .. which is usually a quick death and /rel unless they hide behind 3 other sb's which seems to be the norm atm ~~

 

[vintervargen]

CRY MORE NOOBS QQ

 

[Solid]

Originally posted by bigchief
The bonus as far as I can see is extra damage per hit (significantly more) and no need to spec LA freeing up more spec points.

The disadvantage is that one evade from an inf ns and you do no damage for around 8-9 seconds (before and after swing). You also have no offhand hitting them should they evade main hand, you lose a poison on offhand and dont have an off evade stun.

SB's that whinge like fk about DF and whatever the hib versions called then dont spec for their equivalent has to be the stupidest thing ever. Ok its not as good as the other realms but thats no reason not to even spec for it.

Pure 2H sb's deserve everything they get imo .. which is usually a quick death and /rel unless they hide behind 3 other sb's which seems to be the norm atm ~~

You didnt really explain, you just said "extra damage per hit (significantly more)"

significantly more than what?

its common knowledge that specced LA outdamages 2H so where is this 'more' damage coming from?

Dual wield mechanics are set up to outdamage a 2H weapon at medium and higher spec.

2H = 140% damage.
LA = 120% damage + 0.5% per spec.
at 39 +11 items LA spec = 120% + 25% damage = 145% damage.

In fact an effective spec of 40 LA after items, realm rank and DR realm ability matches the dps potential of a effective 50 weaponspec 2H for a shadowblade. It really doesnt take much for LA to outdamage a 2H. Food for thought. And thats BEFORE the free haste is calculated for style damage!

So again, where is this extra damage you speak of? using a 2H as a shadowblade when you have the option to spec LA is infact a step backwards in dps potential, so why do infs keep banging on about this mythical advantage?

CS openers work in a special way that style damage completely ignores weapon speed, so Perfing is not where a 2H advantage comes from.

Again I ask infs to please highlight and quantify this advantage!

 

[old.Emma]

To add onto Solid`s post, 2H is actually more likely to get evaded due to how the game`s mechanics work.

According to tests done it seems Duel Wield weapons act like multiple attackers by reducing the evade rate of your target.

In the case of a buffed Assassin, the rate of evade while using duel wield drops from 50% (the evade cap) to only 25-30%, yet when 2H weapons are used that evade rate remains at its full 50%.

So infact speccing for pure 2H as an SB is an open invitation to get Dragonfanged by Infils, or Diamond Back'd by Nightshades.

Here`s the thread with the relavent information regarding evade rate tests with 2H weapons and Duel Wield weapons.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?topic=57498506&replies=58

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by Solid
You didnt really explain, you just said "extra damage per hit (significantly more)"

significantly more than what?

its common knowledge that specced LA outdamages 2H so where is this 'more' damage coming from?

Dual wield mechanics are set up to outdamage a 2H weapon at medium and higher spec.

2H = 140% damage.
LA = 120% damage + 0.5% per spec.
at 39 +11 items LA spec = 120% + 25% damage = 145% damage.

In fact an effective spec of 40 LA after items, realm rank and DR realm ability matches the dps potential of a effective 50 weaponspec 2H for a shadowblade. It really doesnt take much for LA to outdamage a 2H. Food for thought. And thats BEFORE the free haste is calculated for style damage!

So again, where is this extra damage you speak of? using a 2H as a shadowblade when you have the option to spec LA is infact a step backwards in dps potential, so why do infs keep banging on about this mythical advantage?

CS openers work in a special way that style damage completely ignores weapon speed, so Perfing is not where a 2H advantage comes from.

Again I ask infs to please highlight and quantify this advantage!

Errr dont have a go at me, im the inf that says 2H spec sb's are gimps and they should all be LA

The extra damage comes in the form of hitting harder. Hence 2H PA, then swap to DW for the rest.

And as for weapon speed not effecting PA ... try perfing with a 2.9speed, then try a 5.0 speed. Theres a huge fking difference.

[edit]

from #daoc.prydwen yesterday ~~

[16:45](bigchief): [16:44] (dokujin): mebim is shite
[16:45](bigchief): he uses a 2h in melee ~~
[16:46]* Ara|Hib fluffles bigchief
[16:46](Melachi[Mid]): is mebim a SB ?
[16:47](bigchief): yes Melachi[Mid]
[16:47](Melachi[Mid]): bigchief whats wrong with him using 2hander in melee then? :F
[16:47](Melachi[Mid]): maybe hes critblade spec
[16:47](bigchief): er
[16:47](bigchief): cos its stupid?
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): er
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): you ever think that
[16:48](bigchief): crap weaponskill anyway
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): with LA mechanics
[16:48](bigchief): 2h = easier for infs etc to evade
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): you relise
[16:48](bigchief): no stun cos hes not using LA should he evade
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): with 1 Left axe skill
[16:48](bigchief): one miss and he loses alot of damage
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): you will hit like a fly
[16:48](bigchief): yes i know
[16:48](bigchief): but a pure crit blade sb spec is crap anyway
[16:48](Melachi[Mid]): so whats his other choice ?
[16:48](bigchief): so its his own fault
[16:49](bigchief): there are sb's on this server who can compete very well solo
[16:49](bigchief): and not one of them is crit spec
[16:49](Melachi[Mid]): yes
[16:49](bigchief): so go figure
[16:49](Melachi[Mid]): yup i know
[16:49](Melachi[Mid]): skzakal and a few
[16:49](bigchief): sure use a 2h to pa
[16:50](bigchief): but swap after that

 

[Solid]

bigchief I understand you agree that 2H sb are lame, bu I dont think you undestand why 2H specifically is so inferior compared to dual wield.

I am not lying when I say that CS openeing style damage completely ignores weapon speed. Whereas all other styles use the weapon delay as a factor in calculating style damage, Perf, BSI and BSII do NOT. It was designed this way so assasins could use very fast weapons with high quickness and still perf or backstab for sufficient damage.

The difference in damage between different speed weapons comes from the BASE damage which is inextricably (sp) tied to the weapon delay.

You dont get any extra dps from using a 2H weapon over dual wielding with 40+ LA spec.

I am sayign that a SB with at least 40 effective LA spec will have a better DPS than a 2H equivalent.

 

[Urgat Rip-Eye]

Err...

Originally posted by Solid
bigchief I understand you agree that 2H sb are lame, bu I dont think you undestand why 2H specifically is so inferior compared to dual wield.

I am not lying when I say that CS openeing style damage completely ignores weapon speed. Whereas all other styles use the weapon delay as a factor in calculating style damage, Perf, BSI and BSII do NOT. It was designed this way so assasins could use very fast weapons with high quickness and still perf or backstab for sufficient damage.

The difference in damage between different speed weapons comes from the BASE damage which is inextricably (sp) tied to the weapon delay.

You dont get any extra dps from using a 2H weapon over dual wielding with 40+ LA spec.

I am sayign that a SB with at least 40 effective LA spec will have a better DPS than a 2H equivalent.

And as for weapon speed not effecting PA ... try perfing with a 2.9speed, then try a 5.0 speed. Theres a huge fking difference.

True in my experience also...

Solid, where does your info come from?

How come slow weapon PA's seem to do so much more damage than fast ones?

not flaming... genuinely want to know this since i am leveling a blade.

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by witte-
No we don't need to lose the spec points , just make dragonfang 6sec.

Df 6sec stun and lose the 2.5specpoints or make it 2nd in a chain

 

[Solid]

Re: Err...

Originally posted by Urgat Rip-Eye
True in my experience also...

Solid, where does your info come from?

How come slow weapon PA's seem to do so much more damage than fast ones?

not flaming... genuinely want to know this since i am leveling a blade.

Read it on VN Boards Urgat, can't confirm whether its gospel or not but the general VN populous seem to believe thats how it works.

 

[mrwhite]

Read it on VN Boards Urgat, can't confirm whether its gospel or not but the general VN populous seem to believe thats how it works so why state it when u dont no yourself my friend perf with slow 2 hd always been more damage for me

 

[Lomald Umilinn]

Originally posted by Melachi[Mid]
I hope to god your not talking about Shadowrun!

of course not .. lol ... that's one crappy mofo RA .. i was talking about Hails of Blows .. which I personally think is a great RA and would die to get on my infil =X

 

[Urgat Rip-Eye]

Hmmm

Ok...


PA with a 2.5sp one handed weapon (not using duel wield)
PA with a 4.0sp one handed weapon (not using duel wield)
PA with a 4.0sp two handed weapon

(numbers just for reference)

If done on the same test subject...

I would imagine the average damage per PA would increase with each test. (with 2 hander giving more damage that a same speed 1 hander because of bonus damage for 2handers)

That is how i understood it worked... Yet Sol, and VN disagree

Thus by VN's logic, all three produce the same damage per PA.


I would be REALLY REALLY interested to see a couple of high level blades test this out for us...

Anyone willing?

 

[Damon_D]

Re: Err...

Originally posted by Urgat Rip-Eye
True in my experience also...

Solid, where does your info come from?

How come slow weapon PA's seem to do so much more damage than fast ones?

not flaming... genuinely want to know this since i am leveling a blade.

the slow weapon does more base dmg..but NOT a HUGE amount.. the diff between me PA'ing with 2h war clever and dual wield is about 80-10o dmg max , if you take into account the dealy of switching weapons , and the loos of a poison on opening blow its ThA SuCk to use a 2h periode

 

[old.Emma]

Urgat

The reason i and others say PA damage is the same isnt down to the damage you see.. ie

you hit some gimp with you axe for 700 (-200)

its the

You perform Perferate Artery perfectly! (+400)

Notice that when you PA a grey con target with either a 2.9 speed 1h axe or a 5.3 spd 2h axe that (+xxx) is always the same it does not increase or decrease like it would when using a normal weapon style like Garrote for instance.

The actual formula used to calculate PA damage are as follows.

First you need to find out the unstyled damage cap for your weapon.

For 1h Weapons its this.

Unstyled Cap = DPS * SPD * 3 *( 1+ (SPD - 2) * 0.03)

For 2h Weapons its this.

Unstyled Cap = DPS * SPD * 3 *( 1+ (SPD - 2) * 0.03)

to get damage cap for 1h weapon, then you do this to get 2h cap

Unstyled Cap * 1 + ( 0.1 + 0.005 * Weapon Spec)

Once you have determined the damage cap for either your 1h or 2h weapon you can then do the calculation for the PA cap which uses the following formula.

75 + CS Spec * 9 + Unstyled Damage Cap

Now for some examples

2.9 Spd Long Dirk

16.5 * 2.9 * 3 * (1 + (2.9 - 2) * 0.03) = 147 (rounded down)

5.5 Spd Exceptional Great Axe

16.5 * 5.5 * 3 * (1 + (5.5 - 2) * 0.03) = 300 (rounded down)
then
300 * (1 + ( 0.1 + 0.005 * 50)) = 406 (rounded down)

Those are the unstyled damage caps for those particular weapons.

We then work on the PA caps based on a base of 50 CS spec

Long Dirk = 75 + 50 * 9 + 147 = 672
2H Axe = 75 + 50 * 9 + 406 = 931

Subtract the base damage from both those caps and you get the style bonus (+xxx)

672 - 147 = 525
931 - 406 = 525

Both styles would look like this when performed in game

You perform Perferate Arterty perfectly! (+525)
you attack someone with your long dirk and hit for 672

You perform Perferate Arterty perfectly! (+525)
you attack someone with your 2H Axe and hit for 931

Hope you understand that ;p

 

[Solid]

Thank You emma for saving me a really complicated post write up

Urgat hope that clears it up for you mate.