[Dragongfang] "balanced, unbalanced, nerf, don't nerf" - discuss!

[ashitaka]

Allright. I'd like to hear serious opinions only on Dragonfang, not "omfg wtf nerfiltratorz wtfpwnd me with I win button".

I don't think Dragonfang is overpowered because:

1) Its thrust, personally I prefer slash as an assassin.
2) Thrust is shit against SB's, wich there are alot of
3) The damage cap on Dragonfang is fairly low compared to other styles, and its not exactly cheap in endurance. Dragonfang alone doesn't kill, considering that spamming a stun-style is utter bollocks, and the dmg is low.
4) Its just a stun. Hib casters have stun, mids have stun, and insta stun, clerics have stun, all shield-specs have stun.. why shouldn't infils have too? The only thing that is really good with Dragonfang is that it don't need any prequesite styles compared to other assassin classes.. but its not deserving of a nerf (imho).
5) If Dragonfang was in Slash I'd think it would be nerfable, but thrust is really gay, and if Dragonfang was nerfed/removed, there would be a silly low ammount of thrustinfils I think.

Opinions please?

 

[chunkage]

Thrust isnt shit against sb's
Its not the damage from dragonfang that kills, its standing there for however many seconds unable to move while being hit with any other style
sb's dont have any kind of similar stun

What would you say Sb's have in their favour?

 

[ashitaka]

They have the LA 2 style chain stun. And yes, thrust is shit on sb's. More shit than slash anyways.

 

[old.windforce]

-200 hitpoints
-2 handed pa
-savage adds

infils are strong. must be a shitty experience to be used to wtfpwn then spamming double frost with your shadowzerker. Not much complains in that time area.

 

[kjel]

DF is a 9 second stun style that comes *straight* off an evade. Hibs don't get that, mids don't get that. Most people meet infils on a 1vs1 basis, so saying mids get instant stun really doesn't cut it - a healer isn't going to kill you in the 6-7 seconds (depending on resists) you're stunned. Lots of infils use the annoying "run through the caster so the qc doesn't land" trick so hib casters are mostly out of luck against an infil too - indeed if a caster is in melee I think we can all say they're usually fuxxed.

While DF may not have a high damage compared to other styles, having someone standing still for 9 seconds is more than enough time for a buffed infil to take down someone (evidently including tanks.)

However, it *is* a level 50 style, and as such, should be fairly uber if someone's going to spec that high. It's also quite safe to say that 99% of the thrust line is a heap of steaming crap so something pfu (pretty f00king uber) as the last style makes up for it.

Personally I'd prefer it to be the 2nd part of a 2 part chain off something like ratfang, which still makes it amazing, but hey, I'm on the receiving end, I'm bound to be biased.

 

[Crashtje]

hibs do a get a *off evade* stun at lvl 26pierce iirc, its 6seconds long and is pretty damn good with its bleed follow-up style, dragonfang on infils is oiverpowered and unbalanced imo, also nerf 2.5spec points infils can spec 50/50/35/35 shadowblads can spec 44/44/35/35 same as nightshade, unfiar imo

 

[kjel]

Oooooo, I stand slightly corrected

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by ashitaka
Allright. I'd like to hear serious opinions only on Dragonfang, not "omfg wtf nerfiltratorz wtfpwnd me with I win button".

I don't think Dragonfang is overpowered because:

1) Its thrust, personally I prefer slash as an assassin.
2) Thrust is shit against SB's, wich there are alot of
3) The damage cap on Dragonfang is fairly low compared to other styles, and its not exactly cheap in endurance. Dragonfang alone doesn't kill, considering that spamming a stun-style is utter bollocks, and the dmg is low.
4) Its just a stun. Hib casters have stun, mids have stun, and insta stun, clerics have stun, all shield-specs have stun.. why shouldn't infils have too? The only thing that is really good with Dragonfang is that it don't need any prequesite styles compared to other assassin classes.. but its not deserving of a nerf (imho).
5) If Dragonfang was in Slash I'd think it would be nerfable, but thrust is really gay, and if Dragonfang was nerfed/removed, there would be a silly low ammount of thrustinfils I think.

Opinions please?

1+2) Its actually a good line.. yes some of the styles are completely useless but and this is the main thing on an assassin based class str/con debuffs dont affect thrust that much. It also means (for an infil) one realm is neutral to your damage and another is either vulnerable or resistant. If your buffed the damage reduction from having a spec AF buff more than makes up for the 10% penalty you have vs resistant armour.

3) Umm dragonfang has a high growth rate like all reactionary and positional styles. DF comes out at 0.85, it also has low end cost like several other reactionary styles. If your damage cap is low thats because your using a fast weapon. I cap at ~340 with a Guarded Rapier. That cap will increase to ~400+ with the Exceptional Rapier in 1.64

4) yes its just a stun but unlike castable stuns it isnt affected by resists or determination. Its useless vs class's that dont hit back ie healing class's or casters, but vs melee classs your chance to evade and use the style is very high.

5) if DF was in slash there would be no need for the thrust line. Like all realms they generally have one spec line with great reactionary/positional styles but poor anytimes. or great anytimes but poor positional/reactionary styles. guess which type slash or thrust fit into.

 

[old.Atrox]

Dragon Fang: 9sec
Frosty Gaze: 7sec

Creeping Death: 7sec

Dragon Fang is reactionary while the other 2 is second in chain ( where as Frosty Gaze is second in chain from Reactionary ), still Dragon Fang got 2sec more stun time, while being easier to pull off.

SB's had their pros with highdmg anytime, pre LA nerf.

This is what happends when you only nerf one class, you leave the counterparts with to much counter strenght.

Imo assassins with stun styles is silly and PA is way to easy to pull off, should work more like Archers Critshot imo.
I doubt Mythic will manage to fix class/realm imbalance.
the only thing you'll see from now on is eyecandy and other tricks to lure more money from you.
so discussing things like realm/class/ra balance is just a waste of time, better to spend time to work on ways to counter it, rather then whine/discuss how it "should" work according to you.

 

[-fwapp-]

Basicly, DF is the scariest thing in the game to non-alb stealthers, the only possible exception being a Savage in the hands of a "The Darkness" fan.
9s is forever in a high quickness either way fight and so many ppl see it as a 50% chance that theyll be instakilled every combat round vs an inf

 

[Crashtje]

Originally posted by -fwapp-
Basicly, DF is the scariest thing in the game to non-alb stealthers, the only possible exception being a Savage in the hands of a "The Darkness" fan.
9s is forever in a high quickness either way fight and so many ppl see it as a 50% chance that theyll be instakilled every combat round vs an inf

LoL! :help:

im a *The Darkness* Fan but i aint got a savage yet (waits for obvious answers)

back to point, dragonfang is a lvl 50style , and shud be kinda uber - but infils shudnt get it so damn easy :/

nerf 2.5spec points

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by ashitaka
They have the LA 2 style chain stun. And yes, thrust is shit on sb's. More shit than slash anyways.

Yeah guesse what..its about as shit as slash on SB's against infil's... And has DF..so nuff said

 

[old.mattshanes]

It's overpowered for an inf due their evade, but not for scout or merc in my view due to them not evading as much.

 

[klavrynd]

what emma said

 

[lakih]

Make it sidepossitional

 

[Rambo]

Originally posted by Crashtje
hibs do a get a *off evade* stun at lvl 26pierce iirc, its 6seconds long and is pretty damn good with its bleed follow-up style, dragonfang on infils is oiverpowered and unbalanced imo, also nerf 2.5spec points infils can spec 50/50/35/35 shadowblads can spec 44/44/35/35 same as nightshade, unfiar imo

i have to agree here in some point, cause 2,5 spec makes a huge difference in the final spec as it looks, but the damage output in the end its not the same, infils and sb's dont hit the same way, as for the guarded rapier emma said, its not that easy to land a DF with such slow weapon while a buffed sb/ns hits you every 2 secs, most infils pa with a g-rapier then switch to long dirk for the rest of the fight, so they DF for 200 (if they are lucky cause usually is much lower).

but anyway as Atrox said we cant have a conclusion here and/or make this game balanced cause in the one hand i think mythic tried to do their best and we talking bullshit cause the game is ok, and in the other hand they might give no shit and care only to find another trick to keep us longer in this game, make us change sc template once again, buy new weapons, hunt new items, nerf our current char and make us level a fotm one, etc etc. The final goal is to take our money. At least we having some fun even we whining/crying here and in the end it worth that money. Btw imo this forum and all these whines is part of the fun...

omg think the female Rambo came out of me and typed this... nerf

 

[Tafaya Anathas]

If some1 thinks DF is overpowered meet with Dracorn (50 slash 50 DW afaik) and then think about it Btw maybe in 1.66 Mythic totally redesign styles, so it has a great chance for changing DF.

 

[Tafaya Anathas]

Originally posted by Crashtje
also nerf 2.5spec points infils

Ok, but then let highlanders to be infils, add +200 hp, 2 hander weaps, kkthxbye

 

[Damon_D]

You dont even wanna go there imho... the xtra spec points are sooo much more valuable than the few xtra hp's and a 2h only like 1% of SB's use... I PA for roughly 100 more dmg with a 2h..and for those 100 dmg I sacrifise my second poison , a second chance to proc on weapon , a follow up that hits before the enemy dies of old age.... you can have my xtra hp's and my 2h'er if I get 2,5 spec points and neutral to infil and NS armor thank you very much..

 

[joe_soap]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
It's overpowered for an inf due their evade, but not for scout or merc in my view due to them not evading as much.

one of the most intelligent posts regard class overpoweredness ive seen in a long time


/bow

 

[Lanfaer]

Like so many before me has written, the thing about DF isn't (only) the 9sec stun, the major fuckup about this style is that it's directly off an evade, no reactionary or anything like that. Even if you manage to get the thrust-inf down to lets say 50% with PA/CD he'll probably land at least one DF on you and then hamstring away for 9sec's without you being able to hit back. Would be fair if the L50 style had a 9sec stun if it was off a evadechain, much like comeback+frostygaze for SB's.

Since the only opponents that stealthers don't choose when to fight are other stealthers, they should have 50/50 vs their own class (assassin/archer) depending on who has the initiative of course.

Personally I'd rather meet a slashinf who hurts a bit more, but then I'll be able to hit back at least

 

[israel-keeper]

having DF is like having CC,giving that style to a 50% evade chance char is stupid
DF =overpowered
infs=overpowered

give SBs dex/con enervasting poison imo

 

[Cyradix]

Yeah, I have so much fun fighting an inf who evades my first attack and kills me before I can take a second swing

nuff said....

 

[Dorin]

every hib or mid stealther knows its unfair to fight against an infil with DF, becouse it comes with the following things:

- specline af buff
- 2.5 points, nothing to sacrifice for df
- its evade based, which most assassins do a lot
- thrust = neutral against all hibs, vulnerable against some mids, few resistant armors, high ws, str/con not affecting it that much
- infil armor is thrust resistant
- mincer friend and the number of infiltrators

So yes giving 2.2 spec points or putting it on a 2nd part of the chain would solve the problem (its a lvl 50 style after all, should be nice but 9s is a bit too much imo, mercfiltrator with Dual Shadows + Dragonfang /droool)

 

[hangianix]

And what about specline haste on ns ?

 

[Tasos]

Originally posted by kjel
DF is a 9 second stun style that comes *straight* off an evade. Hibs don't get that, mids don't get that.

What about diamondback? :x

 

[Tasos]

Originally posted by old.Atrox
Imo assassins with stun styles is silly and PA is way to easy to pull off, should work more like Archers Critshot imo.

Dunno about u but i ussually have 3 secs delay...so PA isn't actually like archer's critshoot for me

 

[scarffs]

Nice post Rambo.

I have no experience in the assassin fights, but I have been on the receiving end quite some times and I also do feel that the total of the advantages an infiltrator has over sb and ns is unfair.

As usual when adjusting a class, they did not adjust the counterparts in other realms. Shouldnt be too hard doing some assassin testing on pendragon and finding the same then all of us do ?

 

[case-rigantis]

dragonfang is the only defence i have against buffgimps so IMO nerf buffbots THEN look at the thrust line

 

[Dorin]

Originally posted by hangianix
And what about specline haste on ns ?

would dump that for passive ap tbh