[Dragongfang] "balanced, unbalanced, nerf, don't nerf" - discuss!

[Lanfaer]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Unbuffed stealthers on Prydwen are not that rare fyi. Perhaps on Excal but not so on Prydwen.

I dont have 1800...check this:

Uma

same hp as my sb unbuffed, so what's your point?

 

[zapzap]

Kobold with best buffs 2111 hp 309 str aug str 3 augcon 3 toughness 3 , Amazing 175 icyB which is second in chain add my DR 3 there to my 44 axe 44 leftaxe. Sounds good well when u are hit for 290 back it sux big time not to talk about if no purge up the chance of wining is close to 0. Need to purge the debuff or the stun hmmm I need Purge on 3sec timer .

Give thrust weapons my 368 dex would be nice then, move DF to second in chain Take my 150 hp extra and give me 2.5 spec then we maybe even.

Fun no coz we not suppose to be even.

Maybe give sb some extra damage when hitting with 2h and a stun of evade with 2h that is thrust only for sb and hunter.

Zapsi

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by Damon_D
You didnt get my point did you.. WHAT DEFENCE DOES NS's AND SB's HAVE AGANINST BUFFED INFILS NADA NIX NUMBSDA.. We dont have diddly , but you think its you right to have a defence against buffed SB's and NS's ..geee that sounds fair...

NS's have AP and Diamondback as defense. AP is on a 15 min timer so quite likely you will find it up. Diamondback is shorter duration stun, but also easier to spec for (leaving options as higher CD available).

SB's have no defense, except Comeback-chain which is prolly hard to pull off. SB's do have more hp due to higher hp/con-ratio and access to higher con race. No matter how much you compare and stuff, you cannot change those 2 facts.

 

[Lanfaer]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
I don't get you...I get flamed despite suggesting SB love. I guess there's no pleasing some people

We won't need help if DF is no longer an evade-style. Same thing with NS's evade>stun style, no class that has high evade should be able to land a winning blow that easily. Cause that's what evade>stun is unless the victim has purge ready (which isn't a viable option, needing an RA to negate a combatstyle!!!).

For instance: at a milegate in emain I backstabbed an inf ~300+ then landed another blow for ~150+, the inf purged the poisons and started swinging, second swing was a DF which stunned me for those lovely 9secs, I was fully buffed at the moment and when stun wore off I had like 10-15% of hp left ... yeah it's really fair that infs should have an evadestyle with a long duration stun on it ... FOAD muppets


PS. flame wasn't intended specifically at Uma, but at infs in general who defend DF being evade>stun and long duration.

 

[VodkaFairy]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
Giving infils 2.2x specpoints and removing DF will put Infils down to the bottom and make NS king of the hill.

You forgot to mention Nightshades have by far the best RA's (Avoid Pain, Wild Arcana, no matter what you tell me, WA is one of the best passive RA's for a Nightshade)

I'm don't want both nerfs, I only want one...

Speccing 50 in a skill is a _lot_ of points for a ns or sb, but infs can even spec 2 lines to 50 without much of a problem... Either bring DF back in line or give infils 2.2 x spec. (Preferably the last option).

WA isn't the best passive RA for a nightshade, 15% to crit debuff.. weeee!!! Against a 80% chance a inf will get DF in. And that's still a rr1l0 infiltrator, a NS has to be rr2l0 (purge) rr4l9 (ap3) and voila, rr6l3 (wa3).

And that other unbuffed infil guy: Exactely where did I say it's easy to get DF in? I'm COMPARING it to other assassins styles. I'll say it again, maybe you didn't understand:

MORE specpoints for infils, BEST after-evade stun in the ENTIRE game

LESS specpoints for ns, AVERAGE after-evade stun (but a uberleet 30 dmg dd every 20 secs to make up for less specpoints and 1000 dmg per DF)

LESS specpoints for sb, NO after-evade stun (but 200 hp to compensate the 1000 dmg they will eat from df, fair!)

I'm looking at the stats, inf >>>> ns > sb. SURE I can counter infs with ap and purge, but it shouldn't be like that. I shouldn't have to be rr4l9 to stand a chance against your average powerleveled warder :F

Your reasoning about DF is just so wrong.. 1 unbuffed inf doesn't reflect the entire inf class...

 

[inqy]

I've respecced and re-done sc uma, beat me now

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by Lanfaer
same hp as my sb unbuffed, so what's your point?

Read the thread...Vodkafairy suggested infs have 1800hp...I showed I don't.

Get full SC and you will have more hps like Emma.

 

[Puppetmistress]

Originally posted by VodkaFairy

WA isn't the best passive RA for a nightshade, 15% to crit debuff.. weeee!!! Against a 80% chance a inf will get DF in. And that's still a rr1l0 infiltrator, a NS has to be rr2l0 (purge) rr4l9 (ap3) and voila, rr6l3 (wa3).

Debuffs can crit up to 100% I think,right ? So reducing your opponent his hp to a ridiculious number (I've been debuffed on my friar to somewhere around 900-950hp) and lowering his WS by tremendous results is not good?

Also dont forget you can purge that debuff but you cannot regain the lost hp easily unless healprocs/potions are used. WA also gives you the chance to crit on DoT's. And DoT-procs on your armour/weapon.

You say you think WA is not the best passive RA to get, might be true, but I remember from previous discussions with you, you try and focus on your melee-site in order to compeed with infiltrators, which will never work for a pierce NS due to armour-tables and more spec-points on infils resulting in higher weaponspec.

Yes, NS lack fresh out of level 50 and prolly cannot compeed with a RR1 infil landing his Dragonfang. But once you get RR5 you start to be able to compeed (if you're on even terms) and RR6+ I would say you have a very good chance of survival if either Purge or AP is up.

From my point of view the strength of the nightshade lies in his magic (access to WA) and access to AP. You dont see it that way, which is fine, you got a NS, I dont

But high melee-output doesnt cut it when you're stunned for 9 seconds, where a DoT ticking for 110 / tick and a hp-debuff to 1100-1200 (on buffed infil) surely helps ALOT.

IF you use 3 weapons with debuffs/DoT's WA3 gives you a chance of 40% to crit on atleast 1. Reactive DoT-procs, weapon procs even up this chance.

When I analyze a lost fight with my friar against a NS it always comes down to:

a) High damage from the DoT-proc
b) High STR/CON debuff reducing my hp to silly ammounts
c) Diamondback
d) High evade from him.
e) AP used

In a straight melee fight they cannot compeed and rightfully so. Focus on magic instead and you will see more wins.

Like I said: Yes, NS lack fresh out of the box, after that you have different ways of going:

a) Increasing your own damage in melee (higher weaponspec; where you simply cannot exceed the infil with 50 weapon)
b) Increasing your 'magical' damage (either by Viper or WA)
c) Decreasing dmg. taken by buying AP


The way I see it you will never compeed with an infil on melee, because of armour-tables (Alb leather resistant to thrust where yours is neutral) and the fact infils spec 50 weapon. So option a, will reduce the gap but you will never be better

Option b is something which you can win over an infiltrator because he cannot get those abilities. Pure and simple.

Option c is a no-brainer. Same reasoning as option b.

I agree Viper is too expensive probably unless you get real high RR. 14 points is too much,

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by Lanfaer
For instance: at a milegate in emain I backstabbed an inf ~300+ then landed another blow for ~150+, the inf purged the poisons and started swinging, second swing was a DF which stunned me for those lovely 9secs, I was fully buffed at the moment and when stun wore off I had like 10-15% of hp left ... yeah it's really fair that infs should have an evadestyle with a long duration stun on it ... FOAD muppets


PS. flame wasn't intended specifically at Uma, but at infs in general who defend DF being evade>stun and long duration.

Once he used purge you would lose, DF or not. He is no longer subject to strcon debuffs etc whereas you are. Assuning he is fully buffed, you probably took off 20 - 25% of his hps, so you would lose even if DF didn't land.

If you had purge too I guess you would have won as you can purge his DF and the poisons.

If he didn't purge you would have won.

Purge cost you that fight.

Anyway, as I keep saying, sure give SBs access to an evade stun style at more accessible levels. I'd be happy to see a stun style in LA at 21 spec say. Happy with that idea??

 

[Ximadir]

Nerf dragonfang mkay.

 

[witte-]

Originally posted by Crashtje
tha 200hps that a sb supposedly gets, aint always true because im sure Wittor / Elajt gets over 2k and i usually get 1975 _capped_ :/

2012hp but I have con 3 and though 3 and moa4 ;d

 

[old.Sko]

bet you sb people miss old la growth rates

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by witte-
2012hp but I have con 3 and though 3 and moa4 ;d

nerf jooo witte

 

[-RG-Jaond]

nice some df wajn on pryd to

nerf dragonfang!!!111

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Aoln
Anyone noticed there was never any whine about this back when SBs had uber LA?

Ever thougt about sbs had a conter to df then?

And its have been whine about dragonfang along time before 1.62 to just not as much

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by Tafaya Anathas
Ok, but then let highlanders to be infils, add +200 hp, 2 hander weaps, kkthxbye

Sure highlander infils :great:

And i want a troll sb

I will trade my 50 extra hp and 2h anyday for 2.5specpoints

 

[the_smurflord]

Also you're forgetting that our two main stealth attack openers both have small stun components in them. So if you actually use your main opening attacks you invoke the 30 second stun immunity timer and render dragonfang useless. A pretty major drawback if you ask me.

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by the_smurflord
Also you're forgetting that our two main stealth attack openers both have small stun components in them. So if you actually use your main opening attacks you invoke the 30 second stun immunity timer and render dragonfang useless. A pretty major drawback if you ask me.

Dont know any infils using cd cause they know they will evade and then BANG 9sec stun = insta win if sbs purge is down

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by case-rigantis
MY only defence against buffgimps like you is dragonfang

now FOAD with the rest of your buffgimp pals

You can take out an buffed sb/ns cause of dragonfang and still dont think its overpowerd?

:scared:

 

[witte-]

nerf, Jaond took the thread over
/me waits at Nalistah

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by -RG-Jaond
You can take out an buffed sb/ns cause of dragonfang and still dont think its overpowerd?

:scared:

So PA is overpowered? Land PA on a buffed SB and them not have purge up I could win unbuffed (used to do it all the time in HW). Landing DF in the same situation is hard though. Evade of an unbuffed infil against a buffed opponent is low. Would rarely land df in one of those fights.

And for the person that says infs dont use CD ..

merfils dont use CD as the chances are they dont have it. Any 'normal spec' inf would. I would take a 6-7sec stun guaranteed over a 9sec 'if i get an evade in' stun anyday.

 

[witte-]

Originally posted by bigchief
I would take a 6-7sec stun guaranteed over a 9sec 'if i get an evade in' stun anyday.

Depends on the class that u are fighting .. and its not like u won't evade in a fight ..

 

[-RG-Jaond]

aye its overpowerd

if a unbuffed class killing a fullybuffed class isnt overpowerd i dont know what is.

And pa dont do much cause the str/con debuff take out that

 

[Cyradix]

Well I just ran into 3 infs in 20 min. Evade + DF at my 2nd or 3rd swing each time. Both fully buffed and blablabla....

You can say "cry more noob" now!

 

[uma_thurman]

Originally posted by -RG-Jaond
aye its overpowerd

if a unbuffed class killing a fullybuffed class isnt overpowerd i dont know what is.

And pa dont do much cause the str/con debuff take out that

Nobody has a god-given right to win every time just because they are buffed.

 

[-RG-Jaond]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Nobody has a god-given right to win every time just because they are buffed.

Buffs is a HUGE difference god-given or not buffed>unbuffed

 

[Derric]

I like popcorn.

 

[taobitzz]

Not gonna mention all the obvious advantages infs have as ppl have covered most here, but as we talking about df, it also allows infs to spam high dmg low end after evade styles while the sb cant unless he evades two times in a row, and manages to actually land the fg stun style which doesnt have high/veryhigh to hit bonus, a lot less likely.

I just wish my main hand dmg was more than infs off hand dmg :< (then again im just using all mp armour/weapons and have a level 50 aug bot with moa4, I shouldnt expect to have even similar dmg)
thrust or slash dont seem to matter Kinda bad reading the mid vnboards, like 100 account cancelations in 1 thread alone :/ with the rest just rerolling infs to kill the few sb who persevere, and sb certainly not a fun char to play atm, as having solo lower cons and casters as your only source of rp, or the extremely rare unbuffed solo assassin.

As the game advances more and more classes finding it hard to get a role in rvr which is a shame as a lot of people have invested so much time into thier char of choice rather than the fotm ppl who will do better anyway due to mythic not the actual ppl playing them.

Speaking of which anyone got level 20 inf gear spare on alb/excal?

 

[behatch]

Originally posted by Tafaya Anathas
If some1 thinks DF is overpowered meet with Dracorn (50 slash 50 DW afaik) and then think about it Btw maybe in 1.66 Mythic totally redesign styles, so it has a great chance for changing DF.

yes,we know mercfils need nerfing aswell,they hit for about 250 a swing(thrust speccd infil) and yes that does hurt and definatly when they wtfpwn 1 button fortehwin am not gay relaly my bf says am not STFU,toss pot

 

[behatch]

Originally posted by taobitzz



Speaking of which anyone got level 20 inf gear spare on alb/excal?

u'll be lucky,alb excal peeps are tight gets