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mavericky
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- #61
Do you have aug con2, and toughness2, as the shadowblades with over 2k will have some combination of these RA's. Its not as if we have anything better spend our RA points on
[Dragongfang] "balanced, unbalanced, nerf, don't nerf" - discuss!
Do you have aug con2, and toughness2, as the shadowblades with over 2k will have some combination of these RA's. Its not as if we have anything better spend our RA points on
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old.Emma
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- #62
Originally posted by Aoln
Anyone noticed there was never any whine about this back when SBs had uber LA?
There was hardly any whine from SB`s about DF back then because LA damage was a good counter messure. NS`s had there AP (although stupid considering the cost for it). Both class's had Purge.
As it stands now the only counter SB`s have to DF is a 30 minute timed RA. There is not better damage, the extra hp we gain is easily negated by using lvl 47 str/con debuff (which few SB`s can afford to spec for if they wish to retain some form of decent melee damage)
NS`s still have there AP and Purge, AP every 15 mins and purge every 30 mins. Along with there very own stun off evade in Pierce if they choose to spec that way.
So Sb`s have only way of countering DF..
NS`s get 2 plus the ability to stun there target also.
Personally i find the biggest problem with Dragonfang is that once that style is landed Infils can then go through the highest damage chain in the game. Hamstring/Leaper/Rib Seperation.
No other chain comes close to the damage that chain can produce.
Ive never had trouble with diamondback (NS stun style) its only 5 seconds long and doesnt seem like etternity when you do get stunned by it. Atleast you stand a chance of turning the fight in your favour with some skill instead of just getting totally mashed with Dragonfang because of its 9 second stun.
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VodkaFairy
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- #63
Infact, it was more than 1500 damage and I'll get the proof for you soon. It was Cyclodia who whined about it, his first hit got evaded, DF'd, blabla, etc, he died before stun wore off and he is the most active NS on excal atm. Check duskwave. He has about 1900 hp and it was all gone in 9 secs apparantly. He recorded it so you'll see it soon ;p
You are so defending my points, dragonfang is too strong, because if you are unbuffed and you can kill buffed ns and sb if you get dragonfang in. Go figure, when you are buffed too, and get df in (which is almost every fight).
Oh and I'm not at all taking an arrogant stance, I don't have my own bot either, but based on pure facts it's almost suicide going to rvr unbuffed. In the rare case I meet a unbuffed sb duo its kinda easy to kill both with more than 50% hp left ...
Just compare the classes without buffs, or anything:
Inf:
9 sec stun
50 thrust 44 cs, 18 dw, 35 stealth/envenom
Ns:
30 dmg insta dd every 20 seconds
5 sec stun
44 pierce, 39 cs, 20 cd, 35 stealth/envenom
Do you see the difference? It would be fairer if NS had dragonfang, to compensate the lack of specpoints compared to infils. Or even better, give infils 2.2 x spec and remove after evade stuns from assassins completely...
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old.Emma
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- #64
For a start you must be a Saracen then with there base 50 con.
So thats if your compairing to Norse SB`s who do get over 2k hp (Kobolds do not) 30 con difference if you didnt put +10 at start or 20 con if you did.
20 con = 76 hp difference
30 con = 114 hp difference
Infil/NS get 3.5 hp per con point
SB gets 3.8 hp per con point
A Briton infil buffed with mota4 buffs can get damn close to 2k believe i have something like 195x on mine with aug con 2 and toughness 2.
Hardly that much of a difference tbh.
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old.Sandariel
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- #65
First of all, if you start to compare assassins...
Why is no one comparing:
Wizards to Runemasters?
Necros to BDs?
Cabbies to Enchanters?
Rangers to Scouts and Hunters?
Warriors to Armsmen and Heros?
Bards to Minstrels and Skalds?
Savages to Reavers and Animists?
...
There's a lot of unbalance between the classes in each category (primary nuker, archer, etc....), but all we see every day is people comparing SBs to Infs, as if the most important thing in this game would be to make SBs = Infs = NSs.
Yes, it's true, Infs are better, and I wouldn't mind if all assassins would be perfectly balanced, but what do you try to accomplish with these flamewhines?
Want to get Infs nerfed?
Why don't you try to get SBs improved instead?
So how do you want to nerf Infs then? Nerf DF?
Yay, everyone will go slash then which would be even worse for SBs. Do you really want to be hit for 20% more damage?
Nerf 2.5 spec points? Go ahead, can still get a viable spec with 2.2 spec points. Then we'd need to get something due to NS DDs and SB HPs tho.
Nerf dualshadows? I don't mind, Mercs would, tho.
So nothing would really hurt infs, well, not me, dunno about the other infs out there...
If you really want to get assassins balanced:
1. nerf bots
2. make LA work like CD/DW
3. give SBs a dex weapon and some direct reactionary stun in a line that has no other usefull styles
4. wait
5. watch carefully how assassins compare to each other
6. ->do some more finetuning
Just my 2ct.
Flame away
Why is no one comparing:
Wizards to Runemasters?
Necros to BDs?
Cabbies to Enchanters?
Rangers to Scouts and Hunters?
Warriors to Armsmen and Heros?
Bards to Minstrels and Skalds?
Savages to Reavers and Animists?
...
There's a lot of unbalance between the classes in each category (primary nuker, archer, etc....), but all we see every day is people comparing SBs to Infs, as if the most important thing in this game would be to make SBs = Infs = NSs.
Yes, it's true, Infs are better, and I wouldn't mind if all assassins would be perfectly balanced, but what do you try to accomplish with these flamewhines?
Want to get Infs nerfed?
Why don't you try to get SBs improved instead?
So how do you want to nerf Infs then? Nerf DF?
Yay, everyone will go slash then which would be even worse for SBs. Do you really want to be hit for 20% more damage?
Nerf 2.5 spec points? Go ahead, can still get a viable spec with 2.2 spec points. Then we'd need to get something due to NS DDs and SB HPs tho.
Nerf dualshadows? I don't mind, Mercs would, tho.
So nothing would really hurt infs, well, not me, dunno about the other infs out there...
If you really want to get assassins balanced:
1. nerf bots
2. make LA work like CD/DW
3. give SBs a dex weapon and some direct reactionary stun in a line that has no other usefull styles
4. wait
5. watch carefully how assassins compare to each other
6. ->do some more finetuning
Just my 2ct.
Flame away
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mavericky
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- #66
I think you should be quoting bigchief there, i'm a shadowblade
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mavericky
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- #67
Stealthers mainly fight against stealthers, where as all the other classes fight each other in full groups. If your class is lacking you dont have other classes to back you up
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Harhr
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- #68
to get back to the subject dragonfang
infs use DETAUNT to get off an easier evade, does that tell us something?
Sb's extra HP isnt too good when u get hit for 1500dmg in 9 secs.
thanks.
infs use DETAUNT to get off an easier evade, does that tell us something?
Sb's extra HP isnt too good when u get hit for 1500dmg in 9 secs.
thanks.
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old.mattshanes
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- #69
Nope, you do know defence penalty is only effects the chance of attacker missing?not you evading? but i said my opinion earlier of dragonfang and it's true xD
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Fafnir
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- #70
You forgot!!!
Thanes to Champions and Paladins.
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uma_thurman
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- #71
Originally posted by Damon_D
Nice reasoning there..so what styles does a SB or NS get, when he/she unbuffed meet's a buffed infil ( 98,5 % of em are buffed )
to have a chance of winning....
/release thats what we get... But ofcourse its your god given right to be better of than those classes..so I can see why you should have DF and 2,5 spec points
<sigh>
I never said I wanted to make infils better... just what VF said was wrong. DF is the only defence thrust infils have against buffed assassins.
The fact that unbuffed SBs having "no chance" versus buffed infils is not a dragonfang problem, but an SB problem. I have said all along that SBs need a little help now.
So don't flame me
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uma_thurman
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- #72
No - I'm saying that all assassins should have a chance against other classes, like all classes should really. Thrust infs get DF and pierce shades get diamondback. SBs need something to help them but removing DF is not the answer.
I hardly meet assassins 1v1 but I can tell you I have lost to:
Szakal
Cylian
Marath
Dweni
Sydney
Risser
plus more
and I have beaten 1v1
Szakal
Marath
Tooth
Iniquity
and various others
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Nonnier
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- #73
savages, reavers and animists?
don't you mean valewalkers?
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uma_thurman
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- #74
Originally posted by VodkaFairy
Infact, it was more than 1500 damage and I'll get the proof for you soon. It was Cyclodia who whined about it, his first hit got evaded, DF'd, blabla, etc, he died before stun wore off and he is the most active NS on excal atm. Check duskwave. He has about 1900 hp and it was all gone in 9 secs apparantly. He recorded it so you'll see it soon ;p
You are so defending my points, dragonfang is too strong, because if you are unbuffed and you can kill buffed ns and sb if you get dragonfang in. Go figure, when you are buffed too, and get df in (which is almost every fight).
Oh and I'm not at all taking an arrogant stance, I don't have my own bot either, but based on pure facts it's almost suicide going to rvr unbuffed. In the rare case I meet a unbuffed sb duo its kinda easy to kill both with more than 50% hp left ...
Just compare the classes without buffs, or anything:
Inf:
9 sec stun
50 thrust 44 cs, 18 dw, 35 stealth/envenom
Ns:
30 dmg insta dd every 20 seconds
5 sec stun
44 pierce, 39 cs, 20 cd, 35 stealth/envenom
Do you see the difference? It would be fairer if NS had dragonfang, to compensate the lack of specpoints compared to infils. Or even better, give infils 2.2 x spec and remove after evade stuns from assassins completely...
Let's see the screenie...but I can assure you that is not the norm.
Yes I am defending dragonfang...as I stressed earlier it's my defence against buffed SBs/NSs. In practice though I hardly land it on those targets anyway as I rarely evade them, so it's largely useless then. Getting a DF in every fight is just not true.
If you wanna start comparing classes like that then we can mention AP, viper, DDs etc too, so don't try to argue shades need DF. It's common knowledge that shades at rr5+ are the strongest assassins. So what should infils get to "compensate" for not having the uber NS RAs?
It's not suicide to go out there without buffs. We both got many RPs without buffs so please try another argument.
I'm all for SBs getting some help to combat buffed infs and shades, but addressing DF is not the problem. The only things shades can really ask for is stronger DDs, as other than that they are fine imo.
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old.Sandariel
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- #75
Originally posted by Fafnir
You forgot!!!
Thanes to Champions and Paladins.
Aye, knew I forgot some
Well, were just a few examples anyway Originally posted by Nonnier
savages, reavers and animists?
don't you mean valewalkers?
Bah, yeah, forgot to think before writing
Yes, meant Valewalkers
And stealthers can't group?
And what about picking off people in big skirmishes?
I do that quite a lot (picking off people in skirmishes, not the grouping part, solo almost always), being unbuffed I lose to most Assassins anyway
I usually run around 20 to 30 minutes without fighting, picking my fights carefully. I don't make uber RPs, but I have fun and actually kill something every now and then
Oh, and /agree Uma =)
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VodkaFairy
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- #76
You as the rare individual that doesn't have buffs doesn't reflect the entire class "Infiltrator".. lol..
Viper is useless, dd does 30 dmg every TWENTY seconds, you get that ? How many hp do you have? 1800? Id take me a month to kill you with the dd. AP is good, but it costs 28 points, only to counter something a inf at rr1 already has- high dmg.
On exc, its suicide to go to emain unbuffed, period. I dont know pryd, but everyone is slowly getting a bot so
Exactely why would a nightshade need purge, and avoid pain ( 38 points in total -> rr4l8) to counter something a rr1l1 infiltrator already has..
im talking about infils in general, not you
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azshara
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- #77
imo.... nerf DF so all infs respec slash, and then i can farm them.
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azshara
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- #78
AP3 is 29 points btw vudka
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Ottar
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- #79
> SBs need something to help them but removing DF is not the answer.
When SB's had LA, nerfing it was the answer, no?
> I hardly meet assassins 1v1 but I can tell you I have lost to:
I didnt ask you who you have lost to during your way to rr5. I doubt you have kept reliable statistics over long run, so I asked, last 5 fights 1 vs 1, unbuffed vs unbuffed, how many fights did you win, how many lose?
Mid gankgroups are uber. Gankgroups should be compared against gankgroups. Only alb gankgroup I know is PE. I asked Fadeh, how many fights with equal numbers do they actually -lose- against mid gankgroups. No answer.
Savages are uber. Nerf. Selfbufs will get if not removed, then nerfed to half the duration and to approximately to 250% of their current hp cost, hp to endurance conversion - same cost increase. On assumtion that as fights last less than 30s, the cost in hploss does not come into play until fight is over. Just logged off. Last fight at amg. SoS. 30 seconds. Cant kill support - cant catch them. Only available target is tanks that get healed. SoS runs off. Switch to clerics. BoF. 40-80 damage per hit with slowest craftable 2h. Another 30s. BoF runs out. Merc runs by, dirty tricks. Misses and fumbles for another 10s. 70 seconds worth of fight, savage and warrior assisting on 2 targets, not being able to get neither of them below 50% hp during that time. Still, nerfing savages obviously was the answer. 2h dps nerf is not even worth a mention. On that BoF'ed cleric I would lose on average 6 points of damage per swing. Out of 60.
Only cases where vindictive nerfing is not the answer are infiltrators and albion group realm abilities?
Ottar
When SB's had LA, nerfing it was the answer, no?
> I hardly meet assassins 1v1 but I can tell you I have lost to:
I didnt ask you who you have lost to during your way to rr5. I doubt you have kept reliable statistics over long run, so I asked, last 5 fights 1 vs 1, unbuffed vs unbuffed, how many fights did you win, how many lose?
Mid gankgroups are uber. Gankgroups should be compared against gankgroups. Only alb gankgroup I know is PE. I asked Fadeh, how many fights with equal numbers do they actually -lose- against mid gankgroups. No answer.
Savages are uber. Nerf. Selfbufs will get if not removed, then nerfed to half the duration and to approximately to 250% of their current hp cost, hp to endurance conversion - same cost increase. On assumtion that as fights last less than 30s, the cost in hploss does not come into play until fight is over. Just logged off. Last fight at amg. SoS. 30 seconds. Cant kill support - cant catch them. Only available target is tanks that get healed. SoS runs off. Switch to clerics. BoF. 40-80 damage per hit with slowest craftable 2h. Another 30s. BoF runs out. Merc runs by, dirty tricks. Misses and fumbles for another 10s. 70 seconds worth of fight, savage and warrior assisting on 2 targets, not being able to get neither of them below 50% hp during that time. Still, nerfing savages obviously was the answer. 2h dps nerf is not even worth a mention. On that BoF'ed cleric I would lose on average 6 points of damage per swing. Out of 60.
Only cases where vindictive nerfing is not the answer are infiltrators and albion group realm abilities?
Ottar
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azshara
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- #80
hmmm, isnt Ottar the name of RFSU's sex&summit magazine? ;d
(its rly funneh btw.)
(its rly funneh btw.)
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Crashtje
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- #81
tha 200hps that a sb supposedly gets, aint always true because im sure Wittor / Elajt gets over 2k and i usually get 1975 _capped_ :/
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uma_thurman
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- #82
Originally posted by VodkaFairy
You as the rare individual that doesn't have buffs doesn't reflect the entire class "Infiltrator".. lol..
Viper is useless, dd does 30 dmg every TWENTY seconds, you get that ? How many hp do you have? 1800? Id take me a month to kill you with the dd. AP is good, but it costs 28 points, only to counter something a inf at rr1 already has- high dmg.
On exc, its suicide to go to emain unbuffed, period. I dont know pryd, but everyone is slowly getting a bot so
Exactely why would a nightshade need purge, and avoid pain ( 38 points in total -> rr4l8) to counter something a rr1l1 infiltrator already has..
im talking about infils in general, not you
Unbuffed stealthers on Prydwen are not that rare fyi. Perhaps on Excal but not so on Prydwen.
I dont have 1800...check this:
Uma
I have been ganked by shades. Let me say this again - I do not get DF off every fight. So DF is not the "I win every fight" button ppl make out. When it strikes it is good, but it is not every fight.
I have had shades use diamondback on me before, but I don't whine about it.
The way you talk VF you make it seem that shades cannot beat infils. I don't think things are so bad.
I have a shade on excal I'm slowly levelling up and I'll try to compete. I'm conscious of the buffbot situation, but I'll earn my early RPs in DF if I have to if everyone else has buffbots.
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uma_thurman
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- #83
SBs pre-LA nerf were far too powerful - everyone agrees they needed toning down; however most agree they need a little help now. The power of LA pre-nerf was a far bigger advantage than having dragonfang.
As for 1v1s, there are not that many against SBs/NSs these days for the simple matter that in Emain there are virtually no solo stealthers, same for Odins too. So I have to think back a long way for 5 solo stealther fights. I told you who I have beaten and who has defeated me, but clearly thats not good enough for you. I suggest you speak to your SB friends and ask them if I strike fear into them by continually ganking them. They will laugh at you if you suggest I win all my solo fights. Go on..ask them.
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Damon_D
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- #84
You didnt get my point did you.. WHAT DEFENCE DOES NS's AND SB's HAVE AGANINST BUFFED INFILS NADA NIX NUMBSDA.. We dont have diddly , but you think its you right to have a defence against buffed SB's and NS's ..geee that sounds fair...
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old.Emma
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- #85
So your a Saracen and unbuffed. There for you have no chance of getting the 2k hp a buffed norse SB can get.
But for arguements sake here`s some facts.
Emma rr5l7 SB, 167 Con (aug con 2, toughness 2) 1421 hp (hits off cap by 31)
Uma 134 con, (unknown aug con/toughness) 1272 hp.
your con is 33 lower than mine to start with if your con was the same as Emma`s you would have 1387 hp.
Not that much different there.. a whole 34 hp.
I know SB`s get more hits per con point but just goes to show the different based on equal stats isnt that great.
Sure buffs make a different. a buffed norse SB with mota4 red buffs can get upto 2.1k hp maybe 2.2k if they have high level`s of aug con and toughness.
but then in saying that a briton can get 2k hp as well. you choose a saracen which has naturally low con.. dont complain about poor hp. if you want high hp pick a class with high con.. simple really.
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Appollo
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- #86
Yes i have 2012, but aug con 3 tough 3 and moa4 buffs
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Puppetmistress
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- #87
Giving infils 2.2x specpoints and removing DF will put Infils down to the bottom and make NS king of the hill.
You forgot to mention Nightshades have by far the best RA's (Avoid Pain, Wild Arcana, no matter what you tell me, WA is one of the best passive RA's for a Nightshade)
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Puppetmistress
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- #88
Neglecting the fact infiltrators cannot choose a race with such a high con as Midgard.
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uma_thurman
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- #89
It's spurious to suggest this:
"I know SB`s get more hits per con point but just goes to show the different based on equal stats isnt that great."
Erm I don't have the same con as Emma. I have fully capped SC so there's no way I can get the same con as Emma without buffs. So I'll always have 149 fewer hps than Emma if we both fight unbuffed...simple really
I could never match your con if you have full SC and top buffs.
Furthermore, I'm not complaining about my hp...I just posted to show that it was wrong for Vodkafairy to suggest I have 1800hp or so...simple really
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uma_thurman
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- #90
Originally posted by Damon_D
You didnt get my point did you.. WHAT DEFENCE DOES NS's AND SB's HAVE AGANINST BUFFED INFILS NADA NIX NUMBSDA.. We dont have diddly , but you think its you right to have a defence against buffed SB's and NS's ..geee that sounds fair...
Fucking hell Damon read the whole thread:
Let me say this slowwwwlly:
I'm...all...for...helping...SBs....
Shades can spec for diamondback so that's fine (blades is like slash with no stun style for assassins). Imo having to spec 39 LA for a stun style for SBs is a little harsh, so yes give them a little help.
I don't get you...I get flamed despite suggesting SB love. I guess there's no pleasing some people