[Dragongfang] "balanced, unbalanced, nerf, don't nerf" - discuss!

[Naveh]

SB's are the only ones without off evade stun... even if you dont have shield in Alb you get off Block stun. xD

SB's are a little bit underpowered...but hey... you had it coming you guys were powerful and abused it by not speccing any cs and spec la...

Dragonfang isn't overpowered, it just gets used by every thruster (duh... its quite useful)

 

[Cap]

Don't mind the duration of dragonfang, would be boring with exactly the same style in all realms. Kindow suck for a sb in infil vs sb fights that infils have a much higher chance of evadeing a stun (as they can just evade comeback and then they evade the stun also, or just evade the followup to comeback), they also land their stun faster (as it takes 2 attacks to land a stun vs 1).

But still slash infils who have bonus on mid stealther classes armors hurt also, so just make infils mincers cus I hate stealthing mincers even more I think ^^

 

[Duzzy]

Originally posted by case-rigantis
dragonfang is the only defence i have against buffgimps so IMO nerf buffbots THEN look at the thrust line

 

[bigchief]

Re: Re: [Dragongfang] "balanced, unbalanced, nerf, don't nerf" - discuss!

Originally posted by kjel
Most people meet infils on a 1vs1 basis

I wish. I wouldnt complain so fking much then. For a start there are very few infs who solo so finding a solo inf is rare (only know of a handful that 90% of the time will be solo (inc me )). Despite me being solo I will get ~3 pure solo fights in 2hrs, less at peak times. People add, I meet mid stealth groups, etc.

Dragonfang is only worthwhile when fighting a fair fight. That rarely happens these days, one side will usually have superior numbers, nevermind the fact alot of people have purge these days pretty much negating DF every 30mins.

Another thing is you do actually need to evade to land DF. The amount of fights ive had against a SB (a reasonably high RR admittedly) and not evaded once is insane (with me running around on yellow buffs). If I was permanently unbuffed I dont think id ever evade

As an infil 90% of what I fight are mid stealthers. Thats just how it is, non stealthers tend to run around in groups. All mid stealthers are slash, most dont solo and mid leather/studded is thrust resistant. So thats +10% for them, -10% for me, +200hp for them (or IP for hunters). SB's can evade too and can quite often land their stun. Once they evade I have to either evade the next hit or have purge up or im gone. The same can sort of be applied to them. The fact is, if DF was some shitty style like 50CS spec is, 90% of infils would be slash. Its a top spec style in an otherwise quite wanky line. Nerf DF (and not balance the rest of thrust) and you have a pretty pointless line.

Originally posted by old.Emma
3) Umm dragonfang has a high growth rate like all reactionary and positional styles. DF comes out at 0.85, it also has low end cost like several other reactionary styles. If your damage cap is low thats because your using a fast weapon. I cap at ~340 with a Guarded Rapier. That cap will increase to ~400+ with the Exceptional Rapier in 1.64

yes it has a high growth and low end cost. However it is outdamaged by other evade styles such as hamstring and the numbers you give there are caps. DF in 'real' rvr will hit around 110 with a long dirk, 150 with a gladius. Thats nowhere near the caps.

 

[old.Nedowiz]

Originally posted by Tafaya Anathas
Ok, but then let highlanders to be infils, add +200 hp, 2 hander weaps, kkthxbye

Celt NS then plz.....kkthxbye

 

[inqy]

As it stands Frosty Glaze is harder to perform than Dragonfang (due to DF being straight from an evade and FG being 2nd in Evade chain). Due to the way this is, it would make sense for the easiest (to perform) evade style to give the least stun duration.

This would balance the evade styles at least?

 

[gudrex]

I feel as many of my fellow SBs that infils due to recent patching has become slightly owerpowered. I feel that slashinfils are now what shadowzerkers was before 1.62. And sure dragonfang is a bitch.....but what bothers me most about infils are not the thrust weapons...not the dragonfang nor the better RA.
It is those 2.5 speccpoints per lvl......cause i can't see any reason for them to have .3 extra points per lvl. Sure dragonfang is a lvl 50 specc...but should infils get that uberstyle without gimping something else?
As a shadowblade i now had to dump envenom to do decent damage in melee..and what bothers me is that if i where an infil i could get my specc that i have now and still have 50 in envenom.
Then the infils say..u have more hitpoints and u can use 2 handed weapons. sure we get some more hitpoints but i would gladly trade em for an a dexbased weapon.....since the evadecap was implmented where is no reason whatsoever to do a kobbie SB except for our good looks. And 2 handed weapons?...come on now infils...what infil can say that he use to loose fights agains a SB wielding a 2 hander? Those are just lame excuses and you know it. But i can tell you this...give me 2.5 speccpoints per lvl and i will shut up...i will not complaint over dragonfang...i will not complaint over vanish vs Shadowrun, ...i will not complaint over the ability to use dexbased weapons or the fact that enervating poisons hits us twice as hard. There are many ways an infil has an advance over a SB at this moment but i will shut up about em all if i only could get those extra .3 speccpoints per lvl.

 

[ashitaka]

You all seem to think it's so damn horrible to be stunned by an assassin... what about getting slammed, then getting 2 or 3 Raknarok with a fat twohander in the back of your head? Personally, I'm just as scared of Tanks as I would be of Assassins.

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

Originally posted by old.windforce
-200 hitpoints
-2 handed pa
-savage adds

infils are strong. must be a shitty experience to be used to wtfpwn then spamming double frost with your shadowzerker. Not much complains in that time area.

200 hitpoints - you mean the HP the shadowblade got more then other assasins. Wrong there, i think solid calucated it to 72hp more at L50.

2h PA - good if you are critspec, but i can for sure say that a thrustspec crit infil PAs me harder with a rapier then a CB PAs me.

Savage adds - is that equal to merc adds?

 

[GrivneKelmorian]

Originally posted by ashitaka
You all seem to think it's so damn horrible to be stunned by an assassin... what about getting slammed, then getting 2 or 3 Raknarok with a fat twohander in the back of your head? Personally, I'm just as scared of Tanks as I would be of Assassins.

Hmm, 9 sec stun, fat 2 hander and ragnarok.

If you slam and use 2h sword with ragnarok to do decent dmg you need to use a 5.x+ spd 2h sword. and you cant get 2 hits off, if you use a 5.x+ spd sword.

 

[Lanfaer]

Originally posted by ashitaka
You all seem to think it's so damn horrible to be stunned by an assassin... what about getting slammed, then getting 2 or 3 Raknarok with a fat twohander in the back of your head? Personally, I'm just as scared of Tanks as I would be of Assassins.

you silly silly person, as an assassin we (sb's anyhow since we don't have that spambtn4tehwin) do not jump tanks with bigass shields and mauling 2handers

 

[VodkaFairy]

Originally posted by case-rigantis
dragonfang is the only defence i have against buffgimps so IMO nerf buffbots THEN look at the thrust line

Heh that's ridiculess, you're saying infils that use DF don't have buffs and need it to win against assassin who are buffed ?

If you don't have a bot, don't complain about what does and doesn't need a nerf because you havn't even seen the real assassin world yet. Everyone's buffed, if you aren't, then kinda you don't count...

Just compare infils, ns and shadowblades and the difference is pretty obvious:

Shadowblades get 200 more hp and no after evade stun except the nerfed LA line (second in chain). No haste, no AF on buffbot.
Nightshades get a 30 dmg dd every 20 seconds and a 5 second stun with low damage and medium to-hit. Also spec haste on buffbot. And of course AP3 which costs rsp 28 points but admittedly, is very very good.
Infiltrators get a 9 sec stun with high damage and very high to-hit bonus. Spec AF on a buffbot which is perma 1.0 AP.

Especially with the mercfiltrator spec it's really obvious, inf > ns > sb. I'd say make dragonfang a medium to-hit style at level 39 or so, reduce length to 7 secs, and give infils 2.2 spec points.

Oh, and remove AP from ns and just fix our bloody magic. "Nightshades are strong spellcasters with the ability to hide"

To summarise:

SB get 2h and 200 more hp.
NS get good RA, shit magic, shit HP, average stun which gives an extra 2 hits (~400-500 dmg).
INFs get high weaponskill, high dual wield skill due to specpoints, good HP due to higher con at creation, very good stun for an extra 4 hits (~1000 damage on your average infil, 1500 on good infils).

Dunno who compared slam to dragonfang, but that's an absolutely ridiculess comparison... Slam = VERY high end cost, df = med end use. Slam = NO to hit bonus, df is very HIGH to hit bonus. Infils evade 30-50% which basically means free df every fight, however slam is hard to pull off.

 

[case-rigantis]

Heh that's ridiculess, you're saying infils that use DF don't have buffs and need it to win against assassin who are buffed ?

If you don't have a bot, don't complain about what does and doesn't need a nerf because you havn't even seen the real assassin world yet. Everyone's buffed, if you aren't, then kinda you don't count...

your so wrong here i won`t even go into it ...and what i said was

MY only defence against buffgimps like you is dragonfang

now FOAD with the rest of your buffgimp pals

 

[Damon_D]

LOL Case your logic is soo fare out it made me laugh RL

 

[Fafnir]

Originally posted by ashitaka
You all seem to think it's so damn horrible to be stunned by an assassin... what about getting slammed, then getting 2 or 3 Raknarok with a fat twohander in the back of your head? Personally, I'm just as scared of Tanks as I would be of Assassins.

Trying to slam an infil is just asking for a DF. Slam is over rated, sure its good against chars with low or no evade, if you get them off guard in big battle, but 1 vs 1 even against a tank, slam is mostly just a end drainer if you are without end regen.

The fight i had against Hrodel in yggdra many months ago is a good example, i had just got slam, and tried to slam Hrodel he blocked every single one, and i was out of end, i only won cause i still had ip and FA2 up and he didnt have neither.

Only chance to land a slam on a buffed infil is either by pure luck infront of him, or when he tries to run for it. Comparing slam with df is not an option, sure both got 9 sec stun.

But then again you can always slam with a small shield to reduce the end cost, but its still high.

 

[Damon_D]

My lvl 42 warrior landed a slam on an infil in DF last night,..ok so he was running away after he killed someone..but was kinda cool Then we zerged his arse with a fg of KN , and beat him to a pulp ..but had it not been for my ickle kobi warrior he would have gotten away/stealthed

/em Wave's to Roque

BTW when did SB's or Hunters get slam ??? ...but all alb stealthers has the abillty to get allmost a free stun off ( yeah one of them the SLAM you yourself said you where sooo scared off ashitaka ) Infil's have DF , minstrels insta stun shout , and scouts shield slam...

 

[joe_soap]

Originally posted by case-rigantis
If you don't have a bot, don't complain about what does and doesn't need a nerf because you havn't even seen the real assassin world yet. Everyone's buffed, if you aren't, then kinda you don't count...

Oh, so us infi's that aint sad enough to pay for another account and level a buffbot to wtfpwn and are brave enough to go out unbuffed against you buffgimps dont count?

phhft.

 

[uma_thurman]

Vodkafairy: nice piece of fiction there

Not all assassins have a buffbot, an example being me. If I meet a buffed shade or SB then I will lose no question UNLESS DF lands, then I have a chance.

There are quite a few assassins out there without buffs. Contrary to your arrogant stance, our opinions do count. We're paying customers too. Some of us don't choose to pay for a buffbot account. I'm close to RR5 on my infil without using a buffbot and I could argue my views are more useful than yours, having had to use skill over buffs to get the RPs, but I'm sufficiently open-minded to say that everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I would hardly say a saracen thruster has "good" hp as you say, saying as they have a base con of 50. Sure we can get 4 extra hits in with DF, but 1000 total damage is a joke. Unbuffed versus a shade or SB I'd be lucky to get anywhere near that. The offhand doesn't always hit you know? As for 1500, that's just pure exaggeration. Get some logs as proof instead of making numbers up.

 

[Kedaran_Mid]

It's not the style alone that makes it overpowerd. Dragonfang sure as hell isen't overpowerd on a merc or on a scout or a mincer for that matter.

It's the fact that infils have evade 7, it's directly off evade, it's 9 second and the fact that they don't have to 'gimp' some other line to access this style. When they implentant that backup style thing in I don't remember what patch it just made it easier.

If they had 2.2 spec points like the others it would be better since they'd have to lower something in return for the evade based stun.



-K.

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by uma_thurman
Vodkafairy: nice piece of fiction there

Not all assassins have a buffbot, an example being me. If I meet a buffed shade or SB then I will lose no question UNLESS DF lands, then I have a chance.

Nice reasoning there..so what styles does a SB or NS get, when he/she unbuffed meet's a buffed infil ( 98,5 % of em are buffed )
to have a chance of winning....

/release thats what we get... But ofcourse its your god given right to be better of than those classes..so I can see why you should have DF and 2,5 spec points

 

[Aoln]

Anyone noticed there was never any whine about this back when SBs had uber LA?

 

[Aoln]

Originally posted by Damon_D
My lvl 42 warrior landed a slam on an infil in DF last night,..ok so he was running away after he killed someone..but was kinda cool Then we zerged his arse with a fg of KN , and beat him to a pulp ..but had it not been for my ickle kobi warrior he would have gotten away/stealthed

/em Wave's to Roque

BTW when did SB's or Hunters get slam ??? ...but all alb stealthers has the abillty to get allmost a free stun off ( yeah one of them the SLAM you yourself said you where sooo scared off ashitaka ) Infil's have DF , minstrels insta stun shout , and scouts shield slam...

Roque is a scout

 

[Ottar]

> If I meet a buffed shade or SB then I will lose no question UNLESS DF
> lands, then I have a chance.

Let me get this stright. You are saying that assassin balance is somewhat to your disadvantage assuming unbuffed infiltrator and buffed opponents? 1 on 1, how often do you actually lose against unbuffed shadowblades or nightshades? Can you remember say, last 5 fights, 1 on 1, against unbuffed sb or ns. How many of those did you lose?

Ottar

 

[Damon_D]

Originally posted by Aoln
Roque is a scout

Well hard to tell when you chasing his arse to hit it with a big piece of flat metal

 

[Dunmer]

Originally posted by ashitaka
I don't think Dragonfang is overpowered because:

3) The damage cap on Dragonfang is fairly low compared to other styles, and its not exactly cheap in endurance. Dragonfang alone doesn't kill, considering that spamming a stun-style is utter bollocks, and the dmg is low.


Opinions please?

DF uses very low amount of endurance and does about same damage as DW lvl 50 style Dual Shadows(when I compared to yellow/orange con mobs in DF, but could be different in RvR, dunno). With 9s stun it's great imo, just not for mercs.

 

[aveh]

Originally posted by Aoln
Anyone noticed there was never any whine about this back when SBs had uber LA?

There's been whine about DF since the moment it made it into the patch notes ....

 

[jox]

!!!

Dragonfang will get nerfed, no question about it.

This is what is going to happen;

1. Dragonfang/infils will be nerfed.
2. People rerolls ns.
3. Mytix removes ap from ns and make ns worthless.
4. Everyone rerolls mincers and snipers.
5. Whops, ALL stealthers loose IP.
6. Assassins are ok again.
7. Whops, Mytix put range on buffs.
8. All stealthers suck ass.
9. everyone reroll non-stealthers.
10. All stealthers get a boost.
11. And... ops... Mytix have no customers left, they all went on to wow. The president of Mytix hangs himself in the shower. End.

I bet Mythic is laughing their asses of, while we jumps from one foot to another as nerf after nerf pops up.

 

[SilverHood]

worst part about DF is that they can use it 2, 3 or 4 times while you're stunned, becasue the last action they did was to evade

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by GrivneKelmorian
200 hitpoints - you mean the HP the shadowblade got more then other assasins. Wrong there, i think solid calucated it to 72hp more at L50.

That buffed or unbuffed? My inf with mota4 and red buffs has 1760hp. I know a few sb's whos hp goes over 2k. Slightly higher difference then 72? ;o

 

[bigchief]

Originally posted by SilverHood
worst part about DF is that they can use it 2, 3 or 4 times while you're stunned, becasue the last action they did was to evade

Theres actually more damaging styles that come off evade (evade chain in CS for ex) than spamming DF when theyre stunned Especially when you can do first 2 styles in the chain, then start again and do all 4. 6 low end hits > you