Did Jesus Die?

[nath]

Of course none of that disproves the existence of God, I don't think you can. Sure you can say the Bible is mostly fiction but I think more forward thinking Priests/Ministers (whatever you crazy cats are calling them nowadays) think of the Bible as more of an interesting text with a lot of wisdom than something to rule your life. Of course you still get hardnuts who consider it a rule book and everything in it must be obeyed to the letter (of course it all depends on how they interpret the text) and this tends to generate opposite hardliners who think it's all a crock of shit to the point of being kinda patronising and obnoxwijous.


I don't believe in God btw.

 

[TdC]

ah, but none of it proves the existence of god either. didn't we have a hugely intresting talk about the evil problem a few months ago? I seem to recall Dr Jo and Shovel having some very telling points. bit dazed and confused this morning though

 

[nath]

No, of course you're right. I don't think man will ever prove the existence of God. It's all down to faith really. Personally, I don't have it but I'd never suggest that because I don't believe there's an all powerful being that created us doesn't mean I'm right. If you want to have a truely scientific approach to religion you have to accept the possibility of both sides of the arguement when there is no proof in either direction.



I don't remember any discussion about evilness though, what was the jist? Personally, I don't believe in "Evil" but then I don't really believe in "Good" either, but that's all down to the fact that I don't believe in free will I guess.

 

[TdC]

well, Wij can explain it perfectly, but iirc the base argument in the "Problem of Evil" goes a little like this:

If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil, but because God by definition is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally 100% just he must have the wish to be rid of evil. The problem is that because God is all that, he would be driven to eliminate Evil, yet Evil exists ergo God doesn't exist.


back to the other thing. I personally don't believe in the concept of god as given to us by Christianity. However I do not rule out that there is a higher plane, or a greater good or sumsuch that we, as humanity, should try to work towards in order to gain enlightenment. sadly, in my more dark moments I fear that we aren't going to make it due to the fact that some humans are ***** and spoil it for the rest of us.

 

[nath]

Sure that works if you're thinking like a beurocrat but assuming God does exist and Evil does exist, who are we to say what he does and doesn't want.

 

[TdC]

well, there is the problem hehe. humans have to work with their definition of things. is the death of a kitten under the wheels of a drunk driver's car evil or bad luck? how about a wild kitten in a forest fire? or a child beaten to death in a war? a war in itself? God on the other hand, well, god has to exist because "faith" demands it I guess. just now I'm having a thought that one can't argue god unless you have enought faith to believe there is one. hmmm. you're making me ponder today Nath

 

[nath]

Ah, now I can't really get in to a discussion like that since I don't really believe in the nature of good/evil really anyway. It suggests that there's something more to us than chemical/electrical impulses in our brain or whatever. If a machine decided for whatever reason that it wanted to kill somebody (assuming it had the ability to think and the means to kill) would it be evil? Surely there would be a logical reason the machine had a desire to kill. I don't think you can have good and evil without having a soul, and I just don't believe in souls. I think ultimately, if you trace the steps back of someone like Hitler, and understood completely the way the brain (particularly his brain) worked then you'd be able to understand why he did what he did. That doesn't make it ok, but is it evil? Realistically could it have gone down any other way - was free will a factor?

Are we not just the product of our parents, our immediate surroundings and the society that we're brought up in. If you think of it like that, there's no room for good or evil. A question you could ask is where this impulse to do good for others comes from - personally I think that's just an instinct that has stuck with us since we're naturally social animals and it's in all of our best interest to keep the species going. Unfortunately nowadays that only tends to apply to your immediate friends and family - not people half way round the world, which the majority of us don't give a toss about.

 

[TdC]

I don't know. I have trouble projecting such abstract concepts onto myself. I like to think there is more to me than a lot of chemical reactions.
speaking of evil machines, iirc Azimov has some cool short stories about the very thing. evil depending on the perspective of the person involved, as the machine is not evil, and can't be. by our own argument it has no soul.

 

[nath]

I think it would be nice for there to more to us than chemical reactions and electrical impulses but I honestly don't. I think if you were able to observe the human race from a truely objective standpoint and could truely understand how we work, we'd become totally predictable. Of course there are outside factors that affect us - weather/lunar patterns etc. but ultimately we're as the frenchman says - slaves to causality. IMO.

 

[Turamber]

The pivotal point is 'free will'. God could have programmed everybody to do exactly what he wants, but then we would all be automatons. A basic definition of evil would be doing anything that God doesn't like -- and he allows that to happen for a time, but has said he won't put up with it for all time. If you have a Bible ponder Genesis chapter three -- whether or not you believe in a literal fruit and a serpent is not so important as the moral principles raised therein. There is a lot more to it than that obviously, but I just got in from the footie and don't have my thinking head on yet

 

[Cyfr]

I call on you god to create 40 days and 40 nights of rain to kill all of chavdom.

 

[Thugs]

Computers

Some of you are drawing similarities between us and computers. Sod the computers. We are living breathing beings with feelings. We basically all need the same things to exist and feel good. A lot are denied this and are brought up in environments that shape the mind in a poisonous way.

We are just human beings - another animal on the face of this earth. There is something ‘magical’ about us though I consider as opposed to any other creature if you ask me – and that is our ability for abstract thought.

Personally I hate my godamn brain at times and would welcome a less analytical mind where I wasn't always searching for something. But never-the-less out of our complex minds can appear marvelous works of art and incredible 'life changing' ideas - such as from the mind of Jesus.

But to say we are just a mass of electrical pulses is an absolute insult. That kind of comment should never be applied to any living breathing creature that can feel pain in my opinion.

 

[Bodhi]

The bird in the bikini on channel 5 right now is pretty magical. She can't throw tho. God fucked up :/

 

[Thugs]

And another thing!

We the only beings eh - animals etc that brew booze. Damn stuff is nothing but trouble but then again stops nonsense flying around the old brain box. Infact I trying to think of something interesting and kinda thought provoking but nothing seems to come to mind after drinking a fair amount of sherry. Saturday night so wot the hell. Can always be creative in the week.

Never drink and drive.

There you go that is good enough for sure.

Your turn now.

 

[Tom]

 

[Paradroid]

I think when you go to Heaven you meet God, who's a big lovable dog with a waggy tail who just wants to sniff your crotch for eternity. An infinte supply of sticks to throw and no shit to clean up!

Hell is struggling around Asda on a Saturday afternoon for the monthly shopping - maybe that's going to be my hell (oh no!), shopping in Asda for eternity buying stuff for heaven! ("Ok, what's next....one trillion tins of dog food!")

Our Galaxy could be the equivalent of an atom - in a colossal universe where we could be coursing through "Gods" veins. Or a smoke partical being blown from his mightly lungs - it would explain the universes accelerating expansion!


:kissit:

 

[Thugs]

Blimey

You far too sober m8. Calm down like me. Sod all functioning now and I in heaven kinda. Hey. Just hadda thought. Do they serve booze in heaven? Blast but is there a heaven? Arrrggh I sobering up!!!

*Grabs for bottle*

 

[Gray]

Maybe someone should invite Dot Cotton into this discussion?

 

[nath]

But to say we are just a mass of electrical pulses is an absolute insult.

It is a bit of an insult, but I still think that's all we are. I've yet to come across anything that suggests otherwise.

 

[Tom]

But to say we are just a mass of electrical pulses is an absolute insult. That kind of comment should never be applied to any living breathing creature that can feel pain in my opinion.

The basic function of pain is to stop whatever is being afflicted by pain from doing whatever its doing. That means living longer. Which basically means more babies. Which means the continuation of the species.

People invent 'the afterlife' and 'the soul' because they cannot conceive what it would be like not to exist after death. Try it. Imagine not living. Not thinking. Don't try to compare it with sleep, because waking up from sleep gives you a frame of reference to being unconcious. No, try and imagine not ever thinking of anything ever again.

We are just a mass of electrical impulses. Stop the electricity, and the body dies. Unless you have proof of anything else (like a soul), then the only thing being insulted is my intelligence.

 

[nath]

No, try and imagine not ever thinking of anything ever again.

If you can't, ask a chav - s/he should be able to tell you what it's like.

 

[Driwen]

People invent 'the afterlife' and 'the soul' because they cannot conceive what it would be like not to exist after death.

Well besides fearing death, it is good for a society if people are afraid of acting immoral/unjust, because in the afterlife they will be judged by their actions in their own life. If there is no afterlife than why not murder if it might make you live longer or no one will find out (note I am not saying that anyone should do that, but an afterlife adds an extra reason to act within the rules of society).

 

[Wij]

It's all a matter of interpretation. Calling us a big pile of electrical impulses is worded to provoke. It's true (roughly, the brain is a ferociously complex device that has many different ways of working, chemical and electro-chemical) but it deliberately misses out all the important points. Name any other pile of electrical impulses that could write Beethoven's Fifth, paint Dejourner sur l'herbe, marvel at a child's birth or put a bodykit on a Nova.

 

[Tom]

You can't name any yet because we're not sufficiently advanced as a race to invent something that can. Give it 50 years, and you won't be able to say that again.

Driwen, I don't agree with your point about the afterlife. What governs most of our actions IMO is evolutionary, a drive to secure the safety and continuation of our species. Murdering doesn't exactly do much to promote that, which is why its a relatively rare occurence. I've never yet heard of somebody who didn't commit an immoral act because of a fear of what might happen when they die.

 

[TdC]

It's all a matter of interpretation. Calling us a big pile of electrical impulses is worded to provoke. It's true (roughly, the brain is a ferociously complex device that has many different ways of working, chemical and electro-chemical) but it deliberately misses out all the important points. Name any other pile of electrical impulses that could write Beethoven's Fifth, paint Dejourner sur l'herbe, marvel at a child's birth or put a bodykit on a Nova.

so? an ape can use a twig as a tool. does that mean it has a soul too? imo a monkey with a twig is a great accomplishment for the monkey, perhaps just as great as #5 from Mr Beethoven from his perspective.

 

[Bodhi]

God spoke to me in a dream one night. He said..........




























UNGA BUNGA!

 

[GekuL]

lol

 

[Driwen]

Driwen, I don't agree with your point about the afterlife. What governs most of our actions IMO is evolutionary, a drive to secure the safety and continuation of our species. Murdering doesn't exactly do much to promote that, which is why its a relatively rare occurence. I've never yet heard of somebody who didn't commit an immoral act because of a fear of what might happen when they die.

no, but we live in a slightly different time than the dark ages or before that. Most of us know the afterlife is most likely not true, but back then it was something real and allthough no one back then might have made a decision hmm afterlife or direct result. It most likely did help enforce the morals back then.

 

[Wij]

You can't name any yet because we're not sufficiently advanced as a race to invent something that can. Give it 50 years, and you won't be able to say that again.

Perhaps so. In which case it will be an interesting companion and if it shows evidence of having feelings then they will be as real as mine. Nothing special aboout humans except that we are currently far more advanced in our 'electrical impulses' than everything else.

 

[Sar]

It is a bit of an insult, but I still think that's all we are. I've yet to come across anything that suggests otherwise.

I agree. It's a bit egotistic to say declare we're not, and animals are.

Either all living being are flesh machines, or they're eternal beings.

Which is more likely tbh?