Did Jesus Die?

[Turamber]

It's more likely to you that a human being was the product of a virgin birth, and that his father is God than the possibility that someone writing a story was a bit ahead of his time?

If you don't want to accept those things about Jesus then that's fine. *shrug* I'm not so arrogant that I think I understand everything in the Universe, but I do know that the people who wrote that women saw Jesus when he was first resurrected actually invited people to scoff at what they wrote. It's the sort of thing that has the hallmark of truth to it, and has nothing to do with them having a profound view of women -- they just wrote what happened, despite the negative affect it would have had on their proselytising at the time.

 

[Turamber]

[Constantine] wasn't even a Christian himself, and was only baptised on his death bed against his wishes, when he was too weak to object otherwise.

Agreed, he wasn't a Christian -- although many Catholics would froth at their mouth at this. But his biographers report he was baptised at his request. It's been common for rulers, particularly in Medieval times, to have death bed baptisms. If you are familiar with the story of Hamlet you will know that Hamlet doesn't kill his uncle as he is praying because, as the thought was at the time, killing him after he has just been absolved of sin would send him straight to heaven. Similar logic.

 

[nath]

Well, I'd never suggest that you're wrong for believing what you do, I was just saying that it seemed more likely that Jesus was not the son of God. However, unlikely things happen all the time so the fact that it's unlikely doesn't disprove anything. In that respect I'm kinda atheostic. I don't believe God exists, and don't believe it's possible to prove his existence but I've no problem with people believing. Some atheists can be as bad as hardline Christians frothatthemouth-wise.

 

[Bodhi]

Agreed, he wasn't a Christian -- although many Catholics would froth at their mouth at this. But his biographers report he was baptised at his request. It's been common for rulers, particularly in Medieval times, to have death bed baptisms. If you are familiar with the story of Hamlet you will know that Hamlet doesn't kill his uncle as he is praying because, as the thought was at the time, killing him after he has just been absolved of sin would send him straight to heaven. Similar logic.

The thing is if you're going to spead a lie to control the masses you had better remember yourself it's a lie, hence why he wasn't a Christian himself until the end. Because really that's all religion is, bollocks made up by people a long time ago to control the masses, to give people incapable of independent thought something to cling on to.

 

[old.user4556]

Sort of related to this thread,

I was brought up by parents who strongly disbelieved in god/jesus and subsequently neither did I. However, some very profound things have happened to me in the past few years and some people I know (a complete recovery from terminal cancer for instance) - my life felt very doomed (nothing was going right, was on course to be a failure), so I started to pray to *something* and some very bizarre things suddenly happened and my life totally turned around (won't go into details). I started to pray on a more frequent basis (feel kinda daft admitting this, but hey, it's my belief) as a result.

What gets to me is my dad says things like "well if god exists, why doesn't he stop all war, or why don't you pray for the winning lottery numbers". Such a flawed argument, but my flawed retort is "god doesn't work that way".

I wouldn't call myself a religious person, but i'm a firm believer of a god based on personal experience.

G

 

[Dillinja]

I pray sometimes when something really bad has happened to me or someone I know and I really feel bad. But it's more for self-comfort than any belief that anything out there can actually hear what I'm saying.

 

[nath]

If no one had ever suggested the idea of God then wouldn't you assume that you'd somehow done it yourself? Personally, I think that if it wasn't just a coincidence - it was probably all your doing. Whatever it was that got your life on track, you can't have been completely without control - it's your life, you were there so you must have had some influence. Of course, I'm not saying you can cure cancer by thought alone - but then maybe you can. Maybe we all can, as Dr Osborne says we haven't even begun to tap the vastness of human potential.

Anyhoo, my point really is that coincidences really don't prove the existence of God. However, you're entitled to your beliefs, and for all I know you could be completely right.


edit: above is in response to Big G, not Dillinja :\

 

[old.user4556]

Sure thing Nath, it could have been chance or coincidence.

A part of it may have been my own doing, but i believe there was more to it than just "destiny" (as i say, don't wanna go into details) or that it happened by chance.

It's quite a difficult subject really, this whole god/religion thing.

G

 

[dysfunction]

I dont doubt for a fact that Jesus lived and preached his beliefs and he may well have been the Son of God. I just found the entire documentary very thought provoking which I guess was their objective really.

Another interesting thing that was stated in the documentary was that the texts in Buddhism, around the time they said Jesus was supposed to be in the Kashmir area, also talk of Jus Asaf walking on water and doing other very similar things that Jesus apparantly did.

I think I have a similar in "belief" as nath. But I'm not sure if God does or doesnt exist. Ive never managed to make up my mind on that one yet.

And yes wars and all that just use Religion as an excuse. If religion didnt exist people would still be just as idiotic...

 

[Panda On Smack]

If you study the bible with someone who has a decent understanding of it you will find the answers to your questions.

Everyone has their own beliefs. We all have free will, its down to man to do what he wants. We all have a built in sense of right and wrong whicih sadly is warped in a lot of people. if you read the bible you will see that god was challenged by satan who said man doesnt need god so god stood back and said ok lets see if man can rule himself and clearly they can't. Thats why the world is in the state that it is, God will intervene soon though.

Most people mock the concept of God, bit too much for them to believe in. Its just about taking that extra step and having faith really.

Look around you, the amazing world we live in, its incredible. It all needed a creator, someone far superior than any man.

 

[nath]

We all have free will

I disagree (but I guess that's another thread entirely.

We all have a built in sense of right and wrong whicih sadly is warped in a lot of people.

Not convinced about that either - is it really built in, or programmed in?

Look around you, the amazing world we live in, its incredible. It all needed a creator, someone far superior than any man.

That's the sort of explanation I really dislike though. So the world/universe is a big amazing stunning place - I see no reason why that implies it was created by a sentient being. I've no idea why the universe started, or how (though there are theories) but to suggest that it's so awe inspiring that it must be created by god seems a little silly. I'm sure way back when, people thought rain was created by God or classed as some sort of mystical event - the more we know about the way things work the less room there is to say "wow, it's amazing and I've no idea how it works so it must be God".

I've had a Jehovas Witness tell me in IRC (IRC fgs, they're bloody everywhere!) that the theory of evolution was simply rediculous, how could I believe that we had evolved from apes. Instead it was far more likely that God created us all in 7 days and put in things like dinosaur remains etc. to test our faith.

That said, Science hasn't (and I'm sure never will) disprove the existence of God. Infact, in A Brief History of Time (yes iv red it, I'm ded smart me) Hawking talks about a number of scientific anomolies/weirdities is the only way I can put it that he said could indeed be God's influence if you chose to look at it that way.

Anyhoo, I've run out of things to say and there's leftover chinese food downstairs

 

[old.user4556]

Ahhh chinese food, now only God could have come up with food so tasty*

















* or perhaps Chinese people

 

[nath]

That's the most convincing evidence I've heard yet!

 

[Frizz]

Could "weird events" be translated by Quantum Physics? As soon as we get a hold of this sort if thing (Quantum computers even. (IMAGINE LEIK DMOO 3 @ LIEK 5000 FPS KEKEKE), anything will be within the realms of explanation.

Like the probability of me leaning against a solid wall, and given a long enough time scale i'd eventually slip through it. Because normal physics say that sort of thing is impossible. Even over the course of infinity.

I like the idea of Dinosaur bones, which test our faith though. These religious zealots will come out with the funniest of things sometimes.

PS: Indian pwns Chinese

 

[nath]

PS: Indian pwns Chinese

BLASPHEMER!! YOU MUST DIE.

etc.

 

[throdgrain]

Now thats a thread on its own. Indian v. Chinese.
Id have to vote for both

 

[old.user4556]

Heaven is permanent hunger with endless chinese/indian food.

 

[Tom]

You can take your chinese/indian food, and shove it RIGHT UP THE ARSE of a nice fillet steak.

 

[throdgrain]

Fillet steak is the WORST steak, I like it with a bit of fat

 

[Panda On Smack]

Im not tryng to force my opinion on anyone else. its just my view/belief. As far as im concerned though i know im right and im happy with that

Whats wrong with Jehovah's Witnesses?

Happy peaceful people, the world would be a better place if there were more people like that.

 

[Tom]

Wimp. Sirloin is for gays, and bikers.

 

[nath]

Happy peaceful people, the world would be a better place if there were more people like that.

Aside from the fact that all the ones I've known (which I guess in no way proves anything about them) try to ram their beliefs down your throat as if theirs is the only one that matters/is correct.




Bit like xane really.

 

[TdC]

It's been common for rulers, particularly in Medieval times, to have death bed baptisms.

yes, it's called keeping your options open in case the bad place really exists.

it's also known as "priests scaring the heck out of people in order to "save" their souls (and having them sign their lands over to the church if at all possible)"


ooh! nested quotes!!

 

[dysfunction]

I think the bible creates more questions than it answers tbh...

And I'm not entirely convinced that the bible should be taken as its read either. I think there is a lot in there that could well be metaphoric in nature amongst other things

Telling people they just have to have faith is not good enough for me....Ive never had it and I doubt I ever will. I have a very scientific and practical view to life. I can't just accept things because someone says its true. I have no doubt that the likelyhood that things in the bible are wrong or embelished is quite high as well as things being true. I cant accept a statement that says: "Its true cos its in the bible"

What did God do before he created the Universe? How did God come about?
What if the earth is destroyed by a a huge metorite tomorrow...Jesus has not come back as he promised he would so that would make him a liar and therefore not the son of God.

 

[Turamber]

What did God do before he created the Universe? How did God come about?
What if the earth is destroyed by a a huge metorite tomorrow...Jesus has not come back as he promised he would so that would make him a liar and therefore not the son of God.

We don't know, he didn't say

The Bible says that God never had a beginning, and does not have an end.

If the world does end before Jesus' comes back be sure to write him a letter of complaint.

More seriously, though, you are correct that not all of the Bible is easily understood and a lot of it is in metaphor, or has meaning which can only really be understood after much study. I've read it a couple of times but wouldn't consider that I know it all or understand it all ... but, tbh, if people are going to criticise it and say that it's all 'made up' they should study it for themselves and make their own decisions rather than just dismissing it because of some half baked theory they saw on TV or their friend told them.

I had heard a lot of bad press about the Koran but I enjoyed reading that too. It didn't convert me to being a Muslim but it opened my mind to their culture and history.

 

[Wij]

The Bible says that God never had a beginning, and does not have an end.

That hardly explains anything though. Isn't it easier to assume that the universe has that property and leave it at that, or accept that nothing does. Either way, the simplest explanation involves cutting this whole God stuff out.

 

[Turamber]

That hardly explains anything though. Isn't it easier to assume that the universe has that property and leave it at that, or accept that nothing does.

But, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it commonly accepted that the universe did have a beginning?

The Bible doesn't profess to be a text book of how everything works and why, but it is uncommonly accurate when it touches upon scientific matters. It gives answers to questions like 'why are we here?', 'why does God permit suffering?', 'what happens after death?' and such like. For the speed of light in metres per second or, more importantly, the question 'will Aston Villa ever win the Premiership?' one has to look to other places and sources.

 

[Wij]

No time to go into this now but you are wrong there I assure you

Another day

 

[Sar]

The big bang may not have been the beginning - merely a stage in the universe's evolution.

The Cause by Design argument is totally flawed, as is the First Cause argument - christians have yet to come up with a decent explanation for the Problem of Evil either, and until they do, then christianity is a pile of bollocks used to control and pacify the fearful masses throughout history.

 

[Wij]

The big bang may not have been the beginning - merely a stage in the universe's evolution.

The Cause by Design argument is totally flawed, as is the First Cause argument - christians have yet to come up with a decent explanation for the Problem of Evil either, and until they do, then christianity is a pile of bollocks used to control and pacify the fearful masses throughout history.

I was perhaps going to phrase it nicer but well done Sar