Denmarks 'Drug Rooms'

[Chilly]

Fair enough, ta for the answers to potentially unpleasant questions.

 

[Olgaline]

Throd, Although I might not agree with everything your saying, it's very educational to hear from someone who's actually been through it.
I still think your wrong about the fact that a program like this would increase the number of adicts or be a means of experimentation
for newcomers that otherwise would not have access. However, I do understand the concern, but, I believe it all comes down to how it's implimented and regulated.

I'd argue that these programs help those who "would have done it anyway" they do however ease the transaction for those that would seek to get out of the enviroment, and hopefully off drugs as well. often, as I'm guessing you might well know, the actions you might be forced to take to get your next fix, might lead you down a path where you create and increase the need for drugs to cope aka "The Negative Spiral" these programs very much aim to take that out of the equation.

In Denmark, they are regulated, professionally-run, sterile environments where users can inject or smoke drugs in safety and under medical supervision. They leave once they've got their fix, often to access other services in the area such as health clinics or homeless shelters. Research generally suggests they lead to reduced drug use, increased health care and a fall in public disorder in areas where they have been set up. They have also been linked to a drop in deaths from overdoses. Drug consumption rooms are usually local responses to very local problems, so they work best when police, health agencies and city authorities collaborate together.

But tbh - WTF do we know, the worst I've had to deal with is quiting ciggerets cold turkey . And god knows, that was more than hard enough for me.

 

[throdgrain]

Aye, look I'm not saying I know everything, just saying I've been there. These drug rooms are ONLY there to provide a clean environment for junkies to fix up. That's all.

On consideration, it would have saved the life of that lad I was on about earlier. But only till the next time. It doesn't supply gear or anything, junkies still got to go out and nick stuff to pay for it, or go on prescription, which isn't cheap. Both these things are bad. There is no answer, only no smack.

 

[Olgaline]

I see your point, but I guess that's where the difference kicks in since in Denmark, all prescriptions are partially state sponsored "the more/the longer you need it the cheaper it gets"
alas recently they have been regulated to run on a yearly timer, so to speak. Do you think though, if prescriptions drugs were cheaper that the two things could work in symbiose to help
some, if even a few addicts out of and away from drugs ?

 

[throdgrain]

Not if they can sell a portion of their prescription for reasonably big money! If the prescription is cheaper in the first place, that just makes it easier for the junkie. Most of these policies are, in my opinion, just appeasement really. If you get someone on a "program" it must be short, have a fixed end, and not be massively open to abuse as the systems are now

I used to sell speed to them guys, after I'd given up H, and they had the money to buy it, as it mixed with the skag to make speedballs. They loved it. Where did that money come from?

 

[Olgaline]

Hypothetically then, lets say they had to show up to a "drug room" to get their prescription, and they had to take it on location ?

 

[rynnor]

Hypothetically then, lets say they had to show up to a "drug room" to get their prescription, and they had to take it on location ?

Unless it was administered by the staff (which would be unethical) you would have a tough time stopping users smuggling drugs off of the premises for resale.

 

[DaGaffer]

Unless it was administered by the staff (which would be unethical) you would have a tough time stopping users smuggling drugs off of the premises for resale.

Robot arm clamps them to the table, Total Recall style. Tough love, its the only way.

 

[Scouse]

Think about it, what's easier for a newcomer, sipping two teaspoons of cough mixture-like syrup, or jabbing a big needle in their arm? I'm going to assume you agree it's the former. Then you do that a few times, and you're getting the hit ok, but the junkie who's selling you the methadone is saying yeah, linctus is great, but it takes an hour or two to come up dont it? If you fix you're stoned in seconds. And the rush! Mate you've never had anything like it ...

And so a user is born.

Don't disagree with that. However, we're talking about methadone programs that are aimed at getting users off drugs.

People who do those programs don't start using there. They're already using - and the people there aren't going to be pushing them to upgrade their experience - the exact opposite.

If you're a newcomer you're with a pusher. If you're trying to get off then you're probably on the program - not trying to ask for advice off the person who's livelihood depends on you continuing to buy off him...

 

[Scouse]

Unless it was administered by the staff (which would be unethical)

Don't see why it'd be unethical as the end result is a reduction in harm. Yes, administering drugs to a user ain't great - but it's better than the alternative.

You turn up at a designated clinic. You have the drug administered. Job jobbed.



Edit: @throdgrain - what do users need in terms of help? I mean, people deride the programs but what sort of help would actually be effective?

 

[rynnor]

Don't see why it'd be unethical as the end result is a reduction in harm. Yes, administering drugs to a user ain't great - but it's better than the alternative.

You turn up at a designated clinic. You have the drug administered. Job jobbed.

It would break the principle of 'do no harm'. Imagine how bad a medic would feel if he administered a dose that killed the user because they had already taken something else?

 

[Chilly]

Put it on the end of a butch nurse' cock and have him assrape all the junkies high. Seems l

Edit: @throdgrain - what do users need in terms of help? I mean, people deride the programs but what sort of help would actually be effective?

Jail for six months with no access to skag!

 

[Scouse]

It would break the principle of 'do no harm'. Imagine how bad a medic would feel if he administered a dose that killed the user because they had already taken something else?

You can also do harm through inaction. Surely the principle is assessed through a balanced assessment of the facts.

You're providing a drug user drugs which he's definitely going to take. Ensuring that the user has somewhere safe to take them, that it's a clean environment, that they're taken correctly and in a safe manner is part of that.

I think performing the injection yourself rather than exposing that user and others to other harms (from going outside, reselling, poorly performed self-administration etc. etc. etc.) fulfills the "do no harm" criteria.

It's hypocritical to only perform half the service IMO. Provide the drugs and not take the proper care that they're going exactly where they need to? Irresponsible behaviour...

 

[DaGaffer]

Don't disagree with that. However, we're talking about methadone programs that are aimed at getting users off drugs.

People who do those programs don't start using there. They're already using - and the people there aren't going to be pushing them to upgrade their experience - the exact opposite.

If you're a newcomer you're with a pusher. If you're trying to get off then you're probably on the program - not trying to ask for advice off the person who's livelihood depends on you continuing to buy off him...

Where do you think the methadone used by dealers to get people on drugs comes from? The heroin users sell or otherwise trade-in their methadone to their dealers, or deal it themselves direct to get more money for heroin. Methadone programs are well-intentioned but all they did in reality was create a new market and an income stream for junkies. A big reason why the failure rate for methadone programs is so high is the people it was intended for aren't actually using it!

 

[Chilly]

Put it on the end of a butch nurse' cock and have him assrape all the junkies high. Seems l

Jail for six months with no access to skag!

What the fuck?? I'm sure I deleted the first bit of that post. Fucking draft post shit.

 

[Scouse]

Where do you think the methadone used by dealers to get people on drugs comes from? The heroin users sell or otherwise trade-in their methadone to their dealers, or deal it themselves direct to get more money for heroin. Methadone programs are well-intentioned but all they did in reality was create a new market and an income stream for junkies. A big reason why the failure rate for methadone programs is so high is the people it was intended for aren't actually using it!

I refer you to my point a couple of posts up about administering the doses (of whatever) in these programs being clearly the ethical method of distribution for exactly this sort of reason.

 

[DaGaffer]

I refer you to my point a couple of posts up about administering the doses (of whatever) in these programs being clearly the ethical method of distribution for exactly this sort of reason.

Breach of their human rights innit?

 

[Scouse]

Breach of their human rights innit?

Don't see how volunteering for free drugs to be administered safely by professionals would breach their human rights. Seems to me like an eminently sensible way to provide badly needed assistance.

 

[throdgrain]

Don't disagree with that. However, we're talking about methadone programs that are aimed at getting users off drugs./

People who do those programs don't start using there. They're already using - and the people there aren't going to be pushing them to upgrade their experience - the exact opposite.

If you're a newcomer you're with a pusher. If you're trying to get off then you're probably on the program - not trying to ask for advice off the person who's livelihood depends on you continuing to buy off him...

Have you read nothing I've written

 

[DaGaffer]

Don't see how volunteering for free drugs to be administered safely by professionals would breach their human rights. Seems to me like an eminently sensible way to provide badly needed assistance.

Fucking hell Scouse you're being obtuse about this.

 

[Scouse]

Have you read nothing I've written

Of course I have. Yep, I can see junkies selling their methodone for skag, I can see pushers using gateway-drug access routes to push heroin onto naive people. I said I didn't disagree with that.

My argument was that if you're already a user, going to a program isn't going to encourage you to take drugs as you are already taking them? And if they were administered rather than handed-out then they can't be resold.

If I'm missing something with the above, please be kindly to be explaining what it is

 

[Scouse]

Fucking hell Scouse you're being obtuse about this.

Seriously?

Maybe I'm just missing something - seems pretty sensible to me

 

[DaGaffer]

Seriously?

Maybe I'm just missing something - seems pretty sensible to me

Just the small fact that most heroin users actually don't give a fuck about getting off heroin but they do like the idea of "being in a program" because it a. gets their probation officer/mum/significant other off their back and b. helps subsidise their habit for a bit. You're being obtuse because you keep on trying to see the best in people; not a gift I'm blessed with.

 

[throdgrain]

Of course I have. Yep, I can see junkies selling their methodone for skag, I can see pushers using gateway-drug access routes to push heroin onto naive people. I said I didn't disagree with that.

My argument was that if you're already a user, going to a program isn't going to encourage you to take drugs as you are already taking them? And if they were administered rather than handed-out then they can't be resold.

If I'm missing something with the above, please be kindly to be explaining what it is

DaGaffer is more or less right, they don't want to give up, the vast majority of them. Most of the "programs" don't get people off smack, they just make it easier, and probably slightly lower the local crime rate, initially. The only problem is, as I've said, selling the methadone linctus starts off new users. Don't forget most registered users get fixable methadone as well as linctus. If the programs were really about getting people off gear, my mate wouldn't have been on it now for 20 years

 

[Chilly]

Your body and mind must be so used to it after that long that getting off it would be effectively impossible by any act of self will.

 

[Scouse]

You're being obtuse because you keep on trying to see the best in people; not a gift I'm blessed with.

I therefore disagree that I'm being obtuse. I'm not "trying to see the best in people". Some of them will never come off it and will never want to - and, as I've already stated, I agree with the state in that it is right that they get support for the rest of their lives regardless. Period.

What I'm interested in now (and have been for a few posts) is what is the best way to treat people. I don't give a monkeys if some of them will never be off it - throdlar is proof that some will. How do you help them?

I'm surprised at throddy tbfh. Your attitude seems defeatist m8. Yep - some will never want to be - but you're living proof that some can kick it. What's the best way to help people who are now like you were?

 

[throdgrain]

I am defeatist mate, them people are fucked to be honest, the vast majority of them. And just about any help you offer them will be misused. Sad but true I came off it because I was really ill for 4 or 5 months, yellow if you must know, and couldn't do any. The day I was pronounced cured I went straight out and scored.

The way it happened, I don't want to explain it really, but I knew then it wasn't something I wanted any more, so I walked away.

 

[Scouse]

I am defeatist mate, them people are fucked to be honest, the vast majority of them

I believe you.

The right thing to do is to offer what help you can tho. It's not like we can just throw 'em on the scrapheap, and if we did start advocating that as a society then I'd hope that evolution would throw us there too.

 

[throdgrain]

I doubt there's any hope for a lot of them. They will just sit on the edge of society, poncing off the rest of us. Just like some people do who aren't drug addicts.

I only responded to this thread because of some of the staggering inaccuracies people were chucking out disguised as "facts" I don't have an answer, and that's the truth.

 

[CorNokZ]

Lowest drug related death count in 19 years here in Denmark. Drug rooms are a great success.