News Death by Speed Camera

[Scouse]

If you went against the law, regardless of whether it was morally correct or not, then it was that decision that led to your fate. If you don't agree with the law, there are appropriate avenues to protest it. If you break those laws though, while they are actively enforced, then you are submitting yourself to the consequences of your doing so.

I disagree with your basic argument here.


1) His decision alone did not lead to his fate. The speed camera was the ultimate causal factor - in the very circumstance that many had predicted and complained about when speed cameras were introduced. Hence the death by speed camera thread.

2) I disagree with your premise that he should protest the law through an "appropriate" avenue.. People breaking the law is an appropriate avenue of protest - many laws get repealed because they are stupid laws. Laws that everyone breaks.

You need to stop seeing the law and the enforcement of it in black and white. It's a social reforming tool and part of the process is the population pushing back against it. It's natural and normal - hence why speeding is generally tolerated and incredibly low amounts of police effort goes into curbing it (speed cameras? cheap as chips - and they fund themselves).

3) "Breaking the law" has nothing to do with this accident. The law is an idea, written down on a piece of paper.

However, you're using the "but it's t3h laWww!" excuse to both justify your harsh position on the unfortunate death of a motorcyclist due to the combination of a number of factors and to stop yourself having to think hard about complex social problems - 'cause it's easier to see the world in black and white.

 

[Calaen]

Sad loss of a life but I've got no sympathy at all.

If the van wasn't there he may well have still been alive, but are we to ban all police from the roads as well just so people don't press their brakes when the see them?? What if he saw a cop car joining the carriage way. the outcome may well have been the same.

If you can't slow down the vehicle you are driving on a straight road without crashing it, well you are gonna have problems, I notice they said experienced driver, unfortunately experienced does not mean good or sensible.

 

[Corran]

Common on brand new bikes in the last year or so. But still some people don't like it so they have with out too. But if he did lock the brakes, ABS would have saved his life it does work well.

Do you know if he locked the front or the back? Seems a low speed to die at, I'm guessing he locked the front, went over the handle bars and got run over? Or he locked the rear into a slide and let go of the rear brake, aka a high side slide. they can be downright nasty but you get thrown up in the air before you hit the floor at speed.

Either way he had no business on that bike, it's a heavy racing bike and quite an animal. I've had a go on the same bike on a track and slide the back out a little, scared me for sure.

He's got 170mph racing bike and hes braking like a noob at 70mph in a straight line, death trap.

He was an experienced rider apparently.
And what killed him was he dismembered an arm, and cracked his skull on the safety barrier

 

[Kryten]

I disagree with your basic argument here.


1) His decision alone did not lead to his fate. The speed camera was the ultimate causal factor - in the very circumstance that many had predicted and complained about when speed cameras were introduced. Hence the death by speed camera thread.

You could apply the above argument to anything that catches anyone's eye for any reason possible.

"He was killed, because he noticed the car travelling in the opposite direction had a body sticking out the boot"
Family sues Ford for not making a corpse friendly boot.

"He was killed because he noticed the bra advert on the billboard was rather revealing/alluring."
Family sues Wonderbra.

It's all too American. He shouldn't have been speeding in the first place, so the "ooh shit, speed camera" thing should never be a problem. If you really must do it (who doesn't when it's vaguely safe?) then at least only do it on roads you know. There's too many roads round here on national speed limit with bends you can only take in 2nd gears in cars. Don't wanna be doing 60 round them!

 

[Sydrik]

There's too many roads round here on national speed limit with bends you can only take in 2nd gears in cars. Don't wanna be doing 60 round them!

Sounds like Norfolk tbpfh!!

 

[Shagrat]

Cant believe some people are blaming the camera? Im no fan of them, but the only reason this guy crashed was becuase he was going too fast, panicked when he saw a camera, and obviously didnt know his bike.

If the van wasnt there, he could have lost control there anyway , or further up the road, (rabbit running into the road maybe), and could have wiped not only himself but some other poor bastard out as well.

 

[rynnor]

Do you know if he locked the front or the back? Seems a low speed to die at, I'm guessing he locked the front, went over the handle bars and got run over? Or he locked the rear into a slide and let go of the rear brake, aka a high side slide. they can be downright nasty but you get thrown up in the air before you hit the floor at speed.

He was doing an estimated minimum of 78mph - eyewitness said he saw the bike 'wobble' then hit a cone - the bloke was thrown off the bike and crashed into a concrete barrier upright and the bike ran on another 100 yards.

 

[ECA]

This is the other side of speed cameras though, you see people braking when they see them all the fucking time.

There was an article in the telegraph about it:

Speed cameras fail to cut accidents
Speed cameras have failed to cut accidents on many roads and have actually led to a rise in casualties on some routes, official figures show today.

Speed cameras fail to cut accidents - Telegraph

Yes it's the guys fault, but it's the human part of the system that means this will never ever ever not happen.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

He was doing an estimated minimum of 78mph - eyewitness said he saw the bike 'wobble' then hit a cone - the bloke was thrown off the bike and crashed into a concrete barrier upright and the bike ran on another 100 yards.

Was most likely a high side into a barrier then, ouch

aka this

Highside Motorcycle Crash on Mulholland - YouTube

You brake too much on the rear and the rear wheel looses traction and kicks out. If you let ago the rear wheel will gain traction and you're gone. But experienced rider on a straight? more like he was a noob with a too big of bike, hit the rear hard in panic and then let go.

The bike in video is same but not only a 750 not a 1000

 

[Scouse]

Yep. The clincher is: "you see people breaking when they see them all the fucking time".


We've known for years that people react like this to speed cameras. We know, and tolerate, driving faster than the speed limits in this country. That's why when you're caught speeding you get administrative punishment: a mark on a piece of paper and a small fine.


You can wish that all humans would obey the speed limit - or you can accept reality - people always will - because it's not always unsafe and it's frustrating to sit at a pedestrian 70 on empty motorways.

People who sit on the harder side of the law-abiding spectrum are too eager to deal out judgement based on how they wish the world worked rather than how it actually works...

 

[Ch3tan]

Hold on scouse, if he panicked and braked for the camera, he was just as likely to panic and brake for something else. The camera may have been the catalyst, but his lack of judgement was the cause.

 

[GimmlyThe3rd]

Motorcycle Lowsides in Front of CHP on Mulholland - YouTube

bit like that I bet, shit I can watch the high rez Mulholland bike vids all day. It's like porn, I have to go there one day

 

[Edmond]

Russ and i came past this on the day about 10 mins after it happened, di-fib by his side and a blue blanket over his face, 3 kids in the car freaking out wanting know if he was dead or not. It was a glorious sunny, dry day and we were going to the beech

I'm not passing judgement, i took my CBT last October, passed, but hated every second of it and have not been on a bike since

He was speeding, as we all do, dont say you dont cos you do, and we have all suddenly braked at the sight of the camera

Yes it was his fault, he lost control, it was unfortunate. As others have said, i feel sorry for the people he left behind

Only tonight a big bike came past me dioing well over 80 on the dual carrigeway, undertaking and overtaking as he went up the road.....Twat

 

[Syri]

Yep. The clincher is: "you see people breaking when they see them all the fucking time".


We've known for years that people react like this to speed cameras. We know, and tolerate, driving faster than the speed limits in this country. That's why when you're caught speeding you get administrative punishment: a mark on a piece of paper and a small fine.


You can wish that all humans would obey the speed limit - or you can accept reality - people always will - because it's not always unsafe and it's frustrating to sit at a pedestrian 70 on empty motorways.

People who sit on the harder side of the law-abiding spectrum are too eager to deal out judgement based on how they wish the world worked rather than how it actually works...

It seems to me that you're just reading what you want to here. I said that he was at fault, not because of the speed camera, but because he was doing something that would cause him to need to slow down, should a speed camera be there. It just so happened on that one occasion that one was there. Any time you break the speed limit, you run that risk of being caught out. He was, just that other circumstances made it harsher on him than a slap on the wrist.
He broke the speed limit. He slammed the brakes on when he realised he was going to be caught. He lost control. His fault. All there is to it.
If we just give up on laws because "people break them anyway" how about if we just got rid of laws? How about if someone just comes and takes your TV, or your computer, but nobody does anything, because it's OK, someone would do it anyway, so why bother stopping them?
If you want to rebel against the law, that's fine, go ahead. Doing it in a way that risks your own, or worse others, lives is just not on though. This guy risked his own life, and lost it. I'm sorry for those he left behind, and also thankful that nobody else was involved in the incident. He may have been a great bloke, but he made a mistake, a bad judgement, and ultimately paid a harsh price for it. To try and push that blame onto the camera, for enforcing the rules decided on that road, is just wrong in my mind though.

 

[Tom]

He broke the speed limit. He slammed the brakes on when he realised he was going to be caught. He lost control. His fault. All there is to it.

The stated aim of that speed camera van was to help make the roads safer. In this instance, it did not. It was a contributory factor in a road death.

Why are you ignoring that fact?

 

[Raven]

What's the speed limit here?

google streetview

See if you get it right.

It really doesn't matter though does it? The people who come up with speed limits actually do it for a living. They don't just turn up at work and say to the bloke on the opposite desk "I know lololol lets make this stretch of road a 50 lololol" they do it for a reason. If you think the speed it inappropriate then write to the highwaya agency, or your MP. Only a retard would break the speed limit, especially by 28 MPH.

If the sign says a speed, do that speed. It's not hard.

 

[Raven]

The stated aim of that speed camera van was to help make the roads safer. In this instance, it did not. It was a contributory factor in a road death.

Why are you ignoring that fact?

Only because some fuckknuckle tried to avoid a ticket. If he had been a responsible road user then he wouldn't have needed to slam his breaks on but would have been travelling at the speed limit.

His own fault he died. End of. This blame culture is getting rather tiresome.

 

[Tom]

It really doesn't matter though does it? The people who come up with speed limits actually do it for a living. They don't just turn up at work and say to the bloke on the opposite desk "I know lololol lets make this stretch of road a 50 lololol" they do it for a reason. If you think the speed it inappropriate then write to the highwaya agency, or your MP. Only a retard would break the speed limit, especially by 28 MPH.

If the sign says a speed, do that speed. It's not hard.

Since the forum software won't allow me to ignore you, I might as well correct you in case someone actually believes what you've just written.

Speed limits used to be set at or below the 85th percentile (the speed at which 85% of traffic drove), but lately, in this country, they're set by measuring the average speed of traffic. That means that many speed limits, lately, are set so as to instantly criminalise about half the people using that road. It makes no sense.

As for "Only a retard would break the speed limit, especially by 28 MPH", I and most other road users break the speed limit every single time they drive, and breaking it by 28mph is utterly meaningless in most contexts. That statement implies that you don't really understand the first thing about safe driving.

 

[Tom]

His own fault he died. End of. This blame culture is getting rather tiresome.

How ironic.

 

[Raven]

Since the forum software won't allow me to ignore you, I might as well correct you in case someone actually believes what you've just written.

Speed limits used to be set at or below the 85th percentile (the speed at which 85% of traffic drove), but lately, in this country, they're set by measuring the average speed of traffic. That means that many speed limits, lately, are set so as to instantly criminalise about half the people using that road. It makes no sense.

As for "Only a retard would break the speed limit, especially by 28 MPH", I and most other road users break the speed limit every single time they drive, and breaking it by 28mph is utterly meaningless in most contexts. That statement implies that you don't really understand the first thing about safe driving.

Right...so speeding is absolutely fine then? I don't know about you but where I drive the speed limits are generally ok. You know, 30 in a built up area, 40 in built up ish, 60 in duel carriage way with lots lanes joining etc. I prefer to think that the limits are put there by people who actually know what they are doing rather than people who think their driving ability is better than everyone elses.

And yes, I think breaking the speed limit by 28 MPH is dangerous...do you think that it is ok? Do you have some sort of magical power that makes your car stop by a shorter distance when travelling at higher speeds? Do you have faster than human reflexes? fascinating.

 

[DaGaffer]

Right...so speeding is absolutely fine then? I don't know about you but where I drive the speed limits are generally ok. You know, 30 in a built up area, 40 in built up ish, 60 in duel carriage way with lots lanes joining etc. I prefer to think that the limits are put there by people who actually know what they are doing rather than people who think their driving ability is better than everyone elses.

And yes, I think breaking the speed limit by 28 MPH is dangerous...do you think that it is ok? Do you have some sort of magical power that makes your car stop by a shorter distance when travelling at higher speeds? Do you have faster than human reflexes? fascinating.

So 28 mph is bad, but 18 not so bad? Look at the road on Google maps; its exactly the kind of road you've described as a 60MPH road "dual carriageway with lots lanes joining etc." and if you were driving along it you'd expect it to be a national dual carriageway speed. There is a 50MPH sign, at the start of the flyover just before the accident, but it looks to me like a speed limit for the flyover itself rather than the general speed limit (I know its not, because they haven't put an end speed limit sign at the other end, but if you look at the flyover coming from the other direction, its the same, it looks like a speed limit just for the flyover).

Now, you can argue his speed was still too fast, and yes he was breaking the law, but the speed limits themselves are pretty arbitrary, and ironically, although there are two accident black spots on that stretch of road, neither are where the police were setting up the camera.

Fact is, we don't really know much from the report about conditions and the guy was unfortunate to come off just where there was a bloody great bridge, otherwise he'd have probably survived. I just think some people on here are being incredibly judgemental about a guy who strikes me as more unlucky than dangerous.

 

[Tom]

Right...so speeding is absolutely fine then? I don't know about you but where I drive the speed limits are generally ok. You know, 30 in a built up area, 40 in built up ish, 60 in duel carriage way with lots lanes joining etc. I prefer to think that the limits are put there by people who actually know what they are doing rather than people who think their driving ability is better than everyone elses.

Speeding is fine in some circumstances, but not so in others. Exceeding the speed limit is a causal factor in only a very small minority of road traffic accidents. Most accidents are caused by a driver's lack of observation.

A great many speed limits are decided by people who have little understanding of road safety, which is why councils and the police often disagree on such matters, the police knowing only too well that a limit set too low will be widely ignored.

And yes, I think breaking the speed limit by 28 MPH is dangerous...do you think that it is ok? Do you have some sort of magical power that makes your car stop by a shorter distance when travelling at higher speeds? Do you have faster than human reflexes? fascinating.

Really, so driving at 98mph on a straight clear section of motorway is dangerous? Driving at 68mph on a 40mph dual carriageway is dangerous, despite the fact that that road was originally designed to motorway specifications?

I don't possess any magical powers, what I do possess is the same ability that just about every other driver possesses - the ability to dynamically assess a given situation and decide automatically what speed it is safe to travel at. That might be 10mph through an area littered with hazards, or 100mph along a road with no hazards whatsoever.

You do whatever you like, but I've been driving regularly since 1994 (passed in 1989) and have accumulated precisely zero points on my licence. That despite owning a range of vehicles whose engines and top speeds many people would commonly consider obscene. I've also taken steps to improve the standard of my driving, because even though I felt I was a safe driver, I wanted to be safer. Have you done anything like that?

 

[soze]

His inability to control his vehicle at the speed he was riding caused his death. Trying to use this as a "speed cameras cause death" augment is not right. You can replace the camera van with a deer running across the road or a tyre blow out on a lorry he is overtaking. At the end of the day the guys skill killed him here the only thing that matters is no one else was hurt.

 

[Raven]

So 28 mph is bad, but 18 not so bad?

Erm...at what point did I say that?

 

[Raven]

Edit timer....

(I know its not, because they haven't put an end speed limit sign at the other end)

Bingo, so should he have done...if he was road worthy. He died because he was exceeding the speed limit so had to slam his breaks on to slow down. Same as if it was someone changing lane in front of him, or something running into the road, or any number of events (as mentioned previously) If he hadn't have been breaking the speed limit he would not have died. His fault, Nobody else's.

I don't know about anyone else but I tend to look out for changes in speed restrictions. While I don't necessarily agree with some of them (like I said, the people that set them know a tad more about it than most of us...) I don't think I am above the law so I stick to the speed limit, or in the case of motorway driving, I stick with the flow of traffic.

 

[Punishment]

Darwinism + GSXR = Inevitable outcome

 

[old.Tohtori]

And when Mr Bean crashed his maclaren...on a straight...where 99.9% of people would poke the beast with that peddlestick....people were saying "Oh thank googlies he's alright".

Just saying

If ya gonna crash, ya better be funny!

 

[Laddey]

Lots of people who are ready to denounce the guy as a "retard" or an "idiot" who "deserved it" - it being death for driving over the speed limit.

I mean, if he had kids he may have been a wonderful father, top boyfriend, alcoholic wanker. Who knows? But he deserves death for speeding here:



Ooooh. This dumb fucker definitely deserved to die for doing 78 on a dual carriageway.

You my friend, have won this thread.

 

[Gumbo]

What's the speed limit here?

google streetview

See if you get it right.

I'm guessing NSL as the 30mph sign isn't valid with the yellow border?

 

[soze]

What's the speed limit here?

google streetview

See if you get it right.

30mph but the sign is illegal, it does not change the speed limit as common sense tells you its a 30/40 zone with houses on the road.