Dale Farm

[Embattle]

UN woman getting a kicking on Newsnight.

 

[Zenith.UK]

Last line of the Daily Mash siad it perfectly...

"But some of them have been at Dale Farm at least 10 years. Forgive me for saying so, but they don't seem to be very good at travelling."

 

[Keitanz]

From other thread, pretty funny.

Shame that bloke is 100% right ..

 

[Tom]

From other thread, pretty funny.

Angry Frank - Harry Enfield and Paul Whitehouse - BBC comedy - YouTube

 

[Kahland]

From the reading I did, as far as I can tell only a couple of the houses are on land that has been bought, I don't think they own the whole site?

Might be wrong.

All of the dale farm area is owned by the residents, and they still own it. Also do they own the right to live there.

They only got evicted from their houses because they were built without planning permissions. This is a big loss to the british people and culture in my opinion. I travelled around England and Scotland for 3 months a some years back and visited Dale farm. I met some of the most wonderful people there and stayed there for 2 days (couchsourfing).

We have a similar issue in Denmark at the moment. With the risk on a very known place called Christiania in the heart of Copenhagen, getting demolished if certain laws are applied. This would also be a catastrophe.

Control is good, and upholding the law is good, to a certain chance. The only reason planning permissions are denied at Dale farm is because some old politicians that only care for tea, expensive wine, and hates minorities - keeps denying it in the fear of loosing face/rep/votes because of giving into a minority widely hated among capitalistic stuck up *******.......

/Steam off!

Mr Justice; Kenneth Parker

Evicts

 

[Raven]

erm. Not quite. They have never applied for planning permission until recently...I am not even sure if they have done that properly.

Planning rules exist for a reason. Otherwise anyone could build anything anywhere, regardless of it affect on other people or the local environment.

 

[Aoami]

gypo camps and christiania are very different things

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Child abandoner finds pikey scum as good people. We know who to believe.

 

[Kahland]

Child abandoner finds pikey scum as good people. We know who to believe.

Yes i bet chavs like you are people of higher quality. Everyone is equal, just not according to your narrow view Go pedospotting on the train please.

 

[Kahland]

gypo camps and christiania are very different things

No, it's not Besides how can it be a gypo camp when you own the plot?

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Yes i bet chavs like you are people of higher quality. Everyone is equal, just not according to your narrow view Go pedospotting on the train please.

You have no idea who I am. You also fail to understand the difference between things that happen to me, and things that happen to people I know.

But do try again, since that was such an epic fail.

 

[Scouse]

Now i've not verified that but if its the case it seems a bit much. While people should respect planning laws etc etc here we have some people that own land legally and have built homes - if they weren't travellers would it have gotton this bad?

Ah the calm voice of reason.

I wonder how many lives could have been saved if the council had decided to spend that estimated Twenty Million Pounds of their scarce financial resources in another area.

I don't know. Say you've got 20 million quid left in your limited and overstretched budget. You could spend it on one of these:

• Additional nursing staff at the local hospital for a number of years
• New hospital equipment to cut waiting times (that you can make money off other councils by letting them use it)
• More ignorant, illiterate police to fill garage forecourts and chase photographers
• Make an additional anti-cancer drug available through the NHS
• (insert life-saving or security enhancing idea of your own here)

Nah. Saving lives or increasing security is frankly idiotic.

We should definitely spend that precious limited resource on making people homeless. We should make sure we're rigourously enforcing planning legislation on half of a shithole plot of land that's legally owned by people we hate.

They'll have to move somewhere else to be persecuted all over again, at the taxpayers expense, ad infinitum.


I put it to you Pez - rather than putting our finite resources to the use of saving lives we should chase 80 families around the country to ensure that they and their children have a hard and deprived life.


Fuck 'em. Persecution is the English way...

 

[Scouse]

gypo camps and christiania are very different things

Look like very similar things from the wiki entry. Why do you say they are different in an argument with someone who's obviously got direct experience of them and asserts otherwise?

Have you visited dale farm and been to Christiania? If you have I'll give more weight to your words as opposed to someone who hasn't...

 

[old.Tohtori]

So is the jist of the issue;

- Big traveller(gypsies?) camp on someones owned land(the residents don't own the land).
- Big move to clear everyone out of said land.
- Big trouble, violent encounters etc.

About or so?

As a dirty foreigner, i have little if any knowledge of this so would like some info before giving opinion.

 

[Gumbo]

Not quite Toht. the travellers do own the land, they just don't have the right to build on it. Same as I could buy myself a nice acre of agricultural land for £7k or so, but without permission I couldn't build a house and live on it.

The problem is, the Pikey Cunts don't think that the laws of the land apply to them so they went ahead and built on it anyway.

 

[Genedril]

They had the right (and planning permission) to build on some of it. They just didn't bother for about 3/5's of the houses.

Yes they should have got planning permission; no the council shouldn't have spent as much money as they did.

The next place they rock up is going to go through all this all over again and seems like a waste of time but no one wants them living next door as it devalues ones property.

 

[Scouse]

I disagree:

The problem is, the Pikey Cunts don't think that the laws of the land apply to them so they went ahead and built on it anyway.

The problem is that a load of jumped-up authoritarians would rather spend their last 20 million quid on enforcing planning permission than spend it on saving lives.

I mean, in a world of finite resources you have to pick your fights, right?. The English understand their priorities - and forcing people through violent means to follow planning permission is more important than saving lives.

- We can't afford to do both.

 

[DaGaffer]

Look like very similar things from the wiki entry. Why do you say they are different in an argument with someone who's obviously got direct experience of them and asserts otherwise?

Have you visited dale farm and been to Christiania? If you have I'll give more weight to your words as opposed to someone who hasn't...

Well for a kick off Christiania started out as a giant Squat as I understand it, on a former military barracks(?) whereas Dale Farm is Green Belt land and the owners of Dale Farm have known this since the day they bought it (There is an issue that the residents claim it was originally a scrapyard, so hardly green belt, but guess what, that was built illegally by a Traveller as well!) Everyone rightly threatened John Prescott with bloody murder when he started talking about green belt building, but somehow its OK if you're a gypsy? Don't think so.

As for your "£20M well spent" line Scouse, blame the way our legal system works. If the Dale Farm residents were allowed to stay, that sets a legal precedent, and every other Pikey with second hand Merc and pregnant teenage daughter would be throwing up horrible little houses all over England. This isn't about Dale Farm, its about what Dale Farm represents, which is sticking two fingers up to planning laws that we actually need in a very overcrowded country.

 

[throdgrain]

Saving lives? What are you on about??

This is the normal issue of do-as-you-likeys doing, well, exactly as they like and to hell with everyone else. The reason it's taken so long I bet is because you cannot deal with these people, they do exactly what they want and fuck you if you get in thier way.

When they have a camp here where I work before the Epsom races sometimes the whole village has to close, not just the 2 pubs but even the pretrol station.

 

[Scouse]

Saving lives? What are you on about??

This is the normal issue of do-as-you-likeys doing, well, exactly as they like and to hell with everyone else. The reason it's taken so long I bet is because you cannot deal with these people, they do exactly what they want and fuck you if you get in thier way.

When they have a camp here where I work before the Epsom races sometimes the whole village has to close, not just the 2 pubs but even the pretrol station.

My argument is pretty simple Throd - and your faux "what are you on about" is amusing. But to humour you - I'm "on about" this:

1) It costs a lot of money to do this.
2) We've not got much - spend on this means no spend elsewhere (hospitals-lives)
3) We can't win - if we move them on we get the same problem elsewhere.


So. We could spunk a LOAD of cash, which would be BETTER SPENT ELSEWHERE, endlessly chasing these fuckers around the country.

Or we could spend it on something else. Like cancer drugs and life saving operations.


Pretty fucking simple. Or are you going to ignore the fact that we only have finite resources?

 

[Raven]

That's not the point and you know it.

If they didn't think themselves above the law then the council wouldn't have had to act. If they hadn't acted it would have set a president and every other fucker would be off building nasty little slums all over the place. Blame the gypos for the cost of the case and the cost of removing them, not the council.

 

[Scouse]

That's not the point and you know it.

That is the point and you're ignoring it.




It's a waste of cash, waste of time, it's just a fucking pathetic waste - and being run by people who know full well that when they win the gypos will do the same thing somewhere else. Again. And. Again. For-evah.

It's fucking lunacy.

 

[DaGaffer]

That is the point and you're ignoring it.

It's a waste of cash, waste of time, it's just a fucking pathetic waste - and being run by people who know full well that when they win the gypos will do the same thing somewhere else. Again. And. Again. For-evah.

It's fucking lunacy.

I'm sorry, that's just a ridiculous argument.

First of all you don't give up because something is difficult, you find ways to fix the problem. Second, the 20M you save by not sorting out Dale Farm won't magically appear in the NHS budget to buy a dialysis machine; the police will just spend it somewhere else, that's how the public sector works. Third, it doesn't automatically follow that this is a story that repeats itself the same way; spend the money now, establish the case law, and councils will be empowered to act more quickly.

 

[Chilly]

Just because it's expensive to enforce the law does not mean you shouldnt do it. A person might contribute 100k a year to the economy, but they have cancer and consume 450k in medical resources a year. Do we just let them die? No. As a society, we have made the decision that (up to certain very large ceilings) we will enforce the law and spend what needs to be spent.

We do not live in a perfect market and you cannot measure everything on return on capital employed.

If you let them get away with it, others will do it and it'll end up costing us MORE in the long run dealing with the problems than the 20 million quid today. that type of short term thinking is exactly what fucks companies, economies and peoples lives. Think about the next 50 years, not 50 weeks.

 

[Scouse]

Disagree Gaff. That 20m has supposedly been what it's cost the council. They set the budget - in advance - they knew what it was going to take to do this.

So, they had hospitals screaming for more cash but knew that they wanted to spend 20m on evicting residents from land they own and have planning permission towards half of.

You're talking like they had no alternative choices. They do. But they haven't put the effort into exploring them that they have into stamping their authority down.

That is the story of councils everywhere. A friend is currently having a running battle between the council about a residents permit parking scheme on his street. The council want single yellows. He's got the local MP and 100% of the street backing him on the parking scheme as it will 1) still achieve all of the councils objectives, 2) make all of the locals happy and 3) it's cheaper.

The council are still wasting MY money by fighting this common-sense, money-saving, democratically-sound proposal.


In Dale Farm's case they could save a fuckload of cash by finding out what needs to be done to get planning permission granted for this piddly tiny little insignificant piece of land and use the cash they saved to, I dunno, build a new heart ward.

Or even *gasp!* turn a blind eye as other things are more important.


But no! People have been breaking t3h lawz! People who we know will always break the laws and people who we know we're never going to beat - because all we have done, all we have EVER done, is move them on.

It's pathetic that people standing on a point of principle waste limited money in this fashion.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Scouse in anti authoriatrian shocker. Don't try and argue against him, no matter how wrong he is. It's always "them above"'s fault.

 

[Embattle]

Doing nothing sets the precedent of doing nothing in the future. The actual problem is how long winded and expensive the system has become with such situations, from travelers to illegal immigrants everything involves a massive amount of time and thus money.

Last time I checked Hospitals are centrally funded so not sure why they are being used in various examples.

 

[Scouse]

Scouse in anti authoriatrian shocker. Don't try and argue against him, no matter how wrong he is. It's always "them above"'s fault.

Wazz in another hasn't-provided-an-actual-argument (other-than-prejudice) non-shocker.

 

[Scouse]

Aaaargh, fucking edit time! Aaanyway:

Doing nothing sets the precedent of doing nothing in the future. The actual problem is how long winded and expensive the system has become with such situations, from travelers to illegal immigrants everything involves a massive amount of time and thus money.

Last time I checked Hospitals are centrally funded so not sure why they are being used in various examples.

Doing nothing about a problem you're never going to solve is cheap.


As for hospitals - I used it because it was an obvious analogy. Exactly how they are funded doesn't really matter in the example unless we're now going to descend into pedantry to support our arguments.

 

[Kahland]

Scouse in anti authoriatrian shocker. Don't try and argue against him, no matter how wrong he is. It's always "them above"'s fault.

And you're afraid, of the terrorists???. Seems like the UK is turning it into a witchhunt after the city riots. Just like USA went into war after 9/11.