Couldn't have said it better myself

[crispy]

Problem is he is only talking about a loud minority

And the rioting here in denmark started even before the event he was talking about ^_^

 

[Mey]

Didn't heroin production increase in afhganistan after we began our freedom operations?

 

[BloodOmen]

I agree with the people that do say he sounds abit mad at times, but I also agree with alot of what he says.


Example, "Almost anything we do now has to be in some way aproved by islam" things that have been around for some long in europe like for example (even tho this may be a a poor example its still an example none the less) The Three little pigs, the first ever copy of this was published around the early 1800's its been apart of our history for a very long time

"In March 2007, the story was modified in some British schools to "three little puppies" to avoid offending Muslim families."

"The word Islām, from the triliteral root s-l-m, is derived from the Arabic verb Aslama, which means "to accept, surrender or submit."

Now i'm not having a go at muslims for it because i'm quite sure a majority of muslims didnt even care about it all i'm saying is if things like that can get changed for such a religion when will it stop? what will be the level it stops at? what else will be changed? perhaps they'll get pork banned?

And now they're trying to get "Sharia" passed in england, I for one don't want such a silly law in this country. I don't know just HOW much of sharia they're trying to pass but if they manage to pass the whole thing... do you really want to see children being stoned to death in the streets? do you think you are going to be able to bring up children normal if by chance they witness a stoning near you? do you want to see other things sharia brings?


And on a final note i'm just going to say this, i'm not racist (although alot of you reading this will most likely think I am) muslims that try to fit in it a new place rather than whine because they can't bring things with them from an old place have my utmost respect.

 

[Chronictank]

ahh what have i started!, i didnt mean anything too deep by it
Just to clarify;
I wasn't jutifying whether or not we should go in, thats a whole different discussion
I was just simply saying we have and we do, so it is a pretty hypocritical argument saying dont come to "our" (by that i mean people here on FH, other than Hawkwind because the bastard sits int he sun all day while we freeze, Yes i'm bitter) country and do the same

 

[Chronictank]

I agree with the people that do say he sounds abit mad at times, but I also agree with alot of what he says.

Example, "Almost anything we do now has to be in some way aproved by islam" things that have been around for some long in europe like for example (even tho this may be a a poor example its still an example none the less) The Three little pigs, the first ever copy of this was published around the early 1800's its been apart of our history for a very long time

"In March 2007, the story was modified in some British schools to "three little puppies" to avoid offending Muslim families."

Remember bah bah black sheep too? or are we just going to say thats for Islam too ? What about stopping kids playing with conkers?
Or lets go a bit older, how many schools stock a copy of Mein Kampf?

Your argument holds no water to be honest, there are literally hundreds of things changed by the over-zelous PC people, that is in no way limited to Islam but more EverythingAPhobia

"The word Islām, from the triliteral root s-l-m, is derived from the Arabic verb Aslama, which means "to accept, surrender or submit."

Yep 90% correct, the words meaning changes in the context that it is put it
So it means "surrending oneself to god"
So technically speaking a christian could loosely be described as practicing Islam

And now they're trying to get "Sharia" passed in england, I for one don't want such a silly law in this country. I don't know just HOW much of sharia they're trying to pass but if they manage to pass the whole thing... do you really want to see children being stoned to death in the streets? do you think you are going to be able to bring up children normal if by chance they witness a stoning near you? do you want to see other things sharia brings?

Why do people keep bringing this up out of context when it has been pretty well discussed here?
NOONE (other than the occasional nut, but then they believe in death to infidels and blowing themselves up is cool too) said that they wanted full on Sharia law,
the actual debate was brought up in the context of civil law (or common law if you will), which caters to specific circumstances under mutual agreement of parties involved.
I cant really discuss what exactly was wanted as there was no discussion into it, the papers just had a feeding frenzy and the public equally without even reading the rest of the article got on the bandwagon.
While i wouldnt want to live under some of the Sharia laws, is it so bad that we look to other legal systems to improve our own? I personally like the idea of on some crimes when someone is found guilty the victim can decide the punishment from a pre-determined set of actions

And on a final note i'm just going to say this, i'm not racist (although alot of you reading this will most likely think I am)

Not at all, unlike the posted videos you put forward an intelligent discussion rather than a rant with little/no factual basis

 

[Iceforge]

Does you being born in a coutry without a dictator automatically entitle you to tell other people how much freedom they should have? Are you so fooking 100% sure that WE are living in freedom and that human rights are always respected here?

No, being born in a democracy does not give me that right.
Being a member of the world population gives us all the responsibility through.

No, I never stated that human rights are always respected here, nor did I say that we should turn our backs to violations of the human rights that happen EVERY day in our own backyard, so why the attack?

But do you believe that the freedoms not being complete and the human rights not being respected completely here, means we have to accept others living with even fever freedoms and rights?

 

[BloodOmen]

Just going to post a few things about a man that used to be a muslim, he believed in it with his life he was even sent to prison for a brief period for terrorist attacks against israel.

A few other links which Walid Shoebat has appeared in/with lead to a fascinating read.

Islam: What the West Needs to Know - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Walid Shoebat, unlike MR condell who many people may just say "Oh he's a raving loony" Walid Shoebat was apart of this, he commited terrorist attacks against people in this religions name, if you won't listen to a raving loony on liveleak atleast listen to someone thats lived this religion practically all his life.



"Shoebat was born in Bethlehem. He was the grandson of the Mukhtar of Beit Sahour, who Shoebat describes as an associate of Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Mohammad Amin al-Husayni. During his youth, Shoebat joined the Palestine Liberation Organization, and was involved in terrorist attacks against Israel. He was caught by the Israelis during a botched bombing attempt and was sent to prison.

Upon his release, Shoebat continued his anti-Israeli activism until he migrated to the US, where he became involved with the Arab Student Organization at Loop College in Chicago. Shortly afterwards Walid worked as a software engineer and became a US citizen. In 1993, Walid converted to Christianity after examining the Bible in response to a challenge from his wife, initially trying to persuade her into converting to Islam. He has since studied various historical documents relating to Jewish and Middle East history.

After the September 11 terrorist attacks in 2001, Shoebat became an active advocate against Islamism and a fervent supporter of the State of Israel. He has appeared on mainstream media around the world including CNN, FOX News, ITN, RTE, NBC, CBS, ABC, and Pacifica Radio and has been heard on hundreds of radio stations around the US and the world. Shoebat has given lectures at many US institutions such as Stanford University, Harvard Law School, Capital Hill, Columbia University, Concordia University, UC Davis, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, UCLA, UC Irvine, USC, UC Santa Barbara, University of Georgia, Washington University, Penn State and San Diego State. He is featured as an expert witness on a number of documentaries on Islamism.

Shoebat argues that parallels exist between radical Islam and Nazism. He says, "Secular dogma like Nazism is less dangerous than Islamofascism that we see today ... because Islamofascism has a religious twist to it; it says 'God the Almighty ordered you to do this'.... It is trying to grow itself in fifty-five Muslim states. So potentially, you could have a success rate of several Nazi Germanys, if these people get their way."

 

[Ezteq]

yep i agree that if you move to another country then by all means take your culture and your religion with you but dont expect all aspects of it to fit in with your new home (i.e. stoning people and decapitating folks) yes yes i know they dont all do that but it is acceptable in muslim countries to do that so what they want to do in their own terratory is up to them.

Yep i agree that the extreamists are fucking nuts (technical term) i mean blowing folk up just for having a differing POV? thats not right really is it? and yes there is a difference between doing it in war and doing it out of terrorism im not sorry or ashamed that we fought to bring down hitler and imo bin laden needs his arse kicking too you dont go blowing up buildings full of workers and killing plane passengers just because you feel its right.

threatening the life of an illustrator because he did something that your religion forbids...not his religion btw its just yours, well thats wrong too. Come on how many of you take, have taken or have seen the media take the piss out of jehovahs witnesses/scientologists/catholics...christians in general/hari crishnas (sp?) and have any of those gone postal about it? ok the extream cristians get a bug up their arse about tuff like abortion and gay rights and stuff and some of them act militantly but i dont agree with them either.

Its a shame that people think all muslims are extreamists its a shame that its only the violent gobby ones that get air time, the ones that fit in and go about their business and enrich this country dont get much recognition and that is a real damn shame.

basically i dont agree with anyone who tries to enforce their beliefs on others, tell me about them sure! i love to learn about new stuff but dont go trying to convert me. I don't ask that people with other beliefs abandon them when they move to a country that holds different beliefs e.g. when my bf travelled china he could practice his religion but the chinese were not encouraged...put lightly to practice cristianity. When his dad lived in saudi they were not allowed to celebrate any christian festival or even pray openly and preists had to come in under cover.

Tollerance is something i am all for but it has to be equal tollerance otherwise its just bullying.

 

[Iceforge]

yep i agree that if you move to another country then by all means take your culture and your religion with you but dont expect all aspects of it to fit in with your new home (i.e. stoning people and decapitating folks) yes yes i know they dont all do that but it is acceptable in muslim countries to do that so what they want to do in their own terratory is up to them.

While I know this is in no way what you meant, I just can't get people thinking so.

Stoning people is okay, as long as it is not where I live...

Decapitating people is okay, as long as it is not where I live...

Hanging gays, for..well being gay, is okay, as long as it is not where I live...

I don't see how it happening far away and with that places governments approval makes it any less of a crime, on the contrast, I think government sanctioned crimes are worse than any others...

 

[Chronictank]

Shoebat argues that parallels exist between radical Islam and Nazism. He says, "Secular dogma like Nazism is less dangerous than Islamofascism that we see today ... because Islamofascism has a religious twist to it; it says 'God the Almighty ordered you to do this'.... It is trying to grow itself in fifty-five Muslim states. So potentially, you could have a success rate of several Nazi Germanys, if these people get their way."

Ok firstly, he was a terrosist who blew up civilians, somethign explicitly forbidden in the religion he claimed to follow. So to start off with he has a pretty shaky grip of what he claims to be following

It is no secret whatsoever that there are parallels between christianity, Judaism and Islam, it is very well documented and in Persia was publically discussed rather than having conversations which conflict with someones belief being squashed under a PC banner. If it took him to move to the US it just re-affirms that all he did was take someone elses (and very obviously a radiical) view and paint it as his own with very little research into the matter himself

Then he just decieds he will become an avid supported of a country that is guilty of commiting so many crimes against humanity that it makes sadaam look like a puppy (yes, platin we all know you believe they were in "pro-active self defence")

Tbh you couldnt have picked a worse candidate to make an example of, he has a pretty obvious agenda and uses the fact he was a muslim to further it.
Just like the video posted he has found a radical view people have latched onto so is using it to further his own goals

However while it is done in a very biased manner in an almost propogandic way it does provide a unique insight into the mindset and workins of radical Islam (ableit a very one sided one), i found it pretty interesting how things can be changed and cut to support a view of your choice.
The propoganda video's made by the radical organisations seemed to be pretty legitimate on the surface, and unless you have looked yourself they look pretty accurate so i did find it quite disturbing that if you dont have explicit knowledge of the subject you may just take them as truth, much like his movies and lectures

 

[BloodOmen]

yep i agree that if you move to another country then by all means take your culture and your religion with you but dont expect all aspects of it to fit in with your new home (i.e. stoning people and decapitating folks) yes yes i know they dont all do that but it is acceptable in muslim countries to do that so what they want to do in their own terratory is up to them.

Yep i agree that the extreamists are fucking nuts (technical term) i mean blowing folk up just for having a differing POV? thats not right really is it? and yes there is a difference between doing it in war and doing it out of terrorism im not sorry or ashamed that we fought to bring down hitler and imo bin laden needs his arse kicking too you dont go blowing up buildings full of workers and killing plane passengers just because you feel its right.

threatening the life of an illustrator because he did something that your religion forbids...not his religion btw its just yours, well thats wrong too. Come on how many of you take, have taken or have seen the media take the piss out of jehovahs witnesses/scientologists/catholics...christians in general/hari crishnas (sp?) and have any of those gone postal about it? ok the extream cristians get a bug up their arse about tuff like abortion and gay rights and stuff and some of them act militantly but i dont agree with them either.

Its a shame that people think all muslims are extreamists its a shame that its only the violent gobby ones that get air time, the ones that fit in and go about their business and enrich this country dont get much recognition and that is a real damn shame.

basically i dont agree with anyone who tries to enforce their beliefs on others, tell me about them sure! i love to learn about new stuff but dont go trying to convert me. I don't ask that people with other beliefs abandon them when they move to a country that holds different beliefs e.g. when my bf travelled china he could practice his religion but the chinese were not encouraged...put lightly to practice cristianity. When his dad lived in saudi they were not allowed to celebrate any christian festival or even pray openly and preists had to come in under cover.

Tollerance is something i am all for but it has to be equal tollerance otherwise its just bullying.

Indeed :/ not allowed to practice religion there BUT when they come to ur country its a whole different matter... not sounding like a bastard or anything but they remind me of spoilt children that cry when they can't get their own way.

 

[Ezteq]

While I know this is in no way what you meant, I just can't get people thinking so.

Stoning people is okay, as long as it is not where I live...

Decapitating people is okay, as long as it is not where I live...

Hanging gays, for..well being gay, is okay, as long as it is not where I live...

I don't see how it happening far away and with that places governments approval makes it any less of a crime, on the contrast, I think government sanctioned crimes are worse than any others...

its not ok but then neither is a lot of stuff going on in the world and if we interfere and start telling one country what it should and should not do then we'd have to tell all the rest too. (would this not constitute enforcing our beliefs on others? not sure on that)

I was just reading an article on female circumcision that they perform in africa and how they are doing in in england too, basically they take a young girl and cut her sex organs off so that she can never enjoy sex, a lot of girls die from this. It is definately not right and they should never do it but we have no duristiction for other countries the least we can do is stop it here like all the corruption and brutality in africa, the child sex trade in asia, selling children in to forced marriages in india, the KKK in america, honour killings all over the place.

all of it is so wrong but we cant just go in to somebody elses country and say "oi, stop that!" look at when we went in to iraq and afganistan, everyone in the world is tellign us to bugger off and mind our own business. so all im saying is its not right but there isnt anything we can do about it when its abroad we just have to stamp it the hell out if it tries to become the norm in this country because of it being "their culture".

its not right though, i know what you mean.

 

[Iceforge]

its not ok but then neither is a lot of stuff going on in the world and if we interfere and start telling one country what it should and should not do then we'd have to tell all the rest too. (would this not constitute enforcing our beliefs on others? not sure on that)

I was just reading an article on female circumcision that they perform in africa and how they are doing in in england too, basically they take a young girl and cut her sex organs off so that she can never enjoy sex, a lot of girls die from this. It is definately not right and they should never do it but we have no duristiction for other countries the least we can do is stop it here like all the corruption and brutality in africa, the child sex trade in asia, selling children in to forced marriages in india, the KKK in america, honour killings all over the place.

all of it is so wrong but we cant just go in to somebody elses country and say "oi, stop that!" look at when we went in to iraq and afganistan, everyone in the world is tellign us to bugger off and mind our own business. so all im saying is its not right but there isnt anything we can do about it when its abroad we just have to stamp it the hell out if it tries to become the norm in this country because of it being "their culture".

its not right though, i know what you mean.

glad we agree! Such a shame through that we can't do much about those things.

I might sound bigot, stupid and intolerant, but sometimes I wonder if Stalin wasn't on the right track, as most of the horrors of the world, through my eyes, comes from religion.

Oh, about the female circumcision, that is fortunately forbidden completely where I live (Denmark) and I am 99% sure there was a case of one who was actually charge, tried and convicted for sending his daughter out the country to have it done and then came back.

 

[BloodOmen]

Ok firstly, he was a terrosist who blew up civilians, somethign explicitly forbidden in the religion he claimed to follow. So to start off with he has a pretty shaky grip of what he claims to be following

It is no secret whatsoever that there are parallels between christianity, Judaism and Islam, it is very well documented and in Persia was publically discussed rather than having conversations which conflict with someones belief being squashed under a PC banner. If it took him to move to the US it just re-affirms that all he did was take someone elses (and very obviously a radiical) view and paint it as his own with very little research into the matter himself

Then he just decieds he will become an avid supported of a country that is guilty of commiting so many crimes against humanity that it makes sadaam look like a puppy (yes, platin we all know you believe they were in "pro-active self defence")

Tbh you couldnt have picked a worse candidate to make an example of, he has a pretty obvious agenda and uses the fact he was a muslim to further it.
Just like the video posted he has found a radical view people have latched onto so is using it to further his own goals

However while it is done in a very biased manner in an almost propogandic way it does provide a unique insight into the mindset and workins of radical Islam (ableit a very one sided one), i found it pretty interesting how things can be changed and cut to support a view of your choice.
The propoganda video's made by the radical organisations seemed to be pretty legitimate on the surface, and unless you have looked yourself they look pretty accurate so i did find it quite disturbing that if you dont have explicit knowledge of the subject you may just take them as truth, much like his movies and lectures

Quite aware it doesnt directly say "look mate go out and kill people for us ok?" ask yourself this tho Chronic, if the religion had never existed would he have commited those crimes? would he have gone out and killed innocent civilians?

 

[Chronictank]

Edit timer

However the significance of the movie was lost on alot of people who decided that the views portrayed in the movie were a representation of the middle east, and in some cases even the Muslim community in general prime example of this being the FOX network.

I think anyone who is interested in global politics should watch the movie, but take it with a pinch of salt

 

[Chronictank]

Quite aware it doesnt directly say "look mate go out and kill people for us ok?" ask yourself this tho Chronic, if the religion had never existed would he have commited those crimes? would he have gone out and killed innocent civilians?

Yes, they would
I can say that with no doubt at all

Religion has been used as an excuse for furthering peoples own regimes for centuries, if it wasn't religion it would be something else.
There are people who commit violence for religion alone, but i think you will struggle to find many who's sole motivation was in the name of any religion. Religion is a tool to rile people up because they beleive in it passionately but it is nothing more than a tool

After all, just look at todays political climate countries are being invaded under the banner of "spreading democracy"

 

[Ezteq]

oh without religion we'd have found some other excuse to go fight with eachother tbh.

I mean it really is human nature, look at kids, when i was in playschool (so i was like 4 yrs old) i went one day and got bullied mercilessly because i had red hair, i never went back. when i went to school the fit kids picked on the fat kids who picked on the poor kids who picked on the kids with glasses who picked on the kids with braces who picked on the smelly kids who picked on the skinny kids who picked on the short kids who picked on the tall bean pole kids who picked on the kids with ugly parents who picked on the kids with one parent who picked ont he kids with no parents who picked on the kids with the over protective parents who picked on the kids with head lice who picked on the kids with asthma who wheezed a bit then picked on the kids with spots who picked on the kids who were related to the teacher who picked on the brainey kids who picked on the thick kids...then when they got bored they all picked on the red headed kid.


so i mean theres always some stupid reason to fight with people who are (deep down) the same as the rest of us.

 

[Chronictank]

so i mean theres always some stupid reason to fight with people who are (deep down) the same as the rest of us.

I think it's more people always want what they dont have, but are willing to go to varying degrees to get it

Power and Money are the main motivators for war, and always will be
Religion just allows you to create a faceless enemy

 

[Iceforge]

Both agree and disagree with Chronic there!

Some acts would still prevail without religions, but a lot of them wouldn't.

I forgot who said this originally, so I will just quote it without the source:

"With or without religon, good people will do good and evil people will do evil. For a good people to do evil however, now that takes religion"

 

[Chronictank]

Both agree and disagree with Chronic there!

Some acts would still prevail without religions, but a lot of them wouldn't.

I forgot who said this originally, so I will just quote it without the source:

"With or without religon, good people will do good and evil people will do evil. For a good people to do evil however, now that takes religion"

Steven Weinberg , did physics i believe with a guy something Salam who was a devout Muslim who used the qu'ran as a basis for his theories

Edit: Abdus Salam, wikepdia ftw

He once wrote: "The Holy Quran enjoins us to reflect on the verities of Allah's created laws of nature; however, that our generation has been privileged to glimpse a part of His design is a bounty and a grace for which I render thanks with a humble heart."[5]

During his acceptance speech for the Nobel Prize in Physics, Salam quoted the following verses from the Quran:

"Thou seest not, in the creation of the All-merciful any imperfection, Return thy gaze, seest thou any fissure. Then Return thy gaze, again and again. Thy gaze, Comes back to thee dazzled, aweary."

He then said, "This, in effect, is the faith of all physicists; the deeper we seek, the more is our wonder excited, the more is the dazzlement for our gaze." [6]

Glad you posted that tbh, religion doesnt just result in bad things
Some of the greatest minds, discoveries and creations spawned from religion

 

[Ezteq]

sadly true they do evil and think they are doing it for devine reasons and can only be right.

anyone read gullivers travels btw? there are counrties or states that are at war with eachother because one side uses a knife to cut the top off their boiled eggs and one uses a spoon (or in another edition one eats the egg pointy side up and one pointy side down), both think they have the "right" way of doing it and are determined to reeducate their foe. just something that came to me in the midst of this discussion and thought it might amuse you to see how petty the whole business really is.

A] im right,

B] no your not i am!

*biff*
*pow*
*boff*

C] hay guys, just do things your own way and live and let live!

A&B] f.u hippy!!!

*biff*
*Pow*
*boff*

 

[BloodOmen]

Quite aware it doesnt directly say "look mate go out and kill people for us ok?" ask yourself this tho Chronic, if the religion had never existed would he have commited those crimes? would he have gone out and killed innocent civilians?

Yes, they would
I can say that with no doubt at all

I was refering to Walid Shoebat thus saying "he" at any rate i'd have to agree with 1 thing you said there "They" most likely would still commit crime, the world is full of crime BUT! it does not alter the fact that people have killed in that religions name due to so called religious leaders/icons that claim people are doing gods work if they go and blow up a church or such.

And with that question I wasn't saying no one would have died and the world would remain crimeless forever... all i'm saying is over religious matters would those innocent people have been injured/lost loved ones/died?

 

[Rookiescot]

WAIT !!!!!!

According to that guys video ..... Islam forces young women to marry old men?

WHERE THE HELL DO I SIGN UP ???????

 

[Chronictank]

ah sorry i misread,
again the answer would be yes, if he met a charasmatic leader who was able to convert him to his beliefs to the point of fanaticism
He has shown how impressionable he is, twice

 

[Chronictank]

WAIT !!!!!!

According to that guys video ..... Islam forces young women to marry old men?

WHERE THE HELL DO I SIGN UP ???????

it doesnt, however middle eastern culture is a different matter

 

[Gorbachioo]

I think hes right about just about everything in the video except for this: He doesnt place enough emphasis on the fact that most muslims condemn jihadists.

Also, most muslims do make an effort to fit in to our societies except for when it comes to harmless things like the scarves and such, which im ok with.

We need to start fighting for our culture because right now we're being fucked in the ass :O

 

[Iceforge]

oh, btw, I dont only want to post stuff for one side! As I said, I support that some evil acts are commited regardless and for those who will say nobody will give up their life without religion (i.e. suicide bombers or 9/11 flyers) I strongly recommend looking up Durkheim, if you got access to his book "Suicide" it will perfectly explain the reason for and difference between the 3 types of suicide, of which only 1 is usually seen in western civilization: The egoistic suicide

 

[Huntingtons]

Oh, about the female circumcision

as a matter of fact it has been changed in the danish language to female mutilation

 

[Iceforge]

as a matter of fact it has been changed in the danish language to female mutilation

Not entirely true! The media frequently use the female mutilation instead of circumcision, but thats because female circumcision has been classified as a female mutilation (atleast in Denmark)

 

[Huntingtons]

so we agree?