Couldn't have said it better myself

[Iceforge]

so we agree?

Sort of Just that female mutilation can be other things than female circumcision, which I completely forgot to point out in last post making it rather meaningless

 

[Gorbachioo]

As it seems like chronic is the only person here who has actually read the Quran (so i remember anyway) could you answer this question?

Everyone (including you) keep saying that violence is not a part of Islam/Quran and that suicide bombers are doing against their faith. But then as we saw in the Geert Wilders document (other Islam thread thread) that the Quran very clearly encourages violence against non muslims.

Is he lying?

 

[Iceforge]

As it seems like chronic is the only person here who has actually read the Quran (so i remember anyway) could you answer this question?

Everyone (including you) keep saying that violence is not a part of Islam/Quran and that suicide bombers are doing against their faith. But then as we saw in the Geert Wilders document (other Islam thread thread) that the Quran very clearly encourages violence against non muslims.

Is he lying?

Not excatly, but he is cherrypicking, which almost all people do when debate religious books.
He takes the violent parts and promote those, without showing all the parts promoting love and respect for others.
By the same procedure, you can show how violent and intolerant the bible is as well.

Most religious people cherrypick all the good parts of their religious books, which promotes good moral behaviour, the problem being that the few extremist fanatics often cherrypicks the violent part and use it as reason for violent horrific acts.

Does that clear it up?

 

[Himse]

I just don't get a few things on this topic.

One, why is it that if we protest in any way against their beliefs, or in the way they dress, its "racist" and we get a big uproar about it. One woman in the Evening Standard, was moaning about the fact she couldn't get a job as a hairdresser because she was wearing a headscarf. Granted, its not the best reason not to give someone a job, but surely a hairdresser needs to show their hair as a presentation standard?

I am quite happy for them to live here, integrate with our society. Afterall whenever we go to their countries, we respect all their rules.

Also, completely off muslims, why the fuck did Naomi Campbell say her arrest was a racist attack? That kinda shit pisses me off.

I don't think its Muslims, its just Political correctness, and a total bunch of assholes.

To be honest, sometimes i feel like i can't talk about different faiths in public because i'd be dubbed as racist and a horrible person.

I find it hard to say "Black Person" in public, because everyones like WHAT THE FUCK YOU SAID BLACK.

Just silly things make it hard to live in the UK.


Personally, i think it's the labour party & the rest of the muppets that sit in the House of Commons trying to turn us into a nanny state.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Not excatly, but he is cherrypicking, which almost all people do when debate religious books.
He takes the violent parts and promote those, without showing all the parts promoting love and respect for others.
By the same procedure, you can show how violent and intolerant the bible is as well.

Most religious people cherrypick all the good parts of their religious books, which promotes good moral behaviour, the problem being that the few extremist fanatics often cherrypicks the violent part and use it as reason for violent horrific acts.

Does that clear it up?

So does the Quran tell you to kill jews first and then tell you to love them? Or does it tell you to kill jews and love other muslims? I doubt that its the first one... And i dont think that promoting love for your own kind makes it ok to say that everyone else has to die.

The bible is violent and intolerant. No news there.

 

[Lamp]

Also, completely off muslims, why the fuck did Naomi Campbell say her arrest was a racist attack? That kinda shit pisses me off.

Naomi Campbell is a spoilt brat who will (literally) kick bite and scream if she doesn't get everything her own way instantly. She's a full-time approval seeking attention junkie where the whole world has to revolve around her every whim.

Of course she's going to play the race card. Did you expect anything else from someone who can't defend their actions and so has to fall back on the old cliche.

She's not eccentric. She's loopy. The less media attention she gets the better IMO

 

[Chronictank]

So does the Quran tell you to kill jews first and then tell you to love them?

Neither,
the Jews arent mentioned at all in the verses from the Meccan period, and when they are mentioned it is insignificant if you mean Jews in the general sense. THe word "yahud" (Jew in Arabic)and its derivatives occur 11 times in the qu'ran in its entirety.

However there is harsh critisisms in relation to a particular group of Jewish people (the Jews of Medina) who are depicted in a negative light,and later by association the crucifiction of christ.

There is no anti-Jewish verses or animosity towards Jewish people in the qu'ran, bar one passage which there was and is much arguing over in terms of its meaning where it critisises Jews of refusing to acknowledge Muhammad as a prophet of god who performed "treachery against Muhammad" (i cant remember the context of this sorry ) and the architects of the death of Jesus".
These are the verses which fudnementalists latch onto, and twist into their own purposes, and as such those who havent done any of their own research gets sucked in.

The Jewish faith is in fact revered in the qu'ran as a legitimate faith. In fact it eve goes further than that to give the Hewbrew prophets the status of having divine favour when they were escaping oppression.

No educated Jew has any problem with Islam because it doesnt conflict the Hebrew bible at all, it doesnt pretend to be a "better version" but more a clarification of the original mesage, as such no clash of interpretations is feasible as, while they overlap in some sections, they never actually have a conflict of message between them.

And therin lies the disgusting irony of the whole situation;
Ignorant jews fighting ignorant muslims...

 

[Lamp]

Well said, Chronic

 

[Chronictank]

Not excatly, but he is cherrypicking, which almost all people do when debate religious books.
He takes the violent parts and promote those, without showing all the parts promoting love and respect for others.
By the same procedure, you can show how violent and intolerant the bible is as well.

Most religious people cherrypick all the good parts of their religious books, which promotes good moral behaviour, the problem being that the few extremist fanatics often cherrypicks the violent part and use it as reason for violent horrific acts.

Does that clear it up?

to add to this a bit,
what people forget when looking at these things is that these books were written a long time ago in a language which is no longer used.
The qu'ran was written in 630, in old arabic.
So therein is the first hurdle; the qu'ran in its entirety is still in its original language, which even learned people who speak modern day arab have a task of deciphering.
From wikepedia; the beowulf manuscript

Now we all speak english but how many of you can make heads or tails of that

 

[Chronictank]

Now the above is a poem is merely the size of a small novel, the qu'ran is split into about 114 chapters known as sura's, each of these have severel verses (ayat) each of which have about 170 words.

To add to this due to the nature of the language words meanings change compeltely according to the context they are in, in addition advanced theorem and concepts are explained so often alot is lost in translation. For example the word qu'ran has over 50 different meanings depending on the usage because it is a symbolism rather than a real word

Furthermore it is written in a way akin to poetry and common things are intertwined within the text (quite cleverly in places), which is why it is often sung rather than read in public prayer


Another issue is that more often that not it is written in a form of caligraphy;

Spoiler

while this is meaningless to most of you compare it to plain text

Spoiler

Now while on the surface this seems like no problem at all it is
theequivalent ofme writing like this. If you were clever enough you could split the words to mean something completely different to its original text.

Now taking into account that the majority of muslims cant read the original text (myself included), and from the ones who can only a significant minority are fluent in old arabicthere is a increasingly lazy culture who rely on other peoples opinions (not even taking the itme to pick up a translated copy, they are literally available in 30+ languages)

While i dont agree with everything in it, i understand why it is there and act according to my own judgement. it is a great (if a bit dry) philosphical read and if you approach it with an open mind it often made me question attitudes and judgements i had/have and (i hope at least) bettered me as a person for doing so.
But it is a very heavy read, and pretty hard going even when translated into English.

 

[Huntingtons]

if beowulf is old its probably written in latin though. (which it is since it has Æ (ae))

 

[Iceforge]

if beowulf is old its probably written in latin though. (which it is since it has Æ (ae))

The Old English alphabet had Æ in it like the Danish Alphabet still does:

Æ according to wiki

 

[Chronictank]

No idea,
i just typed old english in google to use as an example

Apologies for above i went on a bit hehe, some major procrastination to avoid doing my dissertation

 

[Huntingtons]

yeah thought of that after i put it in remember seeing it in old english texts - still. beowulf seems to be in latin with all the um's in it

 

[Gorbachioo]

Thanks for the clarification on the jews but you still didnt answer my original question as i only used the jews as an example.

Does the Quran tell you to kill people who are not muslims? I still find it hard to believe that all the quotes in the geert wilders document are really in some non violent context ;O

 

[Chronictank]

Thanks for the clarification on the jews but you still didnt answer my original question as i only used the jews as an example.

Does the Quran tell you to kill people who are not muslims? I still find it hard to believe that all the quotes in the geert wilders document are really in some non violent context ;O

Short answer, no it does not sanction killing innocents.
However it is a semi history book covering Muhammad's way to mecca, as such there are many quotes (a whole chapter in fact) which effectively create a ruleset for war (the whole only kill in defence etc etc stuff).
For example;

009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

This was labelled as "the sword verse" in a propoganda campaign, and as such labelling Islam a relgion forged by the sword.
Howver the section is actually titled 'THE REPENTANCE', and when you look at it in the context it was suppose to be used

Spoiler

009.001 A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

009.002 Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him.

009.003 And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

009.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.006 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

009.007 How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.

It is refering to war;
It goes on a few chapters about how you shouldnt hurt the innocent, anyone within a mosque (generic term for house of god) should not be touched (in those days when there was war civilians would go hide in the religious buildings, not much different from today)

His second quote

THose who have disbeleived out signs, we shall roast them in fire

Is actually

004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Referring to what happen to you when you go to hell

Spoiler

004.055 Some of them believed, and some of them averted their faces from him: And enough is Hell for a burning fire.

004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

004.057 But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, We shall soon admit to Gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal home: Therein shall they have companions pure and holy: We shall admit them to shades, cool and ever deepening.

I could go on but i think you get the idea.
wilders document, there is alot of picking and choosing. But then when isnt there? Although in his defence some of the chapters are pretty poorly translated (as paraphrasing is often avoided to keep the original message in tact), he has a political motive and needed someone to demonise and blame for his political gain (a bit like another party who sparked a world war, i hope you appreciate why it is so ironic he made a comparison to nazism)

 

[Gorbachioo]

Short answer, no it does not sanction killing innocents.
However it is a semi history book covering Muhammad's way to mecca, as such there are many quotes (a whole chapter in fact) which effectively create a ruleset for war (the whole only kill in defence etc etc stuff).
For example;

This was labelled as "the sword verse" in a propoganda campaign, and as such labelling Islam a relgion forged by the sword.
Howver the section is actually titled 'THE REPENTANCE', and when you look at it in the context it was suppose to be used

Spoiler

It is refering to war;
It goes on a few chapters about how you shouldnt hurt the innocent, anyone within a mosque (generic term for house of god) should not be touched (in those days when there was war civilians would go hide in the religious buildings, not much different from today)

His second quote

Is actually

Referring to what happen to you when you go to hell

I could go on but i think you get the idea.
wilders document, there is alot of picking and choosing. But then when isnt there? Although in his defence some of the chapters are pretty poorly translated (as paraphrasing is often avoided to keep the original message in tact), he has a political motive and needed someone to demonise and blame for his political gain (a bit like another party who sparked a world war, i hope you appreciate why it is so ironic he made a comparison to nazism)

I dont know maybe im just dumb or something but i dont get how that changes anything. I mean basically it says that if we dont believe in their faith god wont mind. Although we will go to hell. And then when the forbidden months are past its ok to kill the pagans. (with the exception that if they hide in a church or something you wont kill them. Probably meaning that waging war against them is ok but killing the civilians is not?) Right?

Having some trouble with the old school english there, correct me if im missing something.

A few more questions: Whats the Qurans position on womens rights? Racial equality? Gays?

 

[Chronictank]

I dont know maybe im just dumb or something but i dont get how that changes anything. I mean basically it says that if we dont believe in their faith god wont mind. Although we will go to hell. And then when the forbidden months are past its ok to kill the pagans. (with the exception that if they hide in a church or something you wont kill them. Probably meaning that waging war against them is ok but killing the civilians is not?) Right?

Having some trouble with the old school english there, correct me if im missing something.

In the context of the first quote 'the pagans', are refering to the people they were fighting at the time i.e. combatants/aggressors
It the equivalent of the following statement;
10 Iraqi's killed by British soldiers,
Now the meaning of the above is completely changed if we are at war is it not?

The second simply says good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, and goes into graphic detail what happens in hell, thats it

 

[Gorbachioo]

In the context of the first quote 'the pagans', are refering to the people they were fighting at the time i.e. combatants/aggressors
It the equivalent of the following statement;
10 Iraqi's killed by British soldiers,
Now the meaning of the above is completely changed if we are at war is it not?

The second simply says good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, and goes into graphic detail what happens in hell, thats it

Well i have to say im still not impressed. According to this the Quran still tells you to wage war against non muslims but it doesnt sanction the killing of innocent civilians. If another country is not a muslim country they are supposed to attack it. (As long as they dont slaughter civilians) Am i right?

Doesnt sound so peacefull to me.

Would still like to know what the Quran says about the things i listed in the previous post.

 

[Chronictank]

A few more questions: Whats the Qurans position on womens rights?

Ahh the big one;
To fully explain this we need to go into the history books a bit, before Islam (late 600's) womens had no rights at all, they were treated as property or slaves. Marriage was a contract between the father/owner of the girl and the husband rather than the woman having any rights in her own right (theres loads of stuff on ancient persia on google if you are more interested in this). It was pretty much a mirror of the dark ages in europe, egypt and india if that helps.
It actually went further than this, people would kill their children by burying them if they were female (infantcide) as it as seen as humiliation if the first child was a girl.
This is briefly highlighted in the qu'ran as a pre bit in the section regarding women;

Spoiler

"And when the news of (the birth of) a female (child) is brought to any of them, his face becomes dark, and he is filled with inward grief! He hides himself from the people because of the evil of that whereof he has been informed. Shall he keep her with dishonor or bury her in the earth? Certainly, evil is their decision."
(An-Nahl 16:58-59)

And when the female (infant) buried alive (as the pagan Arabs used to do)
shall be questioned. For what sin she was killed? (At-Takwir 81:8-9)

Note: I am using spoilers or the text gets too big

While this is not entirely relevant to today, it is a good idea to see what kind of enviroment it was before the Islamic movement took hold.

Now its a common misconception that sharia rules = islamic rules, that is quite simply not true. Sharia laws are loosely based on the ethics taught in the qu'ran but are more of a picture of common law which is quite archaic in itself.

Oddly enough women are revered to be more highly regarded than men, as they are seen as the ones who provide the 'miracle' of life. In the qu'ran Mary who is mostly overlooked in the bible is given more of a front stage and revered for being the one who gave birth to Jesus.

as a summary of main points regarding women (in one chapter as i cba to trawl through it all)

Women should be given recognition and be treated with honour

Spoiler

"O You who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at time of marriage) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings
through it a great deal of good." (An-Nisa 4:19)

Equal Rights

Spoiler

"O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship). Surely, Allah is Ever and All-Watcher over you." (Al-Nisa 4:1)

In the bible eve alone is blamed for the first sin, however in the qu'ran both adam and eve are guilty

Spoiler

"Then Satan whispered suggestions to them both in order to uncover that which was hidden from them of their private parts (before); he said: "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals." And he (Satan) swore by Allah to them both (saying): "Verily, I am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both." So he mislead them with deception. Then when they tasted of the tree, that which was hidden from them of their shame (private parts) became manifest to them and they began to stick together the leaves of Paradise over themselves (in order to cover their shame). And their Lord called out to them (saying): "Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you: Verily, Satan is an open enemy unto you?" They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If You forgive us not, and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers." (Allah) said: "Get down, one of you an enemy to the other (i.e. Adam, Eve, and Satan, etc.). On earth will be a dwelling-place for you and an enjoyment, - for a time." He said: "Therein you shall live, and therein you shall die, and from it you shall be brought out (i.e. resurrected)."(Al-A’raf 7:20-25)

However as as subtext women are given independance, but must alos acept the same responsibilities as a person and a muslim regardless of their gender

Women also do not lose their name when they get married, they retain their fathers name to mark her own identity. it also says in this bit that the man may only marry her through concent (at a muslim wedding the bride and groom are seperated initially, the imam (priest) goes to each party seperately and asks if they agree to the marriage, this in theory at least is suppose to prevent forced marriges as the woman is given the chance to say no without pressure). In addition to this she has the right to seek a divorce if she is not happy

Spoiler

"There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut [anything worshipped other then the Real God (Allah)] and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower."
(Al-Baqarah 2:256)

Women have the right to an education, i really have no idea where the no school for women policy came from as it is pretty explicit

Spoiler

"To seek knowledge is obligatory on every Muslim."
(Declared Authentic By Shaikh Muhammad Naasir-ud-Deen Al-Albaani)

It then goes further and encourages women not to give up learning after they have a family, there are alot of long quotes so i wont bother pasting but Az-Zumar 39:9 and Al-Mujadilah 58:11 are pretty good summaries to that effect

Women have the right to go to a mosque and pray, but it also says they should be segregated. The reason for this is that when you bend down into the prayer positions it stops guys perving on them
Prayer Positions2
As such it describes their home as a better place to pray

"If someone’s wife asks his permission to go to the mosque, he should not deny it to her."

"But their homes are better for them." (Reported by Abu Dawud and Ahmed)

Women and men are given equal rights, this is kind of spread out throughout the qu'ran rather than focused on one section but it covers things from social standing to work (equal pay). Women in persia around the 700's were actually better off than their western counterparts in terms of rights.

There are some restrictions to work though, now these have been argued over to their meaning but the middle ground is as follows;

Spoiler

1. Outside employment should not come before, or seriously interfere with her responsibilities as wife and mother.

2. Her work should not be a source of friction within the family, and the husband’s consent is required in order to eliminate later disagreements. If she is not married, she must have her guardian’s consent.

3. Her appearance, manner and tone of speech and overall behavior should follow Islamic guidelines. These include: restraining her glances in relation to any men near the work place, wearing correct Islamic dress, avoiding men, not walking in a provocative manner, and not using make-up or perfume in public.

4. Her job should not be one which causes moral corruption in society, or involve any prohibited trade or activity, affect her own religion, morals, dignity and good behavior, or subject her to temptations.

5. Her job should not be one which is mixing and associating with men.

6. A woman should try to seek employment in positions which require a woman’s special skills, or which relate to the needs of women and children, such as teaching, nursing other women, midwifery, medicine with specialization’s like pediatric or obstetrics-gynecology.

Now the big one, dress code
THe Qu'ran does not in any way say a woman has to wear a complete veil (Hijab), this was proposed by the books of Hadish and Sunna (written by scholars rather than in the qu'ran).
Here are the rules for women, i paraphrased a bit to make it a bit easier to read so some of this isn't direct quotes;

Spoiler

First Rule:
"O children of Adam, we have provided you with garments to cover your bodies, as well as for luxury. But the best garment is the garment of righteousness. These are some of GOD's signs, that they may take heed."

Second Rule:
This is where the disagreements happen, the term Hijab strictly translated means "veil or yashmak", but the word also means covering, screen, divider.
It is never used in the sense of the modern conception of the HIjab which is a full veil/covering.

"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, (with their Khimar) and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed." 24:31 Khalifa's translation.

Note: a Khalifa is a covering/'curtain'/cloack

The whole full length dress thing came about because of this quote

"O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall LENGTHEN their garments. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

Now it says nowhere that women HAVE to cover themselves entierly

Now thats alot of text!,
there are basically only 3 principle rules regarding womens dress;
(1) The BEST garment is the garment of righteousness.

(2) Whenever you dress , cover your chest (bosoms).

(3) Lengthen your garment if the circumstances require it

 

[Chronictank]

Well i have to say im still not impressed. According to this the Quran still tells you to wage war against non muslims but it doesnt sanction the killing of innocent civilians. If another country is not a muslim country they are supposed to attack it. (As long as they dont slaughter civilians) Am i right?

Doesnt sound so peacefull to me.

Would still like to know what the Quran says about the things i listed in the previous post.

No it doesnt at all, it says nothing about waging war against non-muslims
it refers to people who act in aggression as non-muslims (Pagans, which in the classical sense referred to "not belonging any of the main religions in the world", not the Pagan religion), as by doing so they cannot be clasified as such.
All of the above was done in relation to 'defending' themselves againt percecution and aggression which is what i tried to put across with the British soldier example

 

[Ezteq]

just a wee example of people taking and manipulating the racism card that happened here in bournemouth at tesco on friday night (yes, its how i spent my friday...woo...go ez)

you know in the evenings when they put out the reduced food? and usually everyone swarms in on them like night of the living dead all mumbling "reduceeeed fooood!" instead of "Braaaains!" well they were just doing this and i sent B2 in to see if anything good was on offer (he's tall so can see what good stuff theyre putting out better than i can) and they had a stack of pizzas ready to reduce.

An indian bloke strarted asking the girl who was putting the food out how much the pizzas were going for and if she could reduce them now so he could take one, she explained that hermanager had told her not to put the pizzas out until last so she was marking everything else and putting it out. The guy totally went off on one and started yelling "this is because i am indian right?? im sick of this descrimination its because im indian that you wont reduce the food i want!!" we thought he was taking the piss and doing an ali g to start with but when he started turning red (and for an indian that no mean feat) we realised he was actually serious.

so people have learned that by accusing someone of being racist whenever they dont give in to them they will be cow towed to, much the same as whenever a pro left supporter is in a debate with someone who disagrees with them they generally call the other person a nazi in the hope of shaming them in to agreeing with them immediately.

people like this do not earn my respect or make me "feel for them and their situation" instead i just want to shoot them in the eyeball with an elephant gun and rid the world of just another disgusting example of parasitic vermin. Its people like this who give innocent (and genuinely discriminated) people a bad name and its their fault the innocent people have to fight their way through life.


*wipes brow*

cor.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Well first of all thank you for these thorough answers chronic. You've given me a lot of new information. For example the womens rights thing was completely new to me.

If your still willing to explain some things then i have a couple of more questions. First of all, can you explain the whole jihad thing? Some say its a spiritual thing and some say its flying planes in to buildings. The truth is?

Does the Quran say anything about racial equality? And does it tell you to kill gays etc? (wont make an issue of it, just curious ;>)


And actually im not all that against the whole covering ones body thing. If i have to choose between the Islamic dress code and 13 year olds walking around in miniskirts i know what i'll pick.

 

[Chronictank]

will have a go later int he evening/tomorow as i am off out
Figured i would get feedback from the womens rights thing first before moving on as it gets a bit confusing when things are all intermingled

 

[Lamp]

Chronic, do you teach / are you a scholar of the Quoran ? Or is it something you've researched for a university dissertation ?

 

[Gorbachioo]

I think its obvious that the guy in the video is confusing arabic culture and Islam which is what most people do. Although i still do think that the points he makes are good. Even if some of the things he critizises are arab culture, not Islam.

 

[Chronictank]

Chronic, do you teach / are you a scholar of the Quoran ? Or is it something you've researched for a university dissertation ?

good god no, i dont have the patience to dig through volume after volume of stuff, and have never found it particularly easy to pick up arabic

I did do a thing about the validity of religious texts for RE in school, We had an awesome teacher who kept an open mind and encouraged productive thought rather than learn reams of text, while lost on most (as we generally have other priorities) i loved the subject. For my final paper i made up a religion called eggism, drawing similarities of life to that of a egg then validifying them against theories and philosophies of other religions. i doubt many other teachers would have given the time of day, but she gave me an A and it was rather self satisfying that she thanked me for thinking about things rather than regurgatating stuff from a book. I think that was the starting point really, rest is just self-interest.

I have always wondered about things when my mind idles which generally prompt me to go find out about them. I regard myself as very fortunate as my parents didn't force any religion or faith on me. When i was 18 my dad said it was up to me how i went about things, he had taught me what he thought was the way (Islam) i should live my life but ultimately it was my choice whether i carried on the faith or not. So that kind of regurgitated the want to research into it

Thats the beauty of religion, there is just so much content out there with no real time pressure to explore it, and also gives you a meaningful excuse to go visit places.
For example i went to visit the Mosque's in Istanbul a couple of years ago,

 

[crispy]

just a wee example of people taking and manipulating the racism card that happened here in bournemouth at tesco on friday night (yes, its how i spent my friday...woo...go ez)

you know in the evenings when they put out the reduced food? and usually everyone swarms in on them like night of the living dead all mumbling "reduceeeed fooood!" instead of "Braaaains!" well they were just doing this and i sent B2 in to see if anything good was on offer (he's tall so can see what good stuff theyre putting out better than i can) and they had a stack of pizzas ready to reduce.

An indian bloke strarted asking the girl who was putting the food out how much the pizzas were going for and if she could reduce them now so he could take one, she explained that hermanager had told her not to put the pizzas out until last so she was marking everything else and putting it out. The guy totally went off on one and started yelling "this is because i am indian right?? im sick of this descrimination its because im indian that you wont reduce the food i want!!" we thought he was taking the piss and doing an ali g to start with but when he started turning red (and for an indian that no mean feat) we realised he was actually serious.

so people have learned that by accusing someone of being racist whenever they dont give in to them they will be cow towed to, much the same as whenever a pro left supporter is in a debate with someone who disagrees with them they generally call the other person a nazi in the hope of shaming them in to agreeing with them immediately.

people like this do not earn my respect or make me "feel for them and their situation" instead i just want to shoot them in the eyeball with an elephant gun and rid the world of just another disgusting example of parasitic vermin. Its people like this who give innocent (and genuinely discriminated) people a bad name and its their fault the innocent people have to fight their way through life.


*wipes brow*

cor.

A friend told me about a similar incident, he's got a black friend and after a night of partying he went to the mac for some fat and salt, but it was closed. Still people in there buying i think, but then a (white) guy shows up and gets in. The first thing he thinks is RACISM! ARRRRR so he start shouting and throwing stuff around outside till the police comes... You might think he was in his right to get angry like that, but the problem is that the guy who entered was an employee

 

[Lamp]

good god no, i dont have the patience to dig through volume after volume of stuff, and have never found it particularly easy to pick up arabic

I did do a thing about the validity of religious texts for RE in school, We had an awesome teacher who kept an open mind and encouraged productive thought rather than learn reams of text, while lost on most (as we generally have other priorities) i loved the subject. For my final paper i made up a religion called eggism, drawing similarities of life to that of a egg then validifying them against theories and philosophies of other religions. i doubt many other teachers would have given the time of day, but she gave me an A and it was rather self satisfying that she thanked me for thinking about things rather than regurgatating stuff from a book. I think that was the starting point really, rest is just self-interest.

I have always wondered about things when my mind idles which generally prompt me to go find out about them. I regard myself as very fortunate as my parents didn't force any religion or faith on me. When i was 18 my dad said it was up to me how i went about things, he had taught me what he thought was the way (Islam) i should live my life but ultimately it was my choice whether i carried on the faith or not. So that kind of regurgitated the want to research into it

Thats the beauty of religion, there is just so much content out there with no real time pressure to explore it, and also gives you a meaningful excuse to go visit places.
For example i went to visit the Mosque's in Istanbul a couple of years ago,

Are you a practising Muslim may I ask ?

 

[Chronictank]

Are you a practising Muslim may I ask ?

yeah i guess so, i like the theory behind it but dont really do all the praying and stuff as i was never really into meditation