Politics Coronavirus

[Embattle]

I'm gonna need more popcorn.

You'll need a dump truck load of it, Scouse is on his usual sanctimonious roll

 

[Bodhi]

Yep. But it won't stop @Bodhi pointing at the rest of the world as an excuse.

If you've done a shit thing, you're still responsible for it.

OK. So for at least 4 years you've been wanking yourself into a righteous fury about how we don't listen to the science enough. Now HMGov are following the science you are suggesting they should have ignored it and done what some fake intellectual on a Internet forum suggests instead?

I choose my words wisely here....

Fuck off.

 

[Talivar]

The issue isnt about them following the science as thats something most want them to do, the issue is the fact many dont trust they would follow anyone apart from their own ideas and plans, it was not too long ago they wanted to sacrifice many of us with the Herd Mentality plan, even at that point they said they was following the science so did the science change or the scientists or maybe was it the fact the country reacted extremley negativley to the idea

 

[DaGaffer]

So how the fuck can you blame the Government? The people that didn't follow the advice are to blame.

UKGov was at least two weeks' late in forming an appropriate response and was allowing ideologues like Cummings to formulate policy ("Herd Immunity" etc.) rather than the advice of medical professionals. And its still under-testing. The actions of government have almost certainly lead to the deaths of a lot more people than people visiting their holiday homes.

I'm quite amused by "now is not the time" arguments because lets be honest, this could all end in a few months time with the UK having the highest death rate in Europe (the trend is not looking great right now) and there will be a hatful of public inquiries and a decade later a report will come out and nobody will be brought to book. When are British governments ever held to account? (Chilcot Report anyone?) Especially ones with comfortable Parliamentary majorities? Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

So on the one hand, if we lived in a just universe Boris and Dominic Cummings would rotting in a cell soon on (at least) accessory to manslaughter charges, but such a thing will never, ever happen and @Scouse is just giving himself an ulcer. But...he's also not wrong. Not that it matters.

 

[caLLous]

OK. So for at least 4 years you've been wanking yourself into a righteous fury about how we don't listen to the science enough. Now HMGov are following the science you are suggesting they should have ignored it and done what some fake intellectual on a Internet forum suggests instead?

I choose my words wisely here....

Fuck off.

The science that lasted all of a week before being discarded in favour of new science which was coincidentally the same science that everybody else (largely) had been following since they decided to take action. They lost at least a week (probably closer to 2) going down the wrong path.

Dominic Cummings

Last seen self-isolating with "coronavirus symptoms" on March 30th...

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Are these scientists not employed by Cummings the government?

 

[DaGaffer]

Are these scientists not employed by Cummings the government?

No, they're employed by the State. They're civil servants, who are not government employees.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

No, they're employed by the State. They're civil servants, who are not government employees.

Hired by them though.

 

[Embattle]

How Europe failed the coronavirus test

 

[DaGaffer]

Hired by them though.

No. Approved, not hired, and not on Government payroll. In the US that would be the case, but not in the UK.

 

[Scouse]

@Scouse is just giving himself an ulcer. But...he's also not wrong. Not that it matters.

Yeah, I know. And I (now) live in a place that has gifted me an astonishing level of mental calm. Should have been moved here years ago

It's the shut the fuck up and pretend that it's all nice and keep calm carry on ignoring government incompetence that seems to be pervading the (tory voting) members of this forum that bemuses me.

Especially on a discussion forum. Where, you know, you talk about what shit idiots are doing.

BTW @Bodhi. No. They didn't follow it. Clearly. Not even the science that experts had been screaming about for ages. Or more people would be alive right now.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

No. Approved, not hired

Same same tbh.

 

[Deebs]

Yeah, I know. And I (now) live in a place that has gifted me an astonishing level of mental calm. Should have been moved here years ago

It's the shut the fuck up and pretend that it's all nice and keep calm carry on ignoring government incompetence that seems to be pervading the (tory voting) members of this forum that bemuses me.

Especially on a discussion forum. Where, you know, you talk about what shit idiots are doing.

BTW @Bodhi. No. They didn't follow it. Clearly. Not even the science that experts had been screaming about for ages. Or more people would be alive right now.

Governments have been incompetent for generations in the past and will continue to be for generations in the future. The following is from the 8th April and I hope to see updated data but it shows a very different picture to what you are painting.

Coronavirus deaths per million by country 2020 | Statista

People are screaming about lack of PPE, so the Governments of the world increase their buying. Then what happens, it is all fucking faulty but hey that is the Government's fault and not the manufacturer. Drugs worldwide are running out, again Government's fault. NHS building overnight was broken into and PPE equipment stolen, again Government's fault. The weather has turned colder today, again Government's fault. Every fucking thing is the Government's fault at this time. So much negativity and false MSM reporting for my liking.

China imposes more checks on mask exports to ensure quality control

 

[DaGaffer]

Same same tbh.

No, it's not the same at all. For example I work for a bank and we're about to get a new CEO, but whoever the bank chooses still has to be approved by the regulator (Central Bank). That doesn't mean the Central Bank had anything to do with choosing them or employing them.

 

[Yoni]

Governments have been incompetent for generations in the past and will continue to be for generations in the future. The following is from the 8th April and I hope to see updated data but it shows a very different picture to what you are painting.

Coronavirus deaths per million by country 2020 | Statista

The statista numbers seem to be out of date compared with worldometers which show a similar outcome just more up to date > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

 

[Deebs]

The statista numbers seem to be out of date compared with worldometers which show a similar outcome just more up to date > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

View attachment 41380

Yeh I did mention in my post that I hope to see updated data as the data is from the 8th April.

 

[caLLous]

 

[Deebs]

One thing that keeps coming into my mind is the amount of wasted money in the NHS. I do not believe there is the correct level of management, empowerment and obviously doctors and nurses. Personally I believe that due to being funded by the taxpayer there is a mentality among some of the senior management that there is a money tree and after this pandemic will always be and so will continue to waste money.

Now when my Mum was alive she spent a great deal of time in hospitals due to various illnesses and operations. She also chose to go to a Military hospital for either the birth of her 4 children or her numerous operations. During those such times we obviously visited her and some of the things you notice about a Military hospital are:

1. Everyone had a uniform based on rank
2. It was constantly being cleaned
3. It was run like a military base so didn't look chaotic or messy
   
4. Everything was accounted for
5. You certainly didn't make undue noise as if you did then you would get a stern talking to (I remember when my son was born and I got a little agitated during the delivery so I was escorted off the premises to calm down)

Unfortunately the Military do not run hospitals in the UK anymore (since 1995) but they do run Ministry of Defence Hospital Units inside NHS hospitals (one of which is Frimley Park with an outstanding rating). I wonder if there would be a cost/efficiency benefit to the NHS/taxpayer in allowing more of these Units and getting the Military to take a more active role?

I believe that the NHS needs reform more than it needs money though I am happy to pay more tax as long it is a law ring-fenced tax where the money can only go to the NHS and not anything else.

 

[SilverHood]

Good article on the NY Post (usually nothing but sensationalist garbage) about the curve flattening. Even if Trump re-opens the country tomorrow, no way on earth am I going anywhere with public crowds, and I'm certainly not going to avoid the subway and busses for the next few months:
https://nypost.com/2020/04/12/it-wasnt-government-that-flattened-the-curve-it-was-you-me/

Went for a food shop just now. Shelves are mostly full again, except for cleaning products, toilet paper and paper towels. Some of the more niche items that only exist for sale in affluent areas were also missing, the suppliers having shut down. Some off brand stuff too, noticed the frozen veggies look like they're from the mid west. Barry's tea was back in stock, so a successful trip

 

[Scouse]

Unfortunately the Military do not run hospitals in the UK anymore

Thank fuck.

What you describe sounds like an authoritarian morgue rather than somewhere civilians go to get well!

We spend the second lowest in the G7 but about median for OECD members. But if you look at outcomes from coronavirus from Germany vs United States vs UK (what we can anyway) there's an argument to see about which model gets most bang for buck.

The problem is the bang-for-buck issue is some countries do vastly better than others. So the metrics themselves need to be measured by experts, not members of the public. Which leads to a level of opacity that's unpalatable.

Anyway. I'm just waffling - I'm always dumb after a bike ride. This is interesting tho

 

[Embattle]

Anyway. I'm just waffling - I'm always dumb after a bike ride.

Why limit it to just after a bike ride

Some monumental dumb asses - Eamonn Holmes under fire over 5G comments

 

[Scouse]

Some monumental dumb asses - Eamonn Holmes under fire over 5G comments

Thing is - I don't think he was endorsing anything. He clearly stated he agreed with the scientist but said mainstream media sources aren't to be trusted as arbiters of truth.

MSM has then twisted this reasonable position into "Eamonn Holmes believes 5G conspiracy theories" - thus proving that Eamonn was right that MSM isn't to be trusted.

The MSM seems more interested in 'correct messaging' rather than representation of unbiased truth.

 

[Wij]

Thing is - I don't think he was endorsing anything. He clearly stated he agreed with the scientist but said mainstream media sources aren't to be trusted as arbiters of truth.

MSM has then twisted this reasonable position into "Eamonn Holmes believes 5G conspiracy theories" - thus proving that Eamonn was right that MSM isn't to be trusted.

The MSM seems more interested in 'correct messaging' rather than representation of unbiased truth.

Frankly I think anyone who uses the expression mainstream media or MSM needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Don’t expect to be taken seriously when you use the same expressions as David Icke.

 

[caLLous]

It'd be helpful to see whatever happened before he started recording but I've seen loads of clips of the police being pricks since the lockdown.

 

[Scouse]

Frankly I think anyone who uses the expression mainstream media or MSM needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Don’t expect to be taken seriously when you use the same expressions as David Icke.

Oh ffs. Should I just use "media" then?

To be clear: non-mainstream media is a shitshow of opinion. I don't sit on facebook or twitter (like yourself @Wij) - or inundate myself with opinion pieces from all over the web.

Because of this my news consumption is absolutely from "mainstream" sources.

However, what I said above about "correct messaging" rather than truth often stands. This 5G bullshit - we all know the message needs to be out there to stop eejits trashing telecoms equipment.

What *shouldn't* happen is the beeb and the grauniad (and wherever else) misrepresenting what someone said to maintain that message. But they do - and it's common as fuck.

Now whether it's deliberate, or whether it's just because journalists and their editors are thick as a box of frogs and can't comprehend stuff, I don't know. But the above stands.

But bollocks to being given grief over the use of the term mainstream media to discuss the mainstream media. If you've a politically-correct @Wij and @MYstIC G -stamped term we have to use on FH, let me know what it is. Then we can address the actual argument like adults...

 

[MYstIC G]

Oh ffs. Should I just use "media" then?

To be clear: non-mainstream media is a shitshow of opinion. I don't sit on facebook or twitter (like yourself @Wij) - or inundate myself with opinion pieces from all over the web.

Because of this my news consumption is absolutely from "mainstream" sources.

However, what I said above about "correct messaging" rather than truth often stands. This 5G bullshit - we all know the message needs to be out there to stop eejits trashing telecoms equipment.

What *shouldn't* happen is the beeb and the grauniad (and wherever else) misrepresenting what someone said to maintain that message. But they do - and it's common as fuck.

Now whether it's deliberate, or whether it's just because journalists and their editors are thick as a box of frogs and can't comprehend stuff, I don't know. But the above stands.

But bollocks to being given grief over the use of the term mainstream media to discuss the mainstream media. If you've a politically-correct @Wij and @MYstIC G -stamped term we have to use on FH, let me know what it is. Then we can address the actual argument like adults...

Nowt so complicated. Holmes is an idiot, hence facepalm.

 

[Wij]

If Holmes remembered that he’s supposed to be a journalist then the job of journalism is to find out the actual truth and tell the public. Not to give all sides equal time and say ‘We dunno.’ The BBC as a prime example of the ‘mainstream media’ in this case did that. They consulted scientists in relevant fields and those scientists said that its bollocks. Why is Holmes saying THEY DON’T KNOW. The media did it’s journalism job (for once). They found out the truth and said it. That IS their job. They aren’t misrepresenting him. He is misrepresenting them.

Slagging off ‘MSM’ is lazily tarring all kinds of different organisations with the same brush. Usually because they all disagree with you which may well be because you are wrong.

When he started going off about them serving the states interests, because that’s what they all do right, it was well into tin foil territory.

 

[Scouse]

Nowt so complicated. Holmes is an idiot, hence facepalm.

I actually agree - always thought he was.

I also agree he ventured a little into tin foil hattery in his commentary on serving the state.

If Holmes remembered that he’s supposed to be a journalist then the job of journalism is to find out the actual truth and tell the public. Not to give all sides equal time and say ‘We dunno.’ The BBC as a prime example of the ‘mainstream media’ in this case did that. They consulted scientists in relevant fields and those scientists said that its bollocks. Why is Holmes saying THEY DON’T KNOW. The media did it’s journalism job (for once).

I also think this is true and that they've done their job - checked with the scientists and put that message out there.

However, they've been vilifying him for endorsing the 5G shit. When I don't think he's done that.

I read it this way: he's a bit of a poorly-informed knuckle dragger who's gone off-message saying "On principle I don't think the media is in a position to dismiss things out of hand." Which is a good principle, but in his position as a broadcaster he should have known / been briefed better on this subject.

So, yeah. He got it wrong - but the spin that he's endorsing / supporting is a crock. (And the media knows it).


Edit: I don't know why I'm posting on it really. He doesn't mean dick to me - and, in fact, neither does the fact that asshats are beating up 5G towers. In the end, he's well paid and a bit of heat followed by a load of stories about how big a twat he is means that the "look you fuckers - 5G is nothing to do with coronavirus" story gets more coverage that asshats might see...

 

[DaGaffer]

I actually agree - always thought he was.

I also agree he ventured a little into tin foil hattery in his commentary on serving the state.

I also think this is true and that they've done their job - checked with the scientists and put that message out there.

However, they've been vilifying him for endorsing the 5G shit. When I don't think he's done that.

I read it this way: he's a bit of a poorly-informed knuckle dragger who's gone off-message saying "On principle I don't think the media is in a position to dismiss things out of hand." Which is a good principle, but in his position as a broadcaster he should have known / been briefed better on this subject.

So, yeah. He got it wrong - but the spin that he's endorsing / supporting is a crock. (And the media knows it).


Edit: I don't know why I'm posting on it really. He doesn't mean dick to me - and, in fact, neither does the fact that asshats are beating up 5G towers. In the end, he's well paid and a bit of heat followed by a load of stories about how big a twat he is means that the "look you fuckers - 5G is nothing to do with coronavirus" story gets more coverage that asshats might see...

Nah. Context is everything. He could have had a thought piece about the trustworthiness of media at any time (he has a platform to do just that), but he chose to make that point when talking about 5G, thereby making the connection between government cover-ups and 5G. Context.

 

[Embattle]

Doctor's Note: Can the coronavirus reactivate?