Politics Coronavirus

[Moriath]

A vaccine will only work if there is long term immunity from the virus. And you convince the anti vaxers to have it.

otherwise it will probably end up being a reoccurring virus for a long time to come.

 

[Bodhi]

A vaccine will only work if there is long term immunity from the virus. And you convince the anti vaxers to have it.

otherwise it will probably end up being a reoccurring virus for a long time to come.

If the vaccine doesn't cause autism I ain't interested.

Anyway considering we've never managed to create a vaccine for any of the other related Coronavirii I wouldn't hold out too much hope for one any time soon. Doesnt mean we won't be able to live with it tho, through treatments, better understanding of the virus, and yes - herd immunity.

We live with loads of nasty cold and flu bugs everyday, and soon this will just be another bug in circulation.

For now though pretty much every Western government has been caught flat-footed, with in depth plans for the wrong Pandemic (all our prep was for flu) and appalling processes around care homes - the thing is all of the Western nations appear to be learning at a pretty impressive rate - so we'll get through this.

Let's be honest though, the country that's handled this the best is Taiwan considering their location - if only the WHO hadn't ignored their warnings in December, thousands of lives could have been saved.

 

[Scouse]

Anyone care to speculate when the UK lockdown might be relaxed?

I always said June. I wonder if we can have family or friends over at the last bank holiday weekend in May.

It's going to be a weird ruleset I suspect - lots of people live very distant from family, lots of people count their friends as their family. If they try to say "local only" then it's going to be very difficult for a lot of people to resume reasonable socialisation.

 

[Talivar]

I think we will have 3 more weeks of roughly the same level of lockdown just with a few more jobs being on the essential list, then at end of may they will relax the ammount of time we can go outside for exercise ect and add more jobs to essential list. I think Schools will return on a regional basis with some not going back till september and i dont think Pubs and Cinemas ect be allowed to open for a long time apart from maybe some form of a beer garden rule, but not sure on that one.

 

[DaGaffer]

"Don't tell me how I'm feeling" is your familiar refrain.

I'm not overly emotional about this. Other than distance from family (I'm concerned for my mother who is lonely and alone with no partner and mentally and physically impaired) this whole thing has been very easy and not hugely disruptive for me.

I think your refusal to engage is intellectual cowardice Yoni. My opinion is based on these main facts:

• We've been repeatedly forewarned
• Scientists and health officials have told us exactly how we needed to prepare for this
• Our governments did not heed their advice and take basic planning action
• People are dying in the thousands because of that

The above facts are unarguable. Given the above, the requirements of democracies to hold those responsible to account is clear - and it's down to the citizens of our countries to demand it.

Your position is in opposition to that action.

I like you Yoni. But I find your position utterly indefensible. Fine, don't explain yourself - but don't justify ignoring that argument by lying to yourself that I'm being overly emotional about this. I think you're doing this because it's not nice to blame people. But if we can't do the necessary when bodies are piling up (that's not an emotional description - it's just cold hard fact) then what chance do we have with the more urgent and, frankly, more important global crises that humanity faces.

Actually,

People are dying in the thousands because of that

is supposition. The tardy response of UKGov is certainly a factor, but the experience of Italy, and particularly Spain, who responded quickly and aggressively to the virus, but still had massive death tolls, suggests the it's not the only factor.

While Boris and co should never be given a free pass, I have a sneaking suspicion cultural and demographic factors (like in Italy the prevalence of multi-generational families in one house) will turn out to be the most significant drivers of varying infection and death rates, and each country, or even region within countries, will have it's own drivers of infection.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Actually,

People are dying in the thousands because of that

is supposition. The tardy response of UKGov is certainly a factor, but the experience of Italy, and particularly Spain, who responded quickly and aggressively to the virus, but still had massive death tolls, suggests the it's not the only factor.

While Boris and co should never be given a free pass, I have a sneaking suspicion cultural and demographic factors (like in Italy the prevalence of multi-generational families in one house) will turn out to be the most significant drivers of varying infection and death rates, and each country, or even region within countries, will have it's own drivers of infection.

Family is very important here too. Either Gran lives with the rest of the family or they visit regularly. Our Spanish neighbours have divided the house into two, so gran and grandad effectively live in the same house. They have several grandkids and tomorrow is mother's day, I'll bet there are visitors, against the rules. It has to be a factor.

 

[Job]

Covid will not stop until we are all infected or we produce a very effective vaccine.

It will kill who it will kill.
Reducing first wave infections is merely putting off the inevitable.
The stats are just death porn.
All we have done is destroy our economies and sent millions more to early deaths from undiagnosed and untreated illness while spreading depression and hopelessness across the globe.
Businesses destroyed, pensions obliterated, families strained, savings sucked dry.

We hopefuly will never be so stupid again.

 

[gunner440]

Today is the first day we are allowed out of our houses for a walk or sports, jogging, cycling etc. There are strict time slots if your municipality has more than 5000 inhabitants (ours doesn't) but people are dumb. This is @gunner440 's neck of the woods

Police swamp in at 10.05 AM and start making arrests and issuing fines on Spain's Costa del Sol - Euro Weekly News Spain Spain News Article

Everyone was given clear instructions. They're trying to play dumb and blame everything but themselves for being out past the cut-off. It's good where I am and not crowded at all but pretty much everyone head towards the beach considering the weathe today (26º).

I'm glad they're fining those that are taking the piss.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Everyone was given clear instructions. They're trying to play dumb and blame everything but themselves for being out past the cut-off. It's good where I am and not crowded at all but pretty much everyone head towards the beach considering the weathe today (26º).

I'm glad they're fining those that are taking the piss.

Yup, Policia keeping us safe. Don't know what the weather has been like down there but pretty much crap since the lock down here. We were still using the log burner 4 days ago. Then yesterday it was like a switch got flicked. Hot yesterday, and today 29 here.
On our walk out towards the village we saw one person, going to her buzon. Apparently in town though it was mayhem, mother's day I guess. Quite a few oldies here and I think they are just glad to be alive and happy to follow the rules. Spoke with the local bar owner as he walked past our house and he is not going to open until the end of May, he could sooner on the outside terrace, but think he's nervous.

 

[Scouse]

Actually,

People are dying in the thousands because of that

is supposition. The tardy response of UKGov is certainly a factor, but the experience of Italy, and particularly Spain, who responded quickly and aggressively to the virus, but still had massive death tolls, suggests the it's not the only factor.

While Boris and co should never be given a free pass, I have a sneaking suspicion cultural and demographic factors (like in Italy the prevalence of multi-generational families in one house) will turn out to be the most significant drivers of varying infection and death rates, and each country, or even region within countries, will have it's own drivers of infection.

The experience of Italy and Spain are the experiences of countries that didn't lockdown, test test test and contact trace because they, like us, hadn't prepared properly and put the relevant emergency plans and infrastructure in place for such an inevitability.

The ones that were prepared (South Korea being my particularly oft-used example) haven't suffered needlessly.

Other than the unacceptable lag in lockdown decision making I don't think the government has done a bad job in managing the circumstances as they are.

However, if they'd done the job they should have done years ago then the story would likely have been very different.

 

[Job]

Jesus...reading the Guards attempt to put faces to care home deaths makes you realise many are forgotten by their relatives and basically sent to die as their minds failed ...covid was a frickin blessing.

Parents, grandparents, boxers, singers: care home residents who have died from Covid-19

 

[gunner440]

Seeing as we're now allowed out at certain times of the day (depending on age group) I figured I'd do a round of the area. It was crazy to see the roads and boardwalks empty. Awesome!

@~Yuckfou~ 's area is more rural though I think. I live in the suburbs.

 

[DaGaffer]

The experience of Italy and Spain are the experiences of countries that didn't lockdown, test test test and contact trace because they, like us, hadn't prepared properly and put the relevant emergency plans and infrastructure in place for such an inevitability.

The ones that were prepared (South Korea being my particularly oft-used example) haven't suffered needlessly.

Other than the unacceptable lag in lockdown decision making I don't think the government has done a bad job in managing the circumstances as they are.

However, if they'd done the job they should have done years ago then the story would likely have been very different.

"Countries like South Korea". You mean, just South Korea, a sample of one. A country that went through SARS and MERS so had infrastructure developed for a reason. A country where people wear face masks in public and in shops as routine because of previous diseases?

Every other country's stats and experience tells us nothing informative at this stage. Look at Germany and France, identical infection rates but France has twice the deaths of Germany. Does that mean France's hospitals are twice as crap as Germany's? I somehow doubt that.

Even arguments about contact tracing are glib when Britain has vastly higher travel inflows and outflows than South Korea. You just can't compare off the cuff.

 

[Talivar]

New Zealand is a good example, they dealt with it extremley well because they did not wait, they did not have a period of just sing happy birthday and wash your hands, or a lets wait and see what happens. They listened to the warnings and closed down lright away.
In regards to UK Government i think we need to break it down int 3sections, Pre Covid, Start of Covid and During Covid.
For me the Government mainly and massivly failed pre Covid with constant cuts to public services. You can argue NHS has too much bloat and too many middle managers but why not cut there then instead of block frontline Nurses pay rises ect. Wont even go into the fact of how Boris and friends even celebrated actions like that!
Star of Covid they was way too slow, as i said earlier our initial strategy was ignore WHO and sing happy Birthday while possibly waiting for us to die from herd immunity.
During Covid though like Scouse i dont think they have done a bad job and things like number of tests per day really doesnt bother me. Infact in this instance it is Labour being childish as they nit pick. And this is whats wrong with the UK and its politics. Boris and co didnt cheer because they hate nurses and wanted their pay stopped, they cheered because they are children and had got one up on Labour, likewise with how Labour now are picking at number of tests, they dont care it is just a chance to score points.
Remove them all in my opinion and find a group of adults that care more about the country than some endless political point scoring game.
Rant over !

 

[Scouse]

Even arguments about contact tracing are glib when Britain has vastly higher travel inflows and outflows than South Korea. You just can't compare off the cuff.

I'm not making hard and fast fait accompli comparisons - it's frustration about the lack of preparedness.

I've made this argument multiple times now but the world had SARS, MERS and Ebola - not just south korea - and I don't accept the argument that just because we didn't experience these severely and personally that that's a valid excuse for our lack of preparedness. It cannot be allowed that we have to start dying personally before we learn lessons from an interconnected world. We had our warnings and didn't act.

That lack of preparedness is hampering our ability to deal now - apparently the UK is lagging behind most of our european counterparts in the rate of slowing of contageon. The front line? Healthcare workers are where the majority of this is coming, and guess what they lack, due to our lack of preparedness.

Yes, the gvt. is doing the right things now - but doing the right things in a rush to put out a fire with poor equipment is no substitute to funding a fire service, installing sprinklers, ensuring your building regs are up to spec and buying PPE in advance of an inevitable disaster.

 

[Talivar]

I am interested to see if people now feel frontline public services deserve a payrise?

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm not making hard and fast fait accompli comparisons - it's frustration about the lack of preparedness.

I've made this argument multiple times now but the world had SARS, MERS and Ebola - not just south korea - and I don't accept the argument that just because we didn't experience these severely and personally that that's a valid excuse for our lack of preparedness. It cannot be allowed that we have to start dying personally before we learn lessons from an interconnected world. We had our warnings and didn't act.

That lack of preparedness is hampering our ability to deal now - apparently the UK is lagging behind most of our european counterparts in the rate of slowing of contageon. The front line? Healthcare workers are where the majority of this is coming, and guess what they lack, due to our lack of preparedness.

Yes, the gvt. is doing the right things now - but doing the right things in a rush to put out a fire with poor equipment is no substitute to funding a fire service, installing sprinklers, ensuring your building regs are up to spec and buying PPE in advance of an inevitable disaster.

There were four SARS cases in the UK.

As for the UK lagging behind other European countries, map for population density and you'd get a different story. This is exactly what's so dangerous about country v country comparisons; there are large parts of the UK with no cases, just like lots other countries, but then you also have some low pop density outliers (County Cavan in Ireland for example) which may end up being because of unique social factors or an above average cluster of care homes or OAPs. There's not enough information to make sweeping country generalisations, and bluntly there are also a lot of countries under-reporting or outright lying.

 

[dysfunction]

"Countries like South Korea". You mean, just South Korea, a sample of one. A country that went through SARS and MERS so had infrastructure developed for a reason. A country where people wear face masks in public and in shops as routine because of previous diseases?

Every other country's stats and experience tells us nothing informative at this stage. Look at Germany and France, identical infection rates but France has twice the deaths of Germany. Does that mean France's hospitals are twice as crap as Germany's? I somehow doubt that.

Even arguments about contact tracing are glib when Britain has vastly higher travel inflows and outflows than South Korea. You just can't compare off the cuff.

South Africa has done remarkably well.
South Africa's ruthlessly efficient fight against coronavirus
Exercising the freedom to jog in South Africa

They had a severe lockdown measures
- ban on alcohol and cigarette sales
- Night Curfews
- very limited daytime movements

 

[caLLous]

Vietnam, too. Quite a few countries have quietly done well.

 

[DaGaffer]

South Africa has done remarkably well.
South Africa's ruthlessly efficient fight against coronavirus
Exercising the freedom to jog in South Africa

They had a severe lockdown measures

Has it? Or is it just (lack of) testing/reporting? I'm dubious about anything that comes out of the mouths of South African politicians, especially about health.

 

[dysfunction]

Has it? Or is it just (lack of) testing/reporting? I'm dubious about anything that comes out of the mouths of South African politicians, especially about health.

Yes it's possible I guess but I think it's been verified.

They did have massive amount of testing.
All geared up due to Aids/HIV testing in rural/township areas.

 

[Job]

Only a vaccine will save lives.

 

[Job]

After riots in Paris, the smoke is clearing over the city

 

[Moriath]

I think we should have take aways like this as well

Food 2 Go-Go: Oregon strip club brings burlesque to coronavirus carry-out

 

[Job]

View: https://streamable.com/h3aiw1

 

[Job]

Nobel prize-winning scientist: the Covid-19 epidemic was never exponential - The Post

 

[Job]

View: https://streamable.com/xjglp1

 

[~Yuckfou~]

 

[Scouse]

There were four SARS cases in the UK.

So????

I'll say/ask it again - it's totally unacceptable to have as much and as loud a forewarning of an inevitability, and do nothing about it, no?

As for the UK lagging behind other European countries, map for population density and you'd get a different story. This is exactly what's so dangerous about country v country comparisons; there are large parts of the UK with no cases, just like lots other countries, but then you also have some low pop density outliers (County Cavan in Ireland for example) which may end up being because of unique social factors or an above average cluster of care homes or OAPs. There's not enough information to make sweeping country generalisations, and bluntly there are also a lot of countries under-reporting or outright lying.

Whilst I was only commenting on what's been reported I don't have much to disagree with here (apart from it, again, is not really about the problem of our lack of preparedness - which is clearly what I've a bee in the bonnet about)

 

[Yoni]

If this report is correct then sadly no one could have done enough preparation.... it states that a patient tested positive end of December in Paris.
Uppgift: Patient i Frankrike testades positivt redan i december
PARIS. Chefen på intensivvårdsavdelningen på ett sjukhus i Parisförorten Seine-Saint-Denis uppger att hans personal hittat ett prov från en patient som gjordes den 27 december och som nu ger positivt utslag för covid-19. Yves Cohen, som läkaren heter, säger till tv-kanalen BFM att det rör sig om ett gammalt influensaprov som påträffats när man börjat gå igenom prover från december och januari.
– Detta kan vara patient noll i Frankrike. Men det är fullt möjligt att det kan finnas fler i andra regioner. Vi måste nu gå igenom alla gamla negativa PCR-tester på patienter med lunginflammation, för viruset var troligen i omlopp då, säger Yves Cohen till BFM.

This subscribes to @Bodhi's theory who believes he may have had he virus in NL at a similar time.