Politics Coronavirus

[caLLous]

What i hope comes out of this is that Europe set up better testing systems for pandemics - which is the process S Korea went through after Mers. If all countries in Europe can learn this lession then all the terrible loss will not have been for nothing.

I'm sure they will, I'm sure everybody will. Nothing like this has happened on such a scale in over a century so no government was prepared for it but now they know it *can* happen, nobody is going to want to get caught with their pants down in the future.

 

[Yoni]

I'm specifically talking about the UK gov changing how they count tests in order to spin numbers so it seems like they have tested more people than they actually have. If Hancock had said "look we're up to ~80k actual tests a day, we're not going to meet our target but we're getting there" that would've been something but instead they went to great lengths to fudge the numbers to make it seem like they had. It's dishonest and unconstructive.

Don't you think that what is important is that they ARE testing more now - big fucking deal if they are testing 80k rather than 100k - it is politics. What is important is that they are testing more than they were and hopefully the UK can start to control their situation.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I absolutely know that but as I have said earlier you are so UK focussed living in your very safe village in Spain... I have been looking for reflection from expats for weeks realistic pictures of life and what the governments or health officials could have done better, but there is none because the countries you live in are so perfect oO - seriously why can you not see what I am saying.

Yes the UK fucked up and could have done many things better however you do not know if any other party could have managed the situation better than it is being done today. Even if Labour / Libs had come to power in 2015 I do not believe the situation would be any different than it is today.

What i hope comes out of this is that Europe set up better testing systems for pandemics - which is the process S Korea went through after Mers. If all countries in Europe can learn this lession then all the terrible loss will not have been for nothing.

I've explained before why I'm very interested in the UK government's cock ups, 2 sick relatives. Also last time I checked this is a primarily UK forum were the UK government is being discussed.
I'm sure there have been cock ups here. However when PPE was running out they made their own. The lock down has been much safer. So I feel safer and the effects are now showing with some relaxation, even though the UK recorded its first case before us.
The UK looks set to overtake our death toll, maybe even our percapita, 280 deaths here last 24 hours. Zero deaths here in the whole of Almería province since Tuesday as of last night.
Has Spain fucked up? Undoubtedly, but nowhere near to the degree the UK has.
As @caLLous points out the UK citizens are being lied to as I've pointed out on numerous occasions.
As for feeling patriotic, nope fucking hate the country.

 

[caLLous]

Don't you think that what is important is that they ARE testing more now - big fucking deal if they are testing 80k rather than 100k - it is politics. What is important is that they are testing more than they were and hopefully the UK can start to control their situation.

I said in the first post that it's great that they're testing more, so they themselves should emphasise the positives rather than making up numbers to make it seem like they're doing even better. The only reason they went to such lengths was because Hancock missed the original target of 25k per day so he set a target of 100k per day and they were desperate to make it seem like they'd done it, by whatever means necessary.

Who knows, if they hadn't wasted so many man hours desperately spinning the numbers, maybe they'd have done more actual tests.

 

[Yoni]

As most countries leaders and health officials have been stating it is unwise to compare outcomes at this time because we are far from the end. A good example of how Spain isn't being totally honest is that it is not including deaths outside of hospitals.

I am happy that your region is faring well but in Madrid / Barcelona not so much and if I am honest I wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops about how awesome everything is in a country just yet... this is a super long road and Europe are bearly a km (0,62mi) down it.

We will see how many wasted lives this virus has caused once all deaths have been tallied and compared against reasonable averages for each country. (this will include deaths from undiagnosed diseases / delayed treatments / poverty / deaths not counted in the official numbers) and suicides.

 

[Job]

And what exactly are they going to do with the results?

 

[Scouse]

I am really sorry I can not agree with you. No European country had the ability to test in the way S Korea had done. They already had the infrastructure before CV19 arrived.

Yes. Yes they bloody did Yoni.

They listened to the WHO and bought it. Planned for it.

We were told too, repeatedly, and did NOTHING.

It's not fucking rocket science. It's simply listening to what the experts tell you is *definitely* going to happen and preparing for it.

It disgusts me that such a sizeable proportion of the population is prepared to give clearly forewarned governments a pass over thousands of preventable deaths. Thousands of families grieving for loved ones. (One of Tam's direct reports has lost three close family members).

But don't criticise our governments?! Are you for real???

If a big corp ignores health and safety warnings that leads to an accident that kills someone the CEO can be prosecuted and imprisoned. Because of this threat they take it seriously and preventable death has been massively reduced.

Instead of attempting to hold our governments to account for a derogation of duty that has lead to colossal human suffering you're part of a group of people that is actively acting in prevention of a righteous outpouring of justified anger from a criminally failed public.

Our politicians should be in fear for their fucking lives for their abject failure in their primary duty, yet we've a health secretary laughing the WHO's "test test test" mantra on social media whilst the bodies still pile up around us by the hundreds every day.

This attitude and apologism is utterly unforgiveable.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

As most countries leaders and health officials have been stating it is unwise to compare outcomes at this time because we are far from the end. A good example of how Spain isn't being totally honest is that it is not including deaths outside of hospitals.

I am happy that your region is faring well but in Madrid / Barcelona not so much and if I am honest I wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops about how awesome everything is in a country just yet... this is a super long road and Europe are bearly a km (0,62mi) down it.

We will see how many wasted lives this virus has caused once all deaths have been tallied and compared against reasonable averages for each country. (this will include deaths from undiagnosed diseases / delayed treatments / poverty / deaths not counted in the official numbers) and suicides.

I don't expect things here to be normal until there is a vaccine, maybe next year.
You honestly think the UK Gov are being honest about the death figures? As someone said recently, I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

 

[Job]

Well no one lying about total deaths.

Are they all caused by covid?
Its a bit hard to tell when a huge chunk were teetering on the edge anyway.

 

[Yoni]

Yes. Yes they bloody did Yoni.

They listened to the WHO and bought it. Planned for it.

We were told too, repeatedly, and did NOTHING.Blah blah blah

I actually wrote a reply then deleted it because there is no point in having a discussion with you. You are not being rational and are really over emotional (which is surpising as you always used to advocate debate without emotion) - I guess it is because this virus is closer to home than other virus' have been in recent years and not just affecting "fatties"....

 

[Moriath]

To me the point over a day or so is somewhat moot, some people would of complained either way.

Still need a rapid tester in large quantities that is highly efficient.

But its only able to tell you if you have it at that point in time. This nirvana of testing only works with lock down and tight tracing controls.

It can always come back and spread unless the populous agree to privacy invasion with tracking and tracing apps. like in korea.

and i dont think that would be acceptable / work in many cultures.

 

[Yoni]

I don't expect things here to be normal until there is a vaccine, maybe next year.
You honestly think the UK Gov are being honest about the death figures? As someone said recently, I've got a bridge for sale you might be interested in.

One of my colleagues is half Spanish - her dad turned 80 in March lives alone in Spain - she finds it terrifying that should anything happen to him there is noone to help him. Luckily he has a dog so has been able to get out for a walk each day.

I think the UK can see that there is no point in not being honest as the truth will out in the end looking at excess deaths over an average. Addtionally if you are really going to get this thing under control you need to know where people are dying so you can do something about it.

 

[Talivar]

I am probably going to get flamed for this but i am starting to think that some people (in all walks of life and countries) will only REALLY care about decisions made by leaders when it is their own family or friends that fall ill or die.
We really are a strange breed who seem to struggle with the concept that we might be blindly following the orders/instructions/information provided by people who only care for themselfs. So much so that after WW2 experiements were carried out to try prove that German people must have been inheritantly evil to do what they did. All the experiements found that actually 80% + of people are sheep and do as they are told and beleive what they are told, no matter what the cost is, even if the cost is someones life.
Edit before anyone says! I am not saying Boris is on the same level as Hitler!

 

[Yoni]

I am probably going to get flamed for this but i am starting to think that some people (in all walks of life and countries) will only REALLY care about decisions made by leaders when it is their own family or friends that fall ill or die.
We really are a strange breed who seem to struggle with the concept that we might be blindly following the orders/instructions/information provided by people who only care for themselfs. So much so that after WW2 experiements were carried out to try prove that German people must have been inheritantly evil to do what they did. All the experiements found that actually 80% + of people are sheep and do as they are told and beleive what they are told, no matter what the cost is, even if the cost is someones life.

If you go back and search MERS SARS Birdflu / Swineflu - you will see how concerned people were about the threat of pandemic in recent times.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

One of my colleagues is half Spanish - her dad turned 80 in March lives alone in Spain - she finds it terrifying that should anything happen to him there is noone to help him. Luckily he has a dog so has been able to get out for a walk each day.QUOTE]

Hardly a Spanish thing if that was your point, it's a living alone thing wherever you are.
As of today though he will be able to go for a walk for an hour with or without the dog. We have just been out for an hour in the countryside together, first time Mrs Yuck has left the house since lock down. Loved seeing the smile on her face.

 

[Yoni]

no my point was she is in Sweden and her dad is in Spain. He has no family close to help him as they all live in Sweden. She would have liked to have gone so that she could get his shopping etc but sadly not able to and is facing the realisation that she will not be able to go and help during the summer either (she has a separate residence).

 

[Talivar]

In a strange way this is like the people who liive near Mount Vesuvius. Everyone knows the tale of Pompei, everyone knows how Volcanos can erupt many times and yet millions of people at this moment live close by to it still. Science tells us it can erupt at any time and is actually over due an eruption. Yet when it does finally erupt will the leaders turn around and say shit sorry guys we knew this was possible and didnt prepare or move you all, or will they say "no one could have planned for this!" "no one could have forseen this!" "this was beyond our control to plan for !" yet all the while talking about how they care for each life and will do everything they can to save as many as they can (Except move anyone else that lives close to any other active volcanos ofc)

 

[Scouse]

I actually wrote a reply then deleted it because there is no point in having a discussion with you. You are not being rational and are really over emotional (which is surpising as you always used to advocate debate without emotion) - I guess it is because this virus is closer to home than other virus' have been in recent years and not just affecting "fatties"....

"Don't tell me how I'm feeling" is your familiar refrain.

I'm not overly emotional about this. Other than distance from family (I'm concerned for my mother who is lonely and alone with no partner and mentally and physically impaired) this whole thing has been very easy and not hugely disruptive for me.

I think your refusal to engage is intellectual cowardice Yoni. My opinion is based on these main facts:

• We've been repeatedly forewarned
• Scientists and health officials have told us exactly how we needed to prepare for this
• Our governments did not heed their advice and take basic planning action
• People are dying in the thousands because of that

The above facts are unarguable. Given the above, the requirements of democracies to hold those responsible to account is clear - and it's down to the citizens of our countries to demand it.

Your position is in opposition to that action.

I like you Yoni. But I find your position utterly indefensible. Fine, don't explain yourself - but don't justify ignoring that argument by lying to yourself that I'm being overly emotional about this. I think you're doing this because it's not nice to blame people. But if we can't do the necessary when bodies are piling up (that's not an emotional description - it's just cold hard fact) then what chance do we have with the more urgent and, frankly, more important global crises that humanity faces.

 

[Scouse]

Talk about emotional btw @Yoni - @Talivar has pretty much made the same point as me in the post above, and you've agreed with it...

 

[~Yuckfou~]

no my point was she is in Sweden and her dad is in Spain. He has no family close to help him as they all live in Sweden. She would have liked to have gone so that she could get his shopping etc but sadly not able to and is facing the realisation that she will not be able to go and help during the summer either (she has a separate residence).

Apologies for shit formatting on previous post (phone and fat fingers).
Agreed it is highly unlikely that she will be allowed here for some time. Anecdotally perhaps late summer or winter. Tbh I'm glad for that, because international travel seems like a great way to spread CV. We are also affected by this as most of our families who we haven't seen in almost a year can't come.
Maybe Sweden might allow visitors sooner though, in which case he could go there?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Count me in!

Coronavirus: People urged to eat more steak, chips and cheese during lockdown

 

[Yoni]

"Don't tell me how I'm feeling" is your familiar refrain.

I'm not overly emotional about this. Other than distance from family (I'm concerned for my mother who is lonely and alone with no partner and mentally and physically impaired) this whole thing has been very easy and not hugely disruptive for me.

I think your refusal to engage is intellectual cowardice Yoni. My opinion is based on these main facts:

• We've been repeatedly forewarned
• Scientists and health officials have told us exactly how we needed to prepare for this
• Our governments did not heed their advice and take basic planning action
• People are dying in the thousands because of that

The above facts are unarguable. Given the above, the requirements of democracies to hold those responsible to account is clear - and it's down to the citizens of our countries to demand it.

Your position is in opposition to that action.

I like you Yoni. But I find your position utterly indefensible. Fine, don't explain yourself - but don't justify ignoring that argument by lying to yourself that I'm being overly emotional about this. I think you're doing this because it's not nice to blame people. But if we can't do the necessary when bodies are piling up (that's not an emotional description - it's just cold hard fact) then what chance do we have with the more urgent and, frankly, more important global crises that humanity faces.

I have spent countless hours explaining my view Scouse you just do not read my responses or just decide to dismiss them for some unknown reason, which is clear or you wouldn't still be harping on about how everyone should have tested. They could not they did not have the resources to contact test once the virus went past containment. Most countries did not realise they had missed that point in time, which can be easily seen by the number of bodies piling up specifically in UK, Spain, Italy, France, NL, Belgium and Sweden.

As for Talivar - I respect his view point more as he hs been consistent and shows a level of trying to understand an opposing view even if he disagrees - this is where you fail to engage people like me.

 

[Yoni]

Apologies for shit formatting on previous post (phone and fat fingers).
Agreed it is highly unlikely that she will be allowed here for some time. Anecdotally perhaps late summer or winter. Tbh I'm glad for that, because international travel seems like a great way to spread CV. We are also affected by this as most of our families who we haven't seen in almost a year can't come.
Maybe Sweden might allow visitors sooner though, in which case he could go there?

I am not sure they will as we have a soft lockdown it will go on longer although I believe the r is under 1 and has been for a week. When you listen to her you can hear that this is what is worring her most at the moment. I understand that my mum is two flights away but she is not leaving the house and is taking a lot of care... hopefully the smoking thing is accurate as she has been geting through a pack of 20 for the last 55 years or so....

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I am not sure they will as we have a soft lockdown it will go on longer although I believe the r is under 1 and has been for a week. When you listen to her you can hear that this is what is worring her most at the moment. I understand that my mum is two flights away but she is not leaving the house and is taking a lot of care... hopefully the smoking thing is accurate as she has been geting through a pack of 20 for the last 55 years or so....

Is he in a city/town or out in the Campo?

 

[Talivar]

I think the issue is we all want to live in a world where Tony Blair was punished for leading us into a war with deciet and in a world where Nazi Scientists were punished for their crimes.
Sadly though that isnt reality and Tony Blair is making a fortune and living a free and happy life where as the Nazi Scientists....
Nazis Were Given ‘Safe Haven’ in U.S., Report Says
There will be no accountability for mistakes made during this Pandemic after this is over, the only lessons learned will be how to make sure it does not cost the ruling class as much money next time.

 

[Yoni]

In this country there is no political accountability as the decisions made are driven by the recommendations of the public health authority. For the UK if I am still able to vote (it will be on the line) then I will vote for the party that can prove they have learned from the mistakes made in the current sitation and has implemented a strategy that can be envoked early and prevent unecessary death.

As for those in power today what would you @Talivar like to see happen - incarceration? public apology? step down?

 

[Yoni]

Is he in a city/town or out in the Campo?

I am actually not sure, but I think near city as he is able to get his own shopping.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I am actually not sure, but I think near city as he is able to get his own shopping.

He should be OK then as long as he takes all the necessary precautions. He'll have neighbours to keep an eye on him too, the Spanish really look after each other. Won't help your colleague but he will be just fine.

 

[Talivar]

I am not a monster so i would not want people hurt as that would make me the same, i would want them to face the same type of a Trial as the non ruling class would, but i would ensure it was not rigged. I would create a party of union for the duration of the crisis and it would have an equel number of poliiticians from each of the main parties along with representatives from key areas of the economy and health sectors. It could be argued we need a strong leader but that is simply not true as proved by the fact Boris was absent for a good portion of time and we coped. This is the key, we are almost led to beleive that we would fall apart in the absence of those in charge but that is not the reality and like in any job there will always be people ready to step into the breach.

 

[Talivar]

Please keep in mind that if Jeremy Corbon or the Chinese was found to have started this and there was evidence to prove it, then Boris, Trump and the other leaders would be all over that and demanding Justice. Just like if it turned out Paul from Norwich made a massive cock up and caused all of this and it is proved, there would be no talk of trying to understand poor Pauls situation, our beloved rulers and everyone else would be stringing poor Paul up before he could even say his name.