Politics Coronavirus

[Job]

I had read it but they are comparing to the general population and out of interest Im trying to find the average death rate for nhs workers.
Is it in there..I cant be arsed looking.

Bame being hit hard.
Are they generically vulnerable...less conscientious about protecting themselves, left out of safety meetings, less likely to have PPE...?

 

[Bodhi]

Branding a BBC Panorama report as fake news without knowing it's content or even watching it has already showed him to be "a bit of a prat" tbh.

Apologies, I will revert to firmly "not a prat" behaviour, such as wishing death upon someone because I don't like what colour tie they are wearing.

Anyway I've watched enough of it to get bored of playing "Spot the Labour Party activist", but also enough to notice that they are blaming an awful lot on the Government when the problem areas are actually the responsibility of Public Health England. I guess blaming Civil Servants makes for less interesting telly?

For instance, as part of the Pandemic Plan the Government are working to, getting PPE to frontline staff is PHE's job - section 7.1 of the below:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/344696/PI_Strategic_Framework_13_Aug.pdf

Please note, given the stories from across Europe and the US of widespread shortages, given that we appear to have the odd isolated pocket where PPE isn't getting to where it's needed I don't think PHE have done terribly here at all.

Then there's the part about them re-classifying the disease so they can provide a lower grade of equipment. Again, a decision taken by PHE, and the devolved heath administrations:

High consequence infectious diseases (HCID)

From what I recall, the decision wasn't made in regards to PPE either, more that if it was reclassified it could be treated at any hospital in Britain, whereas the other HCID's had to go to one of 4 hospitals.

The entire public sector has been responsible for our country's response to a once in a century Global Pandemic, seems a bit silly to ignore the inputs of PHE and NHS Management as well?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Apologies, I will revert to firmly "not a prat" behaviour, such as wishing death upon someone because I don't like what colour tie they are wearing.

Anyway I've watched enough of it to get bored of playing "Spot the Labour Party activist", but also enough to notice that they are blaming an awful lot on the Government when the problem areas are actually the responsibility of Public Health England. I guess blaming Civil Servants makes for less interesting telly?

For instance, as part of the Pandemic Plan the Government are working to, getting PPE to frontline staff is PHE's job - section 7.1 of the below:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/344696/PI_Strategic_Framework_13_Aug.pdf

Please note, given the stories from across Europe and the US of widespread shortages, given that we appear to have the odd isolated pocket where PPE isn't getting to where it's needed I don't think PHE have done terribly here at all.

Then there's the part about them re-classifying the disease so they can provide a lower grade of equipment. Again, a decision taken by PHE, and the devolved heath administrations:

High consequence infectious diseases (HCID)

From what I recall, the decision wasn't made in regards to PPE either, more that if it was reclassified it could be treated at any hospital in Britain, whereas the other HCID's had to go to one of 4 hospitals.

The entire public sector has been responsible for our country's response to a once in a century Global Pandemic, seems a bit silly to ignore the inputs of PHE and NHS Management as well?

Do you think it's reasonable for the covid-19 virus to be down graded so the PPE recommendations can be also to suit?
Do you think it's reasonable for the government not to follow the recommendations of it's own pandemic commitee?
There are so many questions.

 

[Bodhi]

Do you think it's reasonable for the covid-19 virus to be down graded so the PPE recommendations can be also to suit?
Do you think it's reasonable for the government not to follow the recommendations of it's own pandemic commitee?
There are so many questions.

I covered why Public Health England decided to downgrade CV-19 - so it could be treated more widely. As far ignoring the pandemic committee's advice - can you point to examples where the Government, not Public Health England did so?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I was going to write a response explaining, but while thinking how to word it so that you would understand I thought "you know what, fuck it, pointless". You will never see bad in the tories, doesn't matter what I or anyone else says. You can't see because Boris is teabagging you and his ballsack is covering your eyes.

 

[Yoni]

I understand the need to blame ‘someone’ naturally as people are dying - but what I don’t understand for those of you who have chosen to move away from the UK is why you are so focussed on the errors made by the British government - no European (note I didn’ say EU) government has done a perfect job - so why expats are you not analysing where your chosen country of residence has screwed up?

Ill start - The Swedish Government are not using their new powers to introduce further measures in Stockholm, this is irritating as last week (not this week there is snow fall in stockhome today) it was 18C+ and people came out of hibernation forgetting the personal responsiblity that has been put on us all - addtionally I believe a lot of pubs and restaurants also are not following the recommendations. There are inspections going on and 5 were close, only to have 2 reopen today.

It was very obvious to me on Friday when I went out to the post office (parcels are not normally delivered to your home in Sweden especially higher value ones), to the booze shop and supermarket that individuals even in my quieter area of town were forgetting themselves. Clear example in the booze shop there are floor markings which i stood on when I was queing to pay only to have several people just cut in front as they had not noticed / ignored them.

We are able to report flouting of recommendations and if that is done then an inspector will be sent out. This week I am off on Thursday (long weekend as 1st of may is a public holiday) so I will do everything I need to do (fresh food only) after the OAP slot at the supermarket.

I would like the Swedish government to make a few examples out of some more restaurants and pubs and this time close them for a more painful duration (sunday monday will just save costs) I would also like for the shops to pull up individuals for being retards and use the many many guards around the local shopping centre to ensure that the public follow the rules. Happily the booze shop wont be an adventure I need to go on for a while as we have a delivery arriving on Thursday afternoon evening - but fresh food shopping still needs to be done. I insist on doing this locally as I saw the amount of food that the supermarket accross the road had to throw away (not food that can be donated) due to the increase of online deliveries and adjustment period required to replenish (at a guess) - especially as I know that the homeless and laid of citizens of Stockholm are having a really really terrible time of it at the moment.

However in todays conference our primeminster still agrees with the experts and wagged his fingers at the pubs and restaurants who are not following the recommendations... I am very happy that it is 2 degrees with sleet as this will help the people to stay away from these areas and go out for exercise or appointments close to home that do not involve using public transport.

it is obvious that in Spain, France and Ireland that there have been issues inspite of the very strict shutdown (with added police violence for shits and giggles) - so what has gone wrong in your countries to have death levels where they are. I wish there was someone from Belgium on the forums as I would love to know what did not work there (and is still not working) - all countries (maybe not Ireland) now beginning to open up - do you think it is too soon? In hindsight what could have been done differently? Do you think there will be more phases due to the harsh lockdown or do you think it will be managed?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I understand the need to blame ‘someone’ naturally as people are dying - but what I don’t understand for those of you who have chosen to move away from the UK is why you are so focussed on the errors made by the British government - no European (note I didn’ say EU) government has done a perfect job - so why expats are you not analysing where your chosen country of residence has screwed up?

Ill start - The Swedish Government are not using their new powers to introduce further measures in Stockholm, this is irritating as last week (not this week there is snow fall in stockhome today) it was 18C+ and people came out of hibernation forgetting the personal responsiblity that has been put on us all - addtionally I believe a lot of pubs and restaurants also are not following the recommendations. There are inspections going on and 5 were close, only to have 2 reopen today.

It was very obvious to me on Friday when I went out to the post office (parcels are not normally delivered to your home in Sweden especially higher value ones), to the booze shop and supermarket that individuals even in my quieter area of town were forgetting themselves. Clear example in the booze shop there are floor markings which i stood on when I was queing to pay only to have several people just cut in front as they had not noticed / ignored them.

We are able to report flouting of recommendations and if that is done then an inspector will be sent out. This week I am off on Thursday (long weekend as 1st of may is a public holiday) so I will do everything I need to do (fresh food only) after the OAP slot at the supermarket.

I would like the Swedish government to make a few examples out of some more restaurants and pubs and this time close them for a more painful duration (sunday monday will just save costs) I would also like for the shops to pull up individuals for being retards and use the many many guards around the local shopping centre to ensure that the public follow the rules. Happily the booze shop wont be an adventure I need to go on for a while as we have a delivery arriving on Thursday afternoon evening - but fresh food shopping still needs to be done. I insist on doing this locally as I saw the amount of food that the supermarket accross the road had to throw away (not food that can be donated) due to the increase of online deliveries and adjustment period required to replenish (at a guess) - especially as I know that the homeless and laid of citizens of Stockholm are having a really really terrible time of it at the moment.

However in todays conference our primeminster still agrees with the experts and wagged his fingers at the pubs and restaurants who are not following the recommendations... I am very happy that it is 2 degrees with sleet as this will help the people to stay away from these areas and go out for exercise or appointments close to home that do not involve using public transport.

it is obvious that in Spain, France and Ireland that there have been issues inspite of the very strict shutdown (with added police violence for shits and giggles) - so what has gone wrong in your countries to have death levels where they are. I wish there was someone from Belgium on the forums as I would love to know what did not work there (and is still not working) - all countries (maybe not Ireland) now beginning to open up - do you think it is too soon? In hindsight what could have been done differently? Do you think there will be more phases due to the harsh lockdown or do you think it will be managed?

For me it's not about who has done best or worst, it's been a global fuckup. I have family in the UK though, 2 of whom are already ill (not CV) and very vulnerable.
It's about lies. Are the Swedish government lying to you? I'm not aware of any lies from the government here, not saying there aren't any, just not aware. Either way 2 wrongs don't make a right.

In terms of lock down easing. There are plans (only) to let people who live in the same house go out for exercise together from this weekend. Last week they allowed kids out and in some cases it did not go well, kids playing with their mates, parents chatting with each other etc. Where we are (Almeria region) is second lowest area in terms of infections/deaths, and there is talk of shops opening second week of May, bars/restaurants late May. Personally I won't be going to any bars or restaurants for a while yet. What is happening here is talk though, we are getting a feeling for when "normal" is going to start happening and what it might mean, masks/perspex screens etc.

 

[Job]

 

[Yoni]

For me it's not about who has done best or worst, it's been a global fuckup. I have family in the UK though, 2 of whom are already ill (not CV) and very vulnerable.
It's about lies. Are the Swedish government lying to you? I'm not aware of any lies from the government here, not saying there aren't any, just not aware. Either way 2 wrongs don't make a right.

In terms of lock down easing. There are plans (only) to let people who live in the same house go out for exercise together from this weekend. Last week they allowed kids out and in some cases it did not go well, kids playing with their mates, parents chatting with each other etc. Where we are (Almeria region) is second lowest area in terms of infections/deaths, and there is talk of shops opening second week of May, bars/restaurants late May. Personally I won't be going to any bars or restaurants for a while yet. What is happening here is talk though, we are getting a feeling for when "normal" is going to start happening and what it might mean, masks/perspex screens etc.

I agree re bars and restaurants - this option is still open to me however next month for my birthday we discussed going to a restaurant together and I decided that we could do that later and on my birthday we could have tapas from one of our favorite places that delivers.
I do not think the Swedish government are lying they are more transparent than most other countries but that is because the daily briefing is given by the scientists not politicians - everyone here knows that the strategy is to keep the curve under full capacity to give those who get the virus a fighting chance currently I believe that there is over 1000 beds available (which is pretty good compared with other countries).

As far as the risk groups go I think that Sweden could have learnt from the UK in letting people know if they are in this group and put them on the salary scheme - I see far too many over 70s out and about. It has been highlighted here that BAME groups are risk groups and where there is multi-generational housing individuals are being offered housing elsewhere if they want it - however not many individuals have taken up this offer although it has increased slightly.

Old peoples homes have been highlighted as a royal fuck up (as it has been in other countries) and Sweden are not hiding these numbers they are in their counts along with people who have died at home or on the street.

What I think the Swedish government should now do is use their powers to close down institutions that are not following the recommendations, fine groups of individiduals who are not keeping distance (unless they live together) and fine drivers from leaving their county (ie going from Stockholm city to the Archipelago or to another area of the country). it can be clearly seen that in the hospitals in stockholm there is capacity however it is reported although they will not tell the population where that some counties are now at full capacity which is leading to addtional deaths (so here they are not fessing up - however I think it is to prevent panic).

 

[Yoni]

View attachment 41475

ok everyone knows this - do you have a point or is it for info?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I agree re bars and restaurants - this option is still open to me however next month for my birthday we discussed going to a restaurant together and I decided that we could do that later and on my birthday we could have tapas from one of our favorite places that delivers.
I do not think the Swedish government are lying they are more transparent than most other countries but that is because the daily briefing is given by the scientists not politicians - everyone here knows that the strategy is to keep the curve under full capacity to give those who get the virus a fighting chance currently I believe that there is over 1000 beds available (which is pretty good compared with other countries).

As far as the risk groups go I think that Sweden could have learnt from the UK in letting people know if they are in this group and put them on the salary scheme - I see far too many over 70s out and about. It has been highlighted here that BAME groups are risk groups and where there is multi-generational housing individuals are being offered housing elsewhere if they want it - however not many individuals have taken up this offer although it has increased slightly.

Old peoples homes have been highlighted as a royal fuck up (as it has been in other countries) and Sweden are not hiding these numbers they are in their counts along with people who have died at home or on the street.

What I think the Swedish government should now do is use their powers to close down institutions that are not following the recommendations, fine groups of individiduals who are not keeping distance (unless they live together) and fine drivers from leaving their county (ie going from Stockholm city to the Archipelago or to another area of the country). it can be clearly seen that in the hospitals in stockholm there is capacity however it is reported although they will not tell the population where that some counties are now at full capacity which is leading to addtional deaths (so here they are not fessing up - however I think it is to prevent panic).

There are heavy fines here for not following the rules and our lockdown is hard. 600 euros for being out without valid reason, food/fuel/medical. Apparently if you have a house party prepare to part with 10,000 euros. Repeat offences will get you jail time. I support this, it's kept us all safer than we would have been. We have a small bar 500m away that sells excellent dutch and Belgian beers, the owner is a lovely guy but has a strong cleaning OCD. The place is spotless, even the toilets in there are cleaner than ours We have said that the first day we are allowed we are going up there, sitting outside in the sun away from anyone else and getting bladdered. That is the only place I would be happy going to though.

 

[Talivar]

For me as i have said before it is not about blaming people it is about accountability. My main worry is we have people that are so Tribal they will defend to the hilt the people responsible so no justice will ever be found, but far more importantly we will be at risk of it happening again because lessons are only truly learned when people are held to account. An example was during the Mad Cows outbreak we also had a Government that was following the science ect but when it was found the reality was they had politicians and civil servants on the board who was actually dictating how the science went, nothing happened to them for misleading us and here we are now in a situation where a government says it is following the science but information is starting to emerge showing the meetings included people like Dominic Cummings. No accountability means less need for transparancy.
Just look at the USA, they have a leader that can suggest injecting disinfectants, followed by a sharp rise in calls to the poison helplines due to this. If there was accoutability he would have been strung up after the last time he influenced people into drinking fish tank cleaner.

 

[Yoni]

There are heavy fines here for not following the rules and our lockdown is hard. 600 euros for being out without valid reason, food/fuel/medical. Apparently if you have a house party prepare to part with 10,000 euros. Repeat offences will get you jail time. I support this, it's kept us all safer than we would have been. We have a small bar 500m away that sells excellent dutch and Belgian beers, the owner is a lovely guy but has a strong cleaning OCD. The place is spotless, even the toilets in there are cleaner than ours We have said that the first day we are allowed we are going up there, sitting outside in the sun away from anyone else and getting bladdered. That is the only place I would be happy going to though.

So there is nothing you can criticise about the Spanish government even though 24k plus people have died (excluding deaths in the community and homes) and the country you live in has one of the highest deaths / deaths per million in the world. For a country that has had such a strict lockdown what are you being told about future waves?

 

[Yoni]

For me as i have said before it is not about blaming people it is about accountability. My main worry is we have people that are so Tribal they will defend to the hilt the people responsible so no justice will ever be found, but far more importantly we will be at risk of it happening again because lessons are only truly learned when people are held to account. An example was during the Mad Cows outbreak we also had a Government that was following the science ect but when it was found the reality was they had politicians and civil servants on the board who was actually dictating how the science went, nothing happened to them for misleading us and here we are now in a situation where a government says it is following the science but information is starting to emerge showing the meetings included people like Dominic Cummings. No accountability means less need for transparancy.
Just look at the USA, they have a leader that can suggest injecting disinfectants, followed by a sharp rise in calls to the poison helplines due to this. If there was accoutability he would have been strung up after the last time he influenced people into drinking fish tank cleaner.

I want to know what other countries where there are expats could have done better - because with the exception of a few there are improvement points for all countries - there is plenty of finger pointing at the UK and Sweden for that matter but not interestingly for France and Spain. France have made some royal fuck ups but they do not appear to be posted here but my colleagues (I work for a French company talk about what the government could have done to improve their situation very openly... )

 

[Talivar]

Well i try to stick to what i know about and i do not know enough about other countries to comment, that is why i have asked you about sweden in the past. In a way it is why sometimes i appear to defend the health services here as i work within them so have seen soem of it first hand.

 

[Yoni]

Well i try to stick to what i know about and i do not know enough about other countries to comment, that is why i have asked you about sweden in the past. In a way it is why sometimes i appear to defend the health services here as i work within them so have seen soem of it first hand.

which is why I am asking those who live in those countries to comment but it appears that everything is perfect there oO

 

[~Yuckfou~]

So there is nothing you can criticise about the Spanish government even though 24k plus people have died (excluding deaths in the community and homes) and the country you live in has one of the highest deaths / deaths per million in the world. For a country that has had such a strict lockdown what are you being told about future waves?

Tbh my spanish isn't great so watching local news is a waste of time for me. I'm sure that they have ballsed up somewhere, but if they have I'm not aware of it. I can only comment on the local situation which I think has been handled really well, very low numbers. Maybe @gunner440 has a better take on the situation, he's not a million miles away form us. What I can say is that things are run on a regional level more than they are in the UK. Whether that helps or not it's hard to say. What I can say is that the numbers here are dropping fast and include deaths not included so far in the UK. Looking at the latest figures it's entirely possible that the deaths per capita in the UK could be worse than here and Italy. We'll see over the next month or so. I really don't know what they are saying about future waves other than any "freedoms" will be revoked if people don't follow the rules or if the numbers start rising again.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Conveniently Sanchez has made a statement...

Spain’s prime minister announces coronavirus deescalation measures

 

[gunner440]

Tbh my spanish isn't great so watching local news is a waste of time for me. I'm sure that they have ballsed up somewhere, but if they have I'm not aware of it. I can only comment on the local situation which I think has been handled really well, very low numbers. Maybe @gunner440 has a better take on the situation, he's not a million miles away form us. What I can say is that things are run on a regional level more than they are in the UK. Whether that helps or not it's hard to say. What I can say is that the numbers here are dropping fast and include deaths not included so far in the UK. Looking at the latest figures it's entirely possible that the deaths per capita in the UK could be worse than here and Italy. We'll see over the next month or so. I really don't know what they are saying about future waves other than any "freedoms" will be revoked if people don't follow the rules or if the numbers start rising again.

Conveniently Sanchez has made a statement...

Spain’s prime minister announces coronavirus deescalation measures

It's a no-win situation for the government. They'll be held at fault regardless but I don't think we're not doing too bad. I'm happy they're enforcing the lockdown because if it means we are out sooner than we expected then it will have been worth the trouble. Locally I've not seen any shortages of anything whatsoever and the financial aid packages for the self-employed were sorted out quicker than I could have ever imagined. How much reserve they have is another thing altogether though.

All of the phases are subject to the prior phase having no major incidents which makes sense. Using movements of mobile phones as indicators of travel, Spain's national average is 60% of people that haven't 'travelled' during the quarantine. My town's at 64% and our region (Andalucia, the same as Yuck) is at 63% so I'm fairly confident that we'd be the ones let out sooner on good behaviour. Then again I'm kinda getting used to this.


p.s. I'm about 3 hours away if I recall correctly

 

[~Yuckfou~]

p.s. I'm about 3 hours away if I recall correctly

Along those lines, I had to drive past you a while ago. Spanish wouldn't accept our marriage certificate for Residencia, needed an updated one? We got married in Gib so drove there and back in a (long) day. I used to live in Marbella in the early 80's, moved up to above PB after a year or so. One thing I noticed as I drove by was the traffic, omg it was like being back in blighty. Where we are you can drive without seeing a car for miles on the dual carriageways/motorways. Same country, different worlds.

 

[Moriath]

So spain has done an ok job and has 24k plus deaths. But the uk is a shite hole of inadequacies and has 21k plus deaths.

so everyone in spain has all the ppe they need? They didnt leave it too late to lock down where they could have saved 000’s of lives?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

So spain has done an ok job and has 24k plus deaths. But the uk is a shite hole of inadequacies and has 21k plus deaths.

so everyone in spain has all the ppe they need? They didnt leave it too late to lock down where they could have saved 000’s of lives?

Our figures are dropping dramatically, yours aren't. We have a normal plan now, you don't. Spain was short of PPE so they started manufacturing their own. Spain locked down 2 weeks before the UK even though the first cases were reported in the UK before Spain.
Not too shabby then is it?

 

[Yoni]

However according to the New York Times Spain is missing 9.1k deaths. Least reliable at the moment.

Additinally there are reports that as per other countries old peoples homes have been mismanaged (the local Spanish edition)

Finally Spain resorted to brutality to manage their citizens- no matter what anyone says THIS will never be ok for me.

 

[gunner440]

So spain has done an ok job and has 24k plus deaths. But the uk is a shite hole of inadequacies and has 21k plus deaths.

so everyone in spain has all the ppe they need? They didnt leave it too late to lock down where they could have saved 000’s of lives?

No we didn't have all the ppe we need but the guys made do with what they had / what they could make. Was it perfect? No, but then again I don't care. As a country we're going towards the end which is all anyone wants.

One thing about this place though compared to when I lived in the UK, is that the result is far more valued than the process. When I read the British news it seems like they're worried about the wrong things but maybe that's just how I'm interpreting it. Don't get me wrong though, valuing results over process also has its negative points but I'm happy that people here are generally helping towards the greater good. I almost vomited writing that last bit.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

However according to the New York Times Spain is missing 9.1k deaths. Least reliable at the moment.

Additinally there are reports that as per other countries old peoples homes have been mismanaged (the local Spanish edition)

Undoubtedly, looking like the UK Care home figures are pretty bad though as well..
Coronavirus: Deaths in care homes reach highest level in nearly 30 years

 

[Scouse]

I work with NHS services as my own role is within Childrens Mental Health and something needed to change funding wise before Covid even hit. Now it will need to change even more and it is something all parties will need to agree to as i think the after effects of this outbreak are going to last for many years to come. Even more so if the rumblings are true and the virus has possibly adapted and is now hitting children harder.

Yes. And people have been pointing this out for years. To a political party that's consistently ignored this - and the warnings of this exact disaster.

 

[Yoni]

Undoubtedly, looking like the UK Care home figures are pretty bad though as well..
Coronavirus: Deaths in care homes reach highest level in nearly 30 years

More concerned about Spains missing deaths to be honest that is over 9k humans not accounted for :/ AND more missing deaths than any other European country.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

There was an article either on Sky news or BBC today saying that the care home deaths in the UK are equal to the hospital deaths. I can't find it right now, perhaps someone can help. My curry is ready so I'm concentrating on that.

 

[Scouse]

I want to know what other countries where there are expats could have done better

Still firmly on the side of the child's argument "well he did this!" (whilst steadfastly ignoring the countries that followed the scientific advice). And has been said - two wrongs don't make an "alright".

It doesn't matter what anyone else has done. The UK government needs to be (but is not going to be) held accountable for thousands of needless deaths. Needless.

All they had to do was pay attention, follow the scientists, and do their job. And they didn't.

The same way they're not doing it with the other more existential issues.

 

[Yoni]

There was an article either on Sky news or BBC today saying that the care home deaths in the UK are equal to the hospital deaths. I can't find it right now, perhaps someone can help. My curry is ready so I'm concentrating on that.

NYT has missing deaths in the UK at 6.4k not great either but not unexpected nor should it be a surprise given the content of this thread - however Spain has been painted as near perfect ?