Politics Coronavirus

[Scouse]

1. They had to create the test. I was not stockpiled years ago. So again you cannot stockpile a test which checks for an unknown virus.

Easy done if you have the basics stockpiled - which they did. And it was easy. As proven by South Korea. (Which would also have been easily shared with countries that should have done the same).

2. They were prepared after the other 2 virus outbreaks. No doubting that.

So why weren't we?

Scientists and the (defunded) WHO had been screaming this from the rooftops since before those two outbreaks.

Don't we "listen to scientists"?

3. They act in a socially different way.

Proof. Bull made up on the spot.

The only social thing they did differently was act on the advice of the experts - something we steadfastly ignore in the west in all walks of life.

4. The rest of the world didn't think (my opinion) is that it could happen to them.

So we're dicks then.

It's not the 'rest of the world' that need to be 'held' to this account that you keep saying we will do.

It's our current government - you know - the one you keep defending. The one that didn't listen to the scientists warnings, resulting in lockdown and lots of clearly avoidable death.

 

[Deebs]

Easy done if you have the basics stockpiled - which they did. And it was easy. As proven by South Korea. (Which would also have been easily shared with countries that should have done the same).

So why weren't we?

Scientists and the (defunded) WHO had been screaming this from the rooftops since before those two outbreaks.

Don't we "listen to scientists"?

Proof. Bull made up on the spot.

The only social thing they did differently was act on the advice of the experts - something we steadfastly ignore in the west in all walks of life.

So we're dicks then.

It's not the 'rest of the world' that need to be 'held' to this account that you keep saying we will do.

It's our current government - you know - the one you keep defending. The one that didn't listen to the scientists warnings, resulting in lockdown and lots of clearly avoidable death.

Point 3. Made up bull. Everytime I have seen South Korean public on the TV they are always wearing facemasks. For years. How is that not socially different to us?

 

[Scouse]

Ah, you mean the contact tracing app South Koreans have to install that you said you wanted nothing to do with?

Inconsistent argument is inconsistent.

1) I've said nothing of the sort. Link please.

2) Read the article - South Korea will come out of this with their privacy and democracy intact - we won't.

3) Eff off

 

[Ormorof]

1. They had to create the test. I was not stockpiled years ago. So again you cannot stockpile a test which checks for an unknown virus.
2. They were prepared after the other 2 virus outbreaks. No doubting that.
3. They act in a socially different way.
4. The rest of the world didn't think (my opinion) is that it could happen to them.

I think no4 is the big one, not much more than a month ago we were all sitting pretty at work pondering if this would come north or stay in Italy, a few weeks before it was "another SARS in China" type attitude

Hell even Scouse posted a "its just a flu" comment in football thread if i remember right

 

[Scouse]

Point 3. Made up bull. Everytime I have seen South Korean public on the TV they are always wearing facemasks. For years. How is that not socially different to us?

BSI facemasks? Or paper ones bought on any street corner?

Can't have it both ways @Deebs

 

[Deebs]

BSI facemasks? Or paper ones bought on any street corner?

Can't have it both ways @Deebs

Nah you don't get off that easily. You said I made up bullshit. I gave you proof that they act in a socially different way by wearing ANY facemask, be it a scarf, faulty or fully made to SK standards And that's one visible aspect no doubt they follow other measures since the other outbreaks and is ingrained into their way of life.

 

[Bodhi]

Hey @Embattle, do you need another source for your Power Wall? As Scouse is spinning so hard, I reckon you could hook him up to a Dynamo and cook some dinner.

 

[dysfunction]

Yes and I keep seeing interviews with hospital managers that say they are reusing PPE but only after washing it and testing that it is still viable and safe to use.

What about the flimsy plastic aprons? They high standard PPE and safe to use?

 

[Deebs]

What about the flimsy plastic aprons? They high standard PPE and safe to use?

No idea as I am not an expert in that field to answer. However, are they working in Covid-19 wards or in other less infectious wards?

Seriously please everyone read this article and note the bits around the gowns:

Is protective equipment getting to NHS staff on the coronavirus frontline? Here's the truth | Chris Hopson

For those with reading difficulty I quote the following:

China is the only immediate high-volume source of clinical gowns. Specialised fluid-repellent treatment is needed, very high volume manufacturing capacity is required and other smaller source manufacturing countries are placing export bans on gowns. There is massive global competition for gowns, all concentrated on China. National NHS leaders started buying stocks many weeks ago but the delivery is still erratic despite daily freight flights. The Chinese have apparently been delaying consignments to conduct local testing before releasing stocks. There have been instances of stock being mislabelled with gowns seemingly arriving only to find, on opening, that the boxes contained masks. Once actual stocks have arrived, they have to meet stringent safety tests with no guarantee that these will be passed.

 

[Bodhi]

Hidden Outbreaks Spread Through U.S. Cities Far Earlier Than Americans Knew, Estimates Say

 

[Scouse]

Nah you don't get off that easily. You said I made up bullshit. I gave you proof that they act in a socially different way by wearing ANY facemask, be it a scarf, faulty or fully made to SK standards And that's one visible aspect no doubt they follow other measures since the other outbreaks and is ingrained into their way of life.

Me get off easy?

It's actually a pollution thing. They're aware of the smog issues. Common across Asia.

However, the masks aren't to BSI standards and since we've been talking about this for several pages this can largely be chalked down to irrelevance - but the very real testing and contact tracing, following the science, the warnings and the WHO guidelines, is what's made the difference here.

One thing I will say though - Asian countries have much less of a streak of anti-intellectualism than western cultures. If you look at what is valued in those cultures a solid education and intellectual prowess are top of the list. (Whereas we're a bit more Harry Potter - bravery, fair play and 'mates', rather than 'books and cleverness'.)*

Perhaps that's why they're more willing to heed warnings from clever people, rather than dismiss them as "experts" - which was a central tenet of a recent political campaign.


*yes. She made me watch them again during lockdown

 

[Yoni]

I think that Asian countries have had time to prepare due to earlier outbreaks. Addtionally and I do not know why the science is being dismissed so readily but there are different strains of this virus some more deadly than others - see Oxford Uni research paper I posted last weekend I think.

So before we go patting countries on the back for doing an awesome job, they have had to face very different realities also... (although S Korea where very well prepared but they were worst in class after MERS so also had to learn the hard way sadly)

 

[Deebs]

Me get off easy?
*yes. She made me watch them again during lockdown

In an attempt to inject light into a dark thread, could you not just put on some 3d glasses and fall asleep? If asked why you need the glasses say it enhances the viewing for you.

 

[Deebs]

Oooh, I can go on gov.uk tomorrow and book a test.

 

[Embattle]

Oooh, I can go on gov.uk tomorrow and book a test.

Is it still a swab up the nose test......must resist.

 

[Deebs]

Is it still a swab up the nose test......must resist.

If it is I will take a broom with me so it is not a wasted trip.

 

[Yoni]

Please can someone tell me if Hancock (who I can not stand) is actually struggling when he announces the death figures for the day. I noticed the last time he did this that I heard a wavering in his voice.

God knows even though I do not like the man - his job absolutely sucks, I do not envy him, I do not think I could do better except maybe not to appear to be occasionally telling mistruths (if he has made a mistake then it is this not the effort he is putting in to try to rectify the situation the UK are in).

 

[Bodhi]

Fairly sobering report below on deaths from CV19 in the NHS:

Exclusive: deaths of NHS staff from covid-19 analysed

If there is a positive to take from it however, it is that Healthcare Professionals are not dying at a higher rate than the general public. From this we can deduce - using actual science - that they are not being put at increased risk by negligent PPE provision, only put at risk of catching the virus itself in their lives outside of work.

Among the nursing staff, specialty was not always mentioned, but none were described as intensive care nurses.

 

[Yoni]

Fairly sobering report below on deaths from CV19 in the NHS:

Exclusive: deaths of NHS staff from covid-19 analysed

If there is a positive to take from it however, it is that Healthcare Professionals are not dying at a higher rate than the general public. From this we can deduce - using actual science - that they are not being put at increased risk by negligent PPE provision, only put at risk of catching the virus itself in their lives outside of work.

Did I miss a break down of underlying conditions? I would be interested in seeing whether that had an impact also.

 

[Bodhi]

Please can someone tell me if Hancock (who I can not stand) is actually struggling when he announces the death figures for the day. I noticed the last time he did this that I heard a wavering in his voice.

God knows even though I do not like the man - his job absolutely sucks, I do not envy him, I do not think I could do better except maybe not to appear to be occasionally telling mistruths (if he has made a mistake then it is this not the effort he is putting in to try to rectify the situation the UK are in).

I'm sure this post will be dismissed as the ramblings of a demented Tory, but I actually think he's done a pretty decent job considering the circumstances. It's not a situation anyone can ever really prepare for, and things are changing by the day, so if people say something that turns out to be wrong it bothers me less than if we were in normal times. He's clearly being run ragged, and every death is clearly weighing on everyone in charge's conscious - hence me being willing to cut them some slack.

Nothing to do with what colour tie they have, as I extend the same to Whitty, Valliance, etc. Less to Professor Ferguson of Imperial, but that's a different story....

 

[Bodhi]

Did I miss a break down of underlying conditions? I would be interested in seeing whether that had an impact also.

It doesn't sadly. It does break things down by ethnicity, however that is a can of worms I'm keeping firmly closed.

 

[caLLous]

Nothing to do with what colour tie they have, as I extend the same to Whitty, Valliance, etc. Less to Professor Ferguson of Imperial, but that's a different story....

Honestly it's a wonder Ferguson still has a role as important as he does, after his contributions to the BSE and Foot and Mouth outbreaks.

 

[Yoni]

It is strange in Sweden where they are just following the science (there are no human emotions involved in the decision making here ...) the experts are coming under huge amounts of fire for their recommendations.

It appears to me that unless you lockdown you are considered to not be following the science even though the authorities here are actually do that. No one from government or parliment attends the daily briefings - it is the heads of he departments ie health, social care and whatever needs updating each day. They are currently seen by western immigrants in particular as heartless and cut throat, in my view it is not their job to be fluffy and distracted by the bodies piling up around them but to keep their objectivity. They have issued plenty of warnings to the government in the last week about an increase in evening and nightime activity however it would appear that the retards have decided that a full nightlife is ok in stockholm as it has been very sunny and warm. Government since 18th April have the powers to close down restaurants who are not following the rules but instead they are gettning naughty notes on their files - so for me it is not about not following the science. The science is clear to me, it is about "some" indivudals, pubs and restaurants who are not following the recommendations. We are however ahead of the virus in terms of intensive care beds although like the rest of he world PPE is a problem.

Additionally there is a view in a lot of the swedish population that is it that the people who are mostly affected are at the end of their lives - the Swedish population are more concerned with the younger generation and believe that as a country if we go on a firm lockdown we would be sacrificing their lives and education (the younger generation) for the sake of those who are already past their expiry date - harsh I know but still relevant. Addtionally many people in Sweden want to understand why the western world is not upset every day by the number of people who die normaly of hunger on a daily basis (24k per day) or the number of children who get sold in to slavery and are coming to the conclusion that the only reason that other countries are taking such huge actions is because the danger is on their doorstep - by their they mean the politicians and white rich. (please do not shoot the messenger).

This virus is nasty but I am of the conclusion that each country that has infected citizens needs to manager the population to give their health services the greatest chance to manage. It is believed in Sweden that as it will take many many more months before a vaccine is ready that the same people are going to die (sadly) and the strategy is for that to happen as slowly as possible so give the health service here a fighting chance to give everyone both CV19 or not a chance to get the medical attention they need.

Finally in Stockholm they believe that c.30% of us will have been infected by 1st of May - the rest of the country (like in the UK) is a little behind.

 

[Deebs]

Oooh, I can go on gov.uk tomorrow and book a test.

Fucksake need to practice more on my cough and drop technique. Need symptoms to get tested.

 

[caLLous]

Fucksake need to practice more on my cough and drop technique. Need symptoms to get tested.

Hancock definitely didn't make it clear that you need to be symptomatic to get tested, unless he used very careful language because he repeatedly said "if you need a test".

He also made a point of saying it was free... I should fucking well hope so.

 

[Deebs]

Hancock definitely didn't make it clear that you need to be symptomatic to get tested, unless he used very careful language because he repeatedly said "if you need a test".

He also made a point of saying it was free... I should fucking well hope so.

It is good news right? Sorry forgot you are the glass is half empty mentality.

 

[Deebs]

It is good news right? Sorry forgot you are the glass is half empty mentality.

In fact during WW2 if the likes of you was around then God help us.

 

[Scouse]

I dislike this thinking completely:

I think that Asian countries have had time to prepare due to earlier outbreaks.

Are we so dumb that we can't learn the lessons of a connected world?

We were warned, have been warned, not just "multiple times" but consistently (and ongoing - for lots of different things, but also specifically this situation). And we had sars/mers/ebola in recent memory.

It's not just "oh well we didn't know - only the South Koreans knew". We bloody knew very well indeed.

And we did nothing about it.

We also know about global warming, the ongoing extinction-level ecological disaster and the issue of plastics - and scientists are screaming to high heaven about it.

And we're doing very little about any of it.

Until we, as a species, can learn the lessons of others and listen to those who's lives are spent in the gathering of knowledge that could help all of humanity we deserve death.

Fermi's paradox applies absolutely to us. We don't make it - because we don't heed the warnings of people who know better and don't learn the obvious lessons of not even history - but ongoing disasters of the modern day.

We're the ultimate ostriches.

 

[Deebs]

I dislike this thinking completely:
Are we so dumb that we can't learn the lessons of a connected world?

We were warned, have been warned, not just "multiple times" but consistently (and ongoing - for lots of different things, but also specifically this situation). And we had sars/mers/ebola in recent memory.

It's not just "oh well we didn't know - only the South Koreans knew". We bloody knew very well indeed.

And we did nothing about it.

We also know about global warming, the ongoing extinction-level ecological disaster and the issue of plastics - and scientists are screaming to high heaven about it.

And we're doing very little about any of it.

Until we, as a species, can learn the lessons of others and listen to those who's lives are spent in the gathering of knowledge that could help all of humanity we deserve death.

Fermi's paradox applies absolutely to us. We don't make it - because we don't heed the warnings of people who know better and don't learn the obvious lessons of not even history - but ongoing disasters of the modern day.

We're the ultimate ostriches.

When an asteroid hits and fucks us up will you blame the Tories?

 

[Deebs]

When an asteroid hits and fucks us up will you blame the Tories?

I notice @caLLous you deleted a post about stock piling tests for unknown virus. Why?

Let me remind you.

BREXIT has happened. Legally we are not part of the EU.

Let me repeat that for you in case you are still living in a dream

The UK is not part of the European Union. Unless a deal is arranged by UK LAW (yes UK law) we will leave under WTO terms at the end of the year.

In order to rejoin the EU we would have to go thru all the EU requirements. This will take years. Again, in case you don't realise, the UK is NOT part of the European Union.