Politics Coronavirus

[Wij]

We've been OK for chicken, but I've not seen a firelighter since this thing started
Shopping during siesta is always the quietest time, we've done that since we arrived.

I still can't believe siesta is a thing. I used to think it was a racist stereotype to allow the British to feel superior to the lazy southern Europeans

 

[~Yuckfou~]

I still can't believe siesta is a thing. I used to think it was a racist stereotype to allow the British to feel superior to the lazy southern Europeans

Nope its a thing.
95% of shops close at 2:00pm, then open again between 4 and 5, but then open till 8 or so. It gets F hot, and they need their brandy.

 

[gunner440]

I still can't believe siesta is a thing. I used to think it was a racist stereotype to allow the British to feel superior to the lazy southern Europeans

With lots of inland places (far from the tourist seaside areas) hitting high 30s - 40s shutting at that time of the day is the most logical thing to do. But when you have shops open til 10pm-10.30pm it makes things a lot more convenient. I remember having to get used to places closing at 6pm-7pm when I lived in England.

 

[Bodhi]

Fucking hell, social distancing at its finest. And we are not even allowed to sit on a park bench.

Fucking bellends


View: https://twitter.com/d_rafi1/status/1250864574984867856

Must admit when I first saw this and all the police on the bridge I assumed they'd found someone on the way home from Tesco with a Curly Wurly and some crisps.

 

[Ormorof]

Figures suggest not:


View: https://twitter.com/DequinceyDr/status/1250828373691191300?s=20

From what @Yoni has posted Swedens non lockdown sounds pretty similar to here in Finland where we are on "lockdown" , schools and kindergartens are open but still recommendation is to keep kids home if you can, same with working remotely all companies where people can work remotely are working remotely, much like in Sweden the government really has little power to enforce this, at least unless they vote to give themselves this power

Social distancing is also very easy when you consider even here in capital area the pop density is only around 130 per sq km and outside of capital area you can go hours without seeing anyone on a non lockdown day

 

[Scouse]

Figures suggest not

You claim to be switched on but post irrelevancies because don't really understand stats (or, worse, are wilful in your misrepresentation). Anyway, using relevant figures:

April 1, COVID-19 deaths in Sweden accounted for 24 per million citizens, whereas in Norway it was only eight deaths per million. Finland was lower still with just three per million..

Because they didn't lock down.

I get that you're an apologist for all sorts of things but I didn't think you'd be one for excess unnecessary death.

I guess you're just like the rightwing tory agitators who are so fucking insular and self-absorbed they're agitating for the end of the lockdown right now...

 

[Scouse]

I still can't believe siesta is a thing. I used to think it was a racist stereotype to allow the British to feel superior to the lazy southern Europeans

British labelled 'them' lazy to stop us feeling bad that we don't get one

 

[Scouse]

I'm interested to see the final number of deaths (per head of population) in Sweden (and other countries) two years after we've got a working vaccine.

Big picture should be available then - with the huge caveat that information on what actually happened will still all be theoretical because we've failed to "test test test", like the WHO said.

Danger there is, if we, say, follow Sweden the next time round based on ultimate mortality rate it might turn out to be a monumental clusterfuck because in-country conditions differ.

Guess we'll never know. But it's a fucking epic fail that we didn't "learn all that is learnable"

 

[Wij]

British labelled 'them' lazy to stop us feeling bad that we don't get one

The British could always find ways to slack off outside of official channels. It's part of the national character

 

[Wij]

I'm interested to see the final number of deaths (per head of population) in Sweden (and other countries) two years after we've got a working vaccine.

Big picture should be available then - with the huge caveat that information on what actually happened will still all be theoretical because we've failed to "test test test", like the WHO said.

Danger there is, if we, say, follow Sweden the next time round based on ultimate mortality rate it might turn out to be a monumental clusterfuck because in-country conditions differ.

Guess we'll never know. But it's a fucking epic fail that we didn't "learn all that is learnable"

As you said though I don't think national comparisons based one who locked down and when are necessarily meaningful when Sweden has a population density of about 1 person per area-of-Wales.

 

[Bodhi]

You claim to be switched on but post irrelevancies because don't really understand stats (or, worse, are wilful in your misrepresentation). Anyway, using relevant figures:



Because they didn't lock down.

I get that you're an apologist for all sorts of things but I didn't think you'd be one for excess unnecessary death.

I guess you're just like the rightwing tory agitators who are so fucking insular and self-absorbed they're agitating for the end of the lockdown right now...

Hmm, so I post figures from Swedish sources posted yesterday, and you counter with a report from 3 weeks ago? Are you for real?

And sorry to disappoint you, however I am not one for excess unnecessary death in the slightest, just switched on enough to know that lockdown, and the worldwide depression that will follow it costs lives as well. From people not going to hospital with chest pains until it's too late, to vital cancer treatments being postponed, to all the mental health issues caused by locking people in their houses all day and the inevitable depression and suicides from people's businesses going under.

For instance a report has been circulating Whitehall that a protracted lockdown (like you appear to favour) could cause around 150,000 avoidable deaths. Don't know about you, but I'd probably like us to try and avoid that as well?

Social distancing measures working better than experts 'dared to hope'

At this point it's lives vs lives. It's slightly concerning that you seem to be ignoring that to have a rant about the Tories.

 

[Moriath]

Hmm, so I post figures from Swedish sources posted yesterday, and you counter with a report from 3 weeks ago? Are you for real?

And sorry to disappoint you, however I am not one for excess unnecessary death in the slightest, just switched on enough to know that lockdown, and the worldwide depression that will follow it costs lives as well. From people not going to hospital with chest pains until it's too late, to vital cancer treatments being postponed, to all the mental health issues caused by locking people in their houses all day and the inevitable depression and suicides from people's businesses going under.

For instance a report has been circulating Whitehall that a protracted lockdown (like you appear to favour) could cause around 150,000 avoidable deaths. Don't know about you, but I'd probably like us to try and avoid that as well?

Social distancing measures working better than experts 'dared to hope'

At this point it's lives vs lives. It's slightly concerning that you seem to be ignoring that to have a rant about the Tories.

But lockdown is also greatly reducing the number of road deaths, industrial accident deaths and the pollution levels are a lot less as well as deaths from other respiratory causes should be less amoungst other things. Swings and roundabouts

 

[Bodhi]

But lockdown is also greatly reducing the number of road deaths, industrial accident deaths and the pollution levels are a lot less as well as deaths from other respiratory causes should be less amoungst other things. Swings and roundabouts

Around 1800 a year die on Britain's roads, and 150 in Industrial accidents.

Whereas 6,000 a year die in accidents in the home. Where is everyone right now?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

British labelled 'them' lazy to stop us feeling bad that we don't get one

Tbh the Spanish tradesmen I've seen work pretty damn hard. Start at 8 quit at 2, off for a 2 hour "lunch" then back until 7 or 8. More than I can x say for the equivalent brits who think 2 is the end of the working day. I've been using locals wherever possible.

 

[Scouse]

Tbh the Spanish tradesmen I've seen work pretty damn hard. Start at 8 quit at 2, off for a 2 hour "lunch" then back until 7 or 8. More than I can x say for the equivalent brits who think 2 is the end of the working day. I've been using locals wherever possible.

Yeah - I think the Spanish work just as hard as anyone else. It's just too damn hot in the middle of the day

 

[Moriath]

 

[Scouse]

Hmm, so I post figures from Swedish sources posted yesterday

No. As I said - you posted irrelevant figures (from some amateur Brexiteer in Yorkshire, no less) showing the Swedes have got over their peak. That is nothing to do with the argument put forward (deaths per million).

And sorry to disappoint you, however I am not one for excess unnecessary death in the slightest, just switched on enough to know that lockdown, and the worldwide depression that will follow it costs lives as well. From people not going to hospital with chest pains until it's too late, to vital cancer treatments being postponed, to all the mental health issues caused by locking people in their houses all day and the inevitable depression and suicides from people's businesses going under.

For instance a report has been circulating Whitehall that a protracted lockdown (like you appear to favour) could cause around 150,000 avoidable deaths. Don't know about you, but I'd probably like us to try and avoid that as well?

Source? Or some more "Doctor De Quincey" anti-MSM wisdom?

Oh, it's a rumour, probably from another twitter warrior, dismissed by the Tories in the article you posted:

A Downing Street spokesman said: “It is not a number that I have ever seen.” It was also dismissed by Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary.

I'm absolutely prepared to have that discussion though. I agree, a lockdown doesn't come without drawbacks. But then - if we'd followed the WHO instruction to "test test test" - like South Korea did - then we could potentially have killed this off without a lockdown.

But then, doing actual science, testing people, tracing contacts and isolating them - you know, how the experts told us (repeatedly) we should deal with pandemics - doesn't fit in your orange-skinned defund-the-inconveniently-correct cock-sucker view of the world.

As for this:

At this point it's lives vs lives. It's slightly concerning that you seem to be ignoring that to have a rant about the Tories.

I work off evidence not rumour - and my posting on this forum shows a track record of understanding "maximum harm" and wanting to reduce that, ahead of the headline-grabbing figures. (Pollution vs Terrorism? And which side of that argument do you fall down on? Oh yes, the one on the wrong side of the evidence, as usual).

You're just butthurt that you're being told to stay indoors and are trying to find arguments to undermine what, at the moment, is the correct course of action (second only to "test test test" - but as we hate the WHO, we can't let the evidence come first eh?)

Death reduction is the important thing indeed. Led by evidence.

 

[Bodhi]

No. As I said - you posted irrelevant figures (from some amateur Brexiteer in Yorkshire, no less) showing the Swedes have got over their peak. That is nothing to do with the argument put forward (deaths per million).



Source? Or some more "Doctor De Quincey" anti-MSM wisdom?

Oh, it's a rumour, probably from another twitter warrior, dismissed by the Tories in the article you posted:

I'm absolutely prepared to have that discussion though. I agree, a lockdown doesn't come without drawbacks. But then - if we'd followed the WHO instruction to "test test test" - like South Korea did - then we could potentially have killed this off without a lockdown.

But then, doing actual science, testing people, tracing contacts and isolating them - you know, how the experts told us (repeatedly) we should deal with pandemics - doesn't fit in your orange-skinned defund-the-inconveniently-correct cock-sucker view of the world.

As for this:

I work off evidence not rumour - and my posting on this forum shows a track record of understanding "maximum harm" and wanting to reduce that, ahead of the headline-grabbing figures. (Pollution vs Terrorism? And which side of that argument do you fall down on? Oh yes, the one on the wrong side of the evidence, as usual).

You're just butthurt that you're being told to stay indoors and are trying to find arguments to undermine what, at the moment, is the correct course of action (second only to "test test test" - but as we hate the WHO, we can't let the evidence come first eh?)

Death reduction is the important thing indeed. Led by evidence.

I'll post the original link that graph was taken from and you can decide if it was from a Brexiteer in Yorkshire - if it is, his Swedish is pretty fucking impressive.

Experience

As for the rest of your projection laden diatribe, I'll treat that with the respect it deserves, and file it under I for Ignore.

 

[Yoni]

I could be knocking out epic levels of wanks if I didn't have the family in the house tbh. All these jokey articles about how wanking has reached record levels under lockdown are depressing. I'm actually getting fewer in now. Even when the kids have been warned to keep out when Daddy is on a call work/business colleagues on Hangouts/Zoom get suspicious when my shoulder is moving and my eyes go crossed

Same story two different headlines dependent on which country you live in ...

 

[DaGaffer]

Same story two different headlines dependent on which country you live in ...

View attachment 41402

If you're an online retailer and have managed to stay open (and a surprising number haven't) then you've made an absolute fortune in the last few weeks, no matter what you sell.

 

[Scouse]

I'll post the original link that graph

Why bother? You've had it spelled out to you twice now why it's irrelevant and you still haven't grasped the nettle.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

The deaths graph here seems to paint a different picture. A general increase in deaths per day, with very little reporting over weekends and a peak on Tuesdays and the Wednesday after Easter.

 

[Yoni]

I'll post the original link that graph was taken from and you can decide if it was from a Brexiteer in Yorkshire - if it is, his Swedish is pretty fucking impressive.

Experience

As for the rest of your projection laden diatribe, I'll treat that with the respect it deserves, and file it under I for Ignore.

These are the official statistics in Sweden (I posted this linke a few pages ago).

I am not a tory and in Sweden they do not even know politics as far right as British Tories (they do have a nationalistic party who want all the immigrants to go home but enjoy and do not want to change the social care enjoyed in Sweden). The current government in power is Social Democrats ie further left than UK Labour.

I am actually getting sick and tired of people in countries who are on tight lockdown due to their own demographic issues and or political decision making. As I have stated Sweden are aware where they have fucked up they discuss it in their daily conferences and they are also discussing the actions now being taken (albeit too late) to improve the situation moving forward. The reason numbers are higher to a large extent in Sweden when compared with Denmark, Norway and Finland is due to the mismanagement of the disease in to the old peoples homes (something that you are aware of in the UK the difference being those numbers are in our statistics where as they are not in the statistics of UK, Spain, Italy USA and probably others..... Another difference is that is that the measurment of deaths per million in countries is not defined or equal- in Sweden they include all deaths due to CV19 and deaths associated to CV19 plus all deaths. It is not clear in the other Nordic countries if it is done in the same way so please can you stop comparing this statistic because it is not logical to do so at this time.

This article describes why I am a believer in what Sweden are doing at the moment: https://www.thelocal.se/20200416/coronavirus-opinion-are-swedes-naive-or-the-only-adults-in-the-room

 

[Yoni]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

The deaths graph here seems to paint a different picture. A general increase in deaths per day, with very little reporting over weekends and a peak on Tuesdays and the Wednesday after Easter.

Sorry but if you are really intersted please tune in at 3pm UK time to the daily briefing in Sweden where they will give you the statistics which are reflected not only on the FOHM site but also you can google intensive care sweden and validate numbers there.

The first graph (I hope this is the same dates as the one show above) Shows numbers of actual deaths per day on the day it hapened. As you can see yesterday there were a high number of reported deaths (green( however a substantial amount were for previous days). The second graph is from today. The information on wom is reported on a day not the day on which the person has died.

 

[Scouse]

If it was one or two times per million I'd have sympathy, but ten times?

Maybe Sweden needs less believers and more detailed explanation of it's figures at this point?



Edit: @Yoni - you seem to be taking personal affront at this discussion?

 

[Yoni]

Primarily I am taking umbridge where I see individuals who say they believe in scientific method and actions being led by experts and then overly criticising a non political scientific strategy because it doesn't suit their personal agenda especially when you are not even looking at comparable numbers.

I have stated I think four times now that Sweden know where they went wrong and it is not with their current strategy. Their issue is with the missmanagement of the virus in to old peoples homes a number that Sweden have in their statistics where as for other countries including our neighbours this is not confirmed currently. However you Scouse do not like the results of Sweden because they didnt shutdown even though they have not hidden but openly discuss what went wrong with the old peoples homes. As a contrast in Belgium they did and are still shut down - similar population size (massive difference in density) however there reported deaths per million are significantly higher than even the UKs (who are now forecast to have the worst dpm in Europe... and that is without old peoples homes being included) - why are you not interested in understanding that? Sweden has taken actions they just do not agree with your personal agenda.

 

[Yoni]

If it was one or two times per million I'd have sympathy, but ten times?

Maybe Sweden needs less believers and more detailed explanation of it's figures at this point?



Edit: @Yoni - you seem to be taking personal affront at this discussion?

Sorry but Sweden are explaining their figures to the population (maybe that is why we are relitively calm about what is happening here) on a working daily basis - just because you cant understand the language or do not tune in it doesnt mean it isnt actually happening. I am not sure that the FHM need to explain their actions to you personally Scouse - if you want to be critical maybe you should tune in and at least make an effort to undestand them yourself before deciding that they are deliberately killing people on purpose.

 

[Bodhi]

Why bother? You've had it spelled out to you twice now why it's irrelevant and you still haven't grasped the nettle.

You suggested Sweden was ramping up, I posted data from the Swedish Government which proved that to be bollocks. When confronted with this you decided to resort to personal attacks as usual.

 

[Scouse]

...criticising ... doesn't suit their personal agenda ... However you Scouse do not like the results of Sweden .... Sweden has taken actions they just do not agree with your personal agenda....Scouse - if you want to be critical maybe you should tune in and at least make an effort to undestand them yourself before deciding that they are deliberately killing people on purpose

Sorry @Yoni - but you are clearly taking it personally with your "deciding that they're deliberately killing people on purpose" bullcrap.

I've no "personal agenda" with Sweden other than I'm interested in discussing the fact that Sweden's struck out on a limb. I'm interested in the results of this social experiment, nothing more than that. I actually would like the idea that a less draconian measure could bring about a lower death rate - but whichever way you spin it including deaths from old people's homes doesn't explain the currently reported gap.

Frankly, if I have an agenda it's that I'm a bit fucked off that the whole world didn't do what the defunded-WHO said (and which Korea succesfully did) - test, test, test. For that Britain, the USA, Sweden, everyone is pretty much guilty and culpable - and that is the comparison that we should be making.

So pull your knickers out of yer crack - this is NOT a personal vendetta against Sweden. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Scouse]

You suggested Sweden was ramping up

What, exactly, did I say. As @DaGaffer likes to point out - context is everything.

Tell you what:

Sweden look to be ramping up - I understand they've just passed a load of laws allowing them to restrict gatherings/close businesses etc

Clearly, in the same sentence, their efforts to contain. In the context of a discussion about Sweden's differing response to most of their peers.

I get it @Bodhi. It's difficult. Small sentences from now on.