Politics Coronavirus

[Jupitus]

Well... front line news from my lady - they have had to reconvene their situation meetings now to try to ensure they have enough cover.... make of it what you will....

 

[Scouse]

but if you could for example sacrifice the population over 80 and everyone else is ok.

I do hope that's just aspergers because if not that's world-class cunt level.

It wasn't even about killing 80 year olds to save other people - it was killing them for money.

Get ye tae fuck Tory boy.

 

[Bodhi]

Struggling to hear the audio but I'm assuming this is Prof Dingwall on Newsnight last night talking about Long COVID, and how there's a large psychosomatic element to it? I've seen various loons on Twitter calling him an arse for it, but there are a couple of studies out there which back it up:

From Switzerland - Long-term symptoms after SARS-CoV-2 infection in school children: population-based cohort with 6-months follow-up

Seropositive children, all with a history of pauci-symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, did not report long COVID more frequently than seronegative children.

There was one from the US as well which I am struggling to find, but there is evidence out there out people suffering from "Long COVID" who have never been infected in the first place - which does actually make sense, as a lot of the symptoms (brain fog, fatigue, depression) tie in quite closely with being locked in your house for months on end. Also worth bearing in mind that at this point, LC is a self diagnosed condition, so whilst there are also very good medical reasons for it which I'll come to, it can be a minefield to determine the genuine cases, especially when at the last count there were over 200 possible symptoms for it.

And as anyone who's watched House will know, if there are 200 symptoms and no clear cause, it's probably lupus

However in medical terms there is a very compelling explanation, that the "true" Long COVID sufferers have had a previous Epstein-Barr infection, which we know better as Glandular Fever. EBV is an absolute pig of a virus which your body never really gets rid of - I was in hospital with it when I was 9, didn't fully recover until I was 10, then had a relapse when I was about 19 and lost another 6 months to it.

Epstein-Barr virus reactivation may be the cause of long COVID symptoms

Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) reactivation resulting from the inflammatory response to coronavirus infection may be the cause of previously unexplained long COVID symptoms -- such as fatigue, brain fog, and rashes -- that occur in approximately 30% of patients after recovery from initial COVID-19...

www.news-medical.net

 

[Scouse]

As the article says:

nobody doubts the existence of long COVID in children

And glandular fever is hewugely common - so if it's predicated on that + a covid infection that it makes sense that huge swathes of the population do have long covid and that their symptoms are very very real.

But this is all hypothesis - and the study you quote says clearly in the abstract that if further studies confirm an actual link then there may be potential helpful treatment pathways available. With actual drugs that are used to treat actual real symptoms.

BTW - Covid is much more of a pig of a virus than glandular fever. Estimates sit around about 90% of the population of the world having an EBV infection. If that was the case with Covid then we'd be burning bodies in piles like we did with cows + BSE.

 

[Moriath]

Struggling to hear the audio but I'm assuming this is Prof Dingwall on Newsnight last night talking about Long COVID, and how there's a large psychosomatic element to it? I've seen various loons on Twitter calling him an arse for it, but there are a couple of studies out there which back it up:

From Switzerland - Long-term symptoms after SARS-CoV-2 infection in school children: population-based cohort with 6-months follow-up



There was one from the US as well which I am struggling to find, but there is evidence out there out people suffering from "Long COVID" who have never been infected in the first place - which does actually make sense, as a lot of the symptoms (brain fog, fatigue, depression) tie in quite closely with being locked in your house for months on end. Also worth bearing in mind that at this point, LC is a self diagnosed condition, so whilst there are also very good medical reasons for it which I'll come to, it can be a minefield to determine the genuine cases, especially when at the last count there were over 200 possible symptoms for it.

And as anyone who's watched House will know, if there are 200 symptoms and no clear cause, it's probably lupus

However in medical terms there is a very compelling explanation, that the "true" Long COVID sufferers have had a previous Epstein-Barr infection, which we know better as Glandular Fever. EBV is an absolute pig of a virus which your body never really gets rid of - I was in hospital with it when I was 9, didn't fully recover until I was 10, then had a relapse when I was about 19 and lost another 6 months to it.

Epstein-Barr virus reactivation may be the cause of long COVID symptoms

Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) reactivation resulting from the inflammatory response to coronavirus infection may be the cause of previously unexplained long COVID symptoms -- such as fatigue, brain fog, and rashes -- that occur in approximately 30% of patients after recovery from initial COVID-19...

www.news-medical.net

it is him. But the point i was picking up on is that theres only 3 ways to come out of a pandemic. And all over them end up having to open up and expose the population to the disease. It just depends how you want to do It.

he said the government had done its best to mitigate the effects with the vaccination program. And now opening up.

the other ways were open from the beginning or close society off for much longer so you seep the disease through the population.

and that the zero covid stance of aussie and new zealand is just a delaying tactic and eventually they are going to have to open up.

yeah the sound didnt pick up well.

 

[Bodhi]

As the article says:

And glandular fever is hewugely common - so if it's predicated on that + a covid infection that it makes sense that huge swathes of the population do have long covid and that their symptoms are very very real.

But this is all hypothesis - and the study you quote says clearly in the abstract that if further studies confirm an actual link then there may be potential helpful treatment pathways available. With actual drugs that are used to treat actual real symptoms.

BTW - Covid is much more of a pig of a virus than glandular fever. Estimates sit around about 90% of the population of the world having an EBV infection. If that was the case with Covid then we'd be burning bodies in piles like we did with cows + BSE.

Not sure where I doubted the existence of Long COVID in children tbh? I just pointed out a study that suggests if someone is presenting with Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome, it's probably sensible to check that they've had the virus in the first place.

BTW - I completely disagree with your assessment of EBV versus SARS2. EBV put me in hospital, SARS2 didn't. EBV took a year to get over, SARS2 didn't. EBV has been linked to many cancers, SARS2 hasn't.

 

[Scouse]

and that the zero covid stance of aussie and new zealand is just a delaying tactic and eventually they are going to have to open up.

But they'll open up post-vaccination and will have a couple of hundred deaths instead of a hundred and thirty thousand.

One hundred and thirty thousand.

 

[Scouse]

BTW - I completely disagree with your assessment of EBV versus SARS2.

Well, you've been wrong all year so I won't lose any sleep over that.

 

[Bodhi]

it is him. But the point i was picking up on is that theres only 3 ways to come out of a pandemic. And all over them end up having to open up and expose the population to the disease. It just depends how you want to do It.

he said the government had done its best to mitigate the effects with the vaccination program. And now opening up.

the other ways were open from the beginning or close society off for much longer so you seep the disease through the population.

and that the zero covid stance of aussie and new zealand is just a delaying tactic and eventually they are going to have to open up.

yeah the sound didnt pick up well.

Ah gotcha - can't disagree with any of that, but then Prof Dingwall's always been one of the more rational Government advisors during this.

It is incredibly funny watching the Zero COVID loons on Twitter try to have a go at him for saying such things and not being a virologist, whilst at the same time hanging on Prof Pagel's every word. That's Prof Pagel, who is a mathematician.

 

[Bodhi]

Well, you've been wrong all year so I won't lose any sleep over that.

Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment tbh.

 

[Scouse]

"Don't shutdown! People are killing themselves in droves! More suicides than deaths from covid!!!!!1oneeleven!!!!!"

...

 

[Bodhi]

"Don't shutdown! People are killing themselves in droves! More suicides than deaths from covid!!!!!1oneeleven!!!!!"

...

If you can't make your point without misrepresenting mine, I shall rest my case.

 

[Scouse]

If you can't make your point without misrepresenting mine, I shall rest my case.

We argued extensively. I think that was pretty accurate.

 

[Raven]

I don't believe that for one second.

 

[Scouse]

I don't believe that for one second.

Which bit? The arguing, or the accuracy?

 

[Bodhi]

We argued extensively. I think that was pretty accurate.

Makes your inability to grasp the argument that if more people are lost through suicide and deaths of despair than were saved by lockdown then it was a shit idea even more inexplicable.

I can use words of one syllable next time if you like?

 

[Scouse]

Makes your inability to grasp the argument that if more people are lost through suicide and deaths of despair than were saved by lockdown then it was a shit idea even more inexplicable.

But they weren't. And the preliminary evidence (provided in response to your assertion) showed that we were down on 2019, not up.

As pointed out above:

"Don't shutdown! People are killing themselves in droves! More suicides than deaths from covid!!!!!1oneeleven!!!!!"

...

So, I say again: I was accurate.

 

[Bodhi]

But they weren't. And the preliminary evidence (provided in response to your assertion) showed that we were down on 2019, not up.

As pointed out above:


So, I say again: I was accurate.

Accurate using meaningless evidence, considering the ONS themselves said the numbers couldn't be used for analysis due to delays at coroners, who had at least a 12 month backlog to work through.

Still, if you know better than the ONS - which I have absolutely no doubt that in your own mind you do - crack on.

 

[Scouse]

Accurate using meaningless evidence, considering the ONS themselves said the numbers couldn't be used for analysis due to delays at coroners, who had at least a 12 month backlog to work through.

Still, if you know better than the ONS - which I have absolutely no doubt that in your own mind you do - crack on.

Oh look - 4906 suicides in 2020, according to the ONS (provisional data, April 2021). Less than the 5600 a year average. But maybe they'll be twenty six times off in their counting (I mean, it's easy to mistake twenty six bodies for one body, right?) when they rubber-stamp the numbers.

Right now it looks like lockdowns are good for suicides. Maybe because depressives don't get upset by other people. Or that Covid gave them something bigger to think about than their own horrible problems and made them realise the world is connected and that there is shared experience.

Who knows eh? But either way, you're talking shit, and my assessment was accurate.

 

[Bodhi]

Oh look - 4906 suicides in 2020, according to the ONS (provisional data, April 2021). Less than the 5600 a year average. But maybe they'll be twenty six times off in their counting (I mean, it's easy to mistake twenty six bodies for one body, right?) when they rubber-stamp the numbers.

Right now it looks like lockdowns are good for suicides. Maybe because depressives don't get upset by other people. Or that Covid gave them something bigger to think about than their own horrible problems and made them realise the world is connected and that there is shared experience.

Who knows eh? But either way, you're talking shit, and my assessment was accurate.

And on the first page of your link:

The reduction in the number of suicides registered in 2020 from the previous year most likely reflects delays to coroner inquests, because of the impact of the coronavirus pandemic, as opposed to a genuine decrease in suicide.

Your own source disagrees with you. Awkward.

 

[Scouse]

Your own source disagrees with you. Awkward.

Prelim data. As I highlighted myself.

The big point is - do you think they're going to be out by a factor of 26?


Awkward you say? Not for me. Suicide has not been a problem during covid that in any way justifies not locking down.

5000 suicides do not justify many tens of thousands of preventable deaths.

 

[Bodhi]

Prelim data. As I highlighted myself.

The big point is - do you think they're going to be out by a factor of 26?


Awkward you say? Not for me. Suicide has not been a problem during covid that in any way justifies not locking down.

5000 suicides do not justify many tens of thousands of preventable deaths.

What is the relevance of being off by 26? Are you still being a bit of a div and claiming I said more would die of suicide than CV?

 

[Scouse]

Are you still being a bit of a div and claiming I said more would die of suicide than CV?

If you want to reverse your position then feel free. But you used exactly that argument in the first place (then voiced it here again).

 

[Wij]

Interesting comparison:

My Body, My Choice? The Paradox of Republican Anti-vaxxers

The same group that wants to make it impossible for you to end your pregnancy is furiously insistent that showing proof of vaccination should be illegal.

www.vogue.com

 

[Moriath]

Interesting comparison:

My Body, My Choice? The Paradox of Republican Anti-vaxxers

The same group that wants to make it impossible for you to end your pregnancy is furiously insistent that showing proof of vaccination should be illegal.

www.vogue.com

I understand the problem of making two sectors of society with things only accessible if you got a vaccine. Especially to those who cannot have it.

but that article is a bit ott. Lol.

 

[Moriath]

View: https://twitter.com/kathrynw5/status/1417832222019792904

 

[Moriath]

View: https://twitter.com/GYamey/status/1417651406727753728

 

[Scouse]

View: https://twitter.com/kathrynw5/status/1417832222019792904

That tweet is pretty disgusting tbh. Anti vaxxers are deluded, sure. But like lots of quacks we probably all know - a lot of them will be lovely but simply misguided people.

Death in terror is no way to go for anyone. Gloating about their own goals isn't a good look.

 

[Scouse]

View: https://twitter.com/GYamey/status/1417651406727753728

Why the anger? That's obvious: People don't like irrefutable evidence that shows they're wrong.

It holds for the subset of scientists that have to die before science can move on just as much as it does @Bodhi's wrong-headedness on all things covid or @Embattle's utter silence when the worst of the "scaremongering" around brexit was shown to be simply reasonable and obvious negative consequences.

Both of them, like the subset of scientists, will die before they see reason.

 

[Embattle]

That tweet is pretty disgusting tbh. Anti vaxxers are deluded, sure. But like lots of quacks we probably all know - a lot of them will be lovely but simply misguided people.

Death in terror is no way to go for anyone. Gloating about their own goals isn't a good look.

I don't think it is gloating.