Politics Coronavirus

[Gwadien]

Some nutter on my facebook is an anti-vaxer, it's mental the shit they come out with.

My mum was saying she has a colleague (remember she's an early help worker so she gives advice and such to families) who said that she wouldn't have the vaccine because of what happened in I Am Legend.

 

[Bodhi]

Good read at unherd around the vaccine, and why it's (obviously) good news:

Yes, the vaccine is really on its way

It looks like the Pfizer breakthrough is the real deal

unherd.com

Also speaks to the Oxford vaccine also, which we've reserved a large quantity of.

 

[Job]

Theyre back peddling akready, it wony help lockdown and theres going to be more.


I think they hope we'll just take matters into our own hands and ignore the rules.

New vaccines will not provide a ‘short cut’ out of lockdown, says deputy chief medical officer

Use the ‘Mum test’ to decide if jab is safe, says Prof Jonathan Van-Tam

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Scouse]

Theyre back peddling akready,

No they're not you fucking retard. They've been saying a vaccine won't be a magic bullet for stopping lockdowns since this whole thing started.

And it's news to you? What did you think? There's at best 1.5bn doses for a 7bn global population. And that's not factoring in the fact that you have to deliver, store and administer the vaccine to people in a sensible order. This takes time - and the virus isn't going to fucking nicely wait for us is it?

So we'll have a vaccine that's 90% effective that takes two shots (three weeks apart) for ~10% of the population (as per two shots).

And you think that's going to stop lockdowns?

 

[Job]

Its only for old people and health workers in 1st world countries.
It needs to be kept at -90 so that rules out most of the third world.

The simple fact is once its rolled out to health workers and the old then they'll have no excuse for not letting people get on with it than they can seriously offer to the population.

Those two groups combined are the reason we are in lockdown.
Under 50s are practically statistically immune, lockdown will collapse under its own weight, especially with Farage heading an anti lockdown push.

The damage to the countries economical , health and mental health is dwarfing covid and there are years of misery baked in.

 

[Ormorof]

Farage is known for his trustworthiness after all

 

[dysfunction]

Its only for old people and health workers in 1st world countries.
It needs to be kept at -90 so that rules out most of the third world.

The simple fact is once its rolled out to health workers and the old then they'll have no excuse for not letting people get on with it than they can seriously offer to the population.

Those two groups combined are the reason we are in lockdown.
Under 50s are practically statistically immune, lockdown will collapse under its own weight, especially with Farage heading an anti lockdown push.

The damage to the countries economical , health and mental health is dwarfing covid and there are years of misery baked in.

The majority of that is pure drivel

 

[Scouse]

The damage to the countries economical , health and mental health is dwarfing covid and there are years of misery baked in.

This is rolled out by a lot of people - without evidence.

I'd like to see you provide the evidence, other than anecdotal, for this. Because you can bet one thing - if this was actually the case then the Tories wouldn't be locking down any more.

The damage and death caused to the economy, health and mental health of rampant covid would FAR outweigh the cost of a few lockdowns, having to wear a mask and washing your hands properly.

Which is why we're locking down.

 

[Gwadien]

As if @Job ever used the phrase 'mental health' before covid, lol.

 

[Job]

A visualisation of contracts and the old boys network.

My Little Crony

 

[Job]

Oh and by the fucking obviously.

Over 80% of Pfizer vaccine doses already sold to world’s richest countries

Equitable distribution of Covid-19 vaccines globally would prevent 61 per cent of subsequent deaths, compared to 33 per cent of deaths avoided if doses are shared with rich nations first, research shows

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Overdriven]

Oh and by the fucking obviously.

Over 80% of Pfizer vaccine doses already sold to world’s richest countries

Equitable distribution of Covid-19 vaccines globally would prevent 61 per cent of subsequent deaths, compared to 33 per cent of deaths avoided if doses are shared with rich nations first, research shows

www.independent.co.uk

Well.. Duh?

 

[Gumbo]

This is rolled out by a lot of people - without evidence.

I'd like to see you provide the evidence, other than anecdotal, for this. Because you can bet one thing - if this was actually the case then the Tories wouldn't be locking down any more.

The damage and death caused to the economy, health and mental health of rampant covid would FAR outweigh the cost of a few lockdowns, having to wear a mask and washing your hands properly.

Which is why we're locking down.

We're not locking down though are we? Unless you eat out all the time and have a beer after work every day, we're not locked down. Traffic is the same, department stores are open because in one corner they sell biscuits.

We are going to lock down, but we haven't yet, it's just bullshit so far. When there's 30k in hospital in 3 weeks or so, then we'll lock down properly.

 

[Gwadien]

I agree with @Gumbo the second lock down has been much more relaxed than the first one.

When I was driving to work through the first one the roads were completely dead and so far the roads have been even busier during this lockdown.

Tbh I think we need the nhs to be overwhelmed and for people to start dying preventable deaths in order for people to start to take it seriously again.

 

[Gumbo]

My disillusionment started the day of the new lockdown starting. The rules as posted on the .gov website were very clear about you must stay at home apart from for specific reasons. At my work we had a stream of people coming to do stuff which was not within the reasons. I'm friends with most of these customers too, so I could ask whether they knew what they were doing was against the new rules. It was a pretty even split between not knowing and not caring.

Then I went to a builders merchant to get some stuff for work. Normally, even with their well observed one in one out that they've had in place all summer, I'm there no more than 10 minutes. Took almost an hour on Tuesday. Huge queue of people picking up diy stuff, not tradespeople. Needing paint mixing or to buy 3 feet of skirting board which needed cutting etc. Then taking ages to pay rather than just book to accounts.

DIY is not on the list of legitimate reasons to leave your home.

On the news I heard about the massive store, The Range being open because they sell a few tins of biscuits. It's fucking carnage in there because they're a big draw for Christmas decorations.

Even pubs doing takeaway are actually just doing pavement beer gardens. Why not allow them to stay open, just only serve outdoors?

Meanwhile 590+ deaths yesterday, another 1500 admitted 5 days ago (latest figures) and 14,000 in hospital climbing fast.

We were able to unlock for the summer because of the way people observed lockdown 1. We'll be locked down harder soon with businesses forced to close which shouldn't have to because of the pisstaking happening now and it's going to last for a lot longer than necessary.

Good job Great British public for being dicks, and HMG for not having the balls to enforce it this time.

 

[Wij]

Blame Cummings and Johnson for backing him tbh.

Rules are for dopes apparently.

 

[Scouse]

We're not locking down though are we?

I don't know - I've not seen another human outside of zoom for two weeks.

It's been great

 

[Bodhi]

Living safely with respiratory infections, including COVID-19

Guidance for living safely with respiratory infections, including coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.gov.uk

You can leave home to buy things at shops which are permitted to open. For instance to buy food or medicine, or to collect any items - including food or drink - ordered through click-and-collect

Think you're confusing this time round with Lockdown 1 - you are permitted to leave the house to buy things at shops which are open.

 

[Scouse]

Blame Cummings and Johnson for backing him tbh.

Rules are for dopes apparently.

Yeah - there was a step change when Cummings went on his holiday jaunt and blind joyride.

The conversations turned almost overnight from compliance too "how do I get around this shit".

 

[Job]

And still lecturing everyone else about open borders and letting millions in.

Scouse casually scoots off to the mountains to be alone.

 

[Gumbo]

Living safely with respiratory infections, including COVID-19

Guidance for living safely with respiratory infections, including coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.gov.uk

Think you're confusing this time round with Lockdown 1 - you are permitted to leave the house to buy things at shops which are open.

Indeed, so in order to encourage people to stay at home, the Government shouldn't have allowed shops to open which sold non essential things.

I'm not a shop. I provide services for people. You're allowed to leave your home to shop, you're not allowed to leave your home to do the stuff that you'd do at my premises, but people are still doing it.

Because of this, the Government will be forced, in a few weeks, to close people like me down, even though we could work quite happily without people coming to our premises, if they'd only follow the rules..

 

[Gumbo]

Living safely with respiratory infections, including COVID-19

Guidance for living safely with respiratory infections, including coronavirus (COVID-19).

www.gov.uk

Think you're confusing this time round with Lockdown 1 - you are permitted to leave the house to buy things at shops which are open.

Oh and that bit that you've quoted comes under the heading
Essential activities

which you conveniently left out.

A bit of new skirting or some Eggshell Matt for the downstairs bathroom is not essential at present.

 

[Job]

My disillusionment started the day of the new lockdown starting. The rules as posted on the .gov website were very clear about you must stay at home apart from for specific reasons. At my work we had a stream of people coming to do stuff which was not within the reasons. I'm friends with most of these customers too, so I could ask whether they knew what they were doing was against the new rules. It was a pretty even split between not knowing and not caring.

Then I went to a builders merchant to get some stuff for work. Normally, even with their well observed one in one out that they've had in place all summer, I'm there no more than 10 minutes. Took almost an hour on Tuesday. Huge queue of people picking up diy stuff, not tradespeople. Needing paint mixing or to buy 3 feet of skirting board which needed cutting etc. Then taking ages to pay rather than just book to accounts.

DIY is not on the list of legitimate reasons to leave your home.

On the news I heard about the massive store, The Range being open because they sell a few tins of biscuits. It's fucking carnage in there because they're a big draw for Christmas decorations.

Even pubs doing takeaway are actually just doing pavement beer gardens. Why not allow them to stay open, just only serve outdoors?

Meanwhile 590+ deaths yesterday, another 1500 admitted 5 days ago (latest figures) and 14,000 in hospital climbing fast.

We were able to unlock for the summer because of the way people observed lockdown 1. We'll be locked down harder soon with businesses forced to close which shouldn't have to because of the pisstaking happening now and it's going to last for a lot longer than necessary.

Good job Great British public for being dicks, and HMG for not having the balls to enforce it this time.

Very true , Ive been dragged back into repairing boilers because my friend is snowed under, now hes asking me to go around and fix door hinges and bits of trim falling off while Im there.
So I dont want to fall out with him, but Im in BQ buying basically decorative items and nonones batting an eyelid.
Its another journey, increased chance of a work injury, more exposure time in a household.

It all adds up and tbh everyones doing it....

 

[Bodhi]

Oh and that bit that you've quoted comes under the heading
Essential activities

which you conveniently left out.

A bit of new skirting or some Eggshell Matt for the downstairs bathroom is not essential at present.

The heading of the section is neither here nor there, it specifically states that you can leave home to buy things from shops which are open. Sorry, but those are the rules being enforced, hence a trip to BnQ is absolutely fine.

Considering how few infections come from shopping, I really do fail to see the issue.

 

[Gumbo]

I honestly can't be arsed to argue, but dicks with attitudes such as yours are why this restriction period is going to be tightened and long lasting. That and the Governments continued inability to make things clear and allow small minded twats to look for loopholes.

Ah well.

 

[Bodhi]

Thought you were above the "Get proved wrong then flounce", personally. If it is specifically stated in the rules, it is not a loophole.

 

[Gumbo]

Thought you were above the "Get proved wrong then flounce", personally. If it is specifically stated in the rules, it is not a loophole.

Alright, I've got 5 minutes... I'm not sure that I've been proved wrong in anything that I've said? It really depends how you determine Essential, I believe a heading matters, you don't. Neither of us are lawyers or judges, although I'm led to believe that everything is being so badly written by the Government that hardly anything is likely to stand up anyway.

For those that won't click the link...

This is the full paragraph including heading. Headings are relevant in my opinion, they set out what the following sentences refer to.

Essential activities
You can leave home to buy things at shops which are permitted to open. For instance to buy food or medicine, or to collect any items - including food or drink - ordered through click-and-collect or as a takeaway, to obtain or deposit money (e.g. from a bank or post office), or to access critical public services (see section below).

Now the government probably made it deliberately ambiguous so that they didn't have to go down the route of enforcement, but it's clear to me that the leaving home to buy things at shops which are open refers to essential activity. Food/Medicine, banking, critical public services (my emphasis).

The government were naive enough to think that we would comply like we did the first time and that retailers and the public would assume that meant that you could shop for food/medicine, deal with essential banking or go to the doctors..

Where the Government are lax is in the shops which they are allowing to be open. If you have one tin of biscuits on the shelf, you can call yourself a food shop and be as open as you were a few weeks ago... See The Range. The Government are being shit because they are allowing this. The Welsh saw it, and while they fucked up on the Tampons they got the rest of it right and stopped the piss taking. I'd be cynical and say that the Government are prioritising the tax take over the spread of the virus, so perhaps not naive, but conniving.

Because they've been slack with this, deliberately or not, and the public and retailers have exploited it, things will have to get much tougher, the language will tighten and there will be a very short list of things permitted to open very soon.

What is clear is that unless you were an avid user of Restaurants, or planning a holiday, NOTHING has changed in how people are behaving, compared to 4 weeks ago. This will only have one effect on the spread, the increase in admissions, and the overwhelming of the hospitals.

The law states that you could be fined £200 for coming to my work and doing what these customers are doing, but they know that they won't be. There's no stick and people don't care about the carrot.. They might when deaths pass 2k a day, and the hospitals are completely overrun, but they aren't right now.

They could be lax with the rules and the enforcement in lockdown 1, because people largely volunteered to be compliant. The people aren't doing that any more so once again we are World Beating!



Please note my rant is mostly at the government, not the people doing the shopping which I would argue is non essential. People are clever, 'The People' are largely idiots and have to have it carefully spelled out for them. The government have done a piss poor job of that and the country will bear the consequences. More deaths than anywhere else, and more economic impact too. a double whammy of incompetence.

Also note, I'm normally one of the few capitalist tories with a small t on here.

 

[Scouse]

@Bodhi is technically right @Gumbo, which as @DaGaffer gives me shit for on a semi-regular basis: "being technically right is the best sort of right"

You can leave home to buy things at shops which are permitted to open.

So, you can. Technically.


Of course, it's wrong, and we all know it's wrong, but technically...

 

[Raven]

I have to go to B&Q tomorrow to pick up some wood. But it is pretty essential I build another desk and some shelving upstairs for home working.

 

[Bodhi]

That's the thing, I don't think it is wrong in the slightest - the only thing that is wrong is locking down when the previous Tier System was already working.

Shopping is not an especially risky activity in terms of disease spread. If you look at the PHE surveillance reports, the riskiest settings are Care Homes, Hospitals and Schools, none of which are especially affected by The Range selling some biscuits. Schools we can't do much about, but tightening up infection control in the first two would see huge benefits, especially in the number of Deaths considering how frail most people in care homes/already in hospital are - see Page 18-19 below:

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w46_FINAL.PDF

Looking at that I do questions the impact of closing down hospitality, considering how few outbreaks originate from there. And I definitely don't get why outdoor activities like golf, tennis, surfing etc have been banned.