Politics Coronavirus

[Scouse]

Defend this @Moriath:

How teenagers ended up operating crucial parts of England’s test and trace system | George Monbiot

As one whistleblower tells me, a vital public health service is being bungled by private contractors, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

The government has so far spent £12bn on test and trace. But, as a result of catastrophic mismanagement, it might as well have flushed this money down the toilet.

To put this in context, £12bn is more than the entire general practice budget. The total NHS capital spending budget for buildings and equipment is just £7bn. To provide all the children in need with free meals during school holidays between now and next summer term, which the government has dismissed as too expensive, is likely to cost about £120m: in other words, just 1% of the test and trace budget.

This isn't about pandemic planning. This is about programme management - a well-developed, well understood methodology for delivering outcomes in very tight timescales. And the Conservative Party is the ultimate stakeholder in this (aside from the public they're meant to serve) so the buck stops with them.

 

[Ormorof]

To quote the prime minister its been "spunked up the wall"

 

[Moriath]

Defend this @Moriath:

How teenagers ended up operating crucial parts of England’s test and trace system | George Monbiot

As one whistleblower tells me, a vital public health service is being bungled by private contractors, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

www.theguardian.com

This isn't about pandemic planning. This is about programme management - a well-developed, well understood methodology for delivering outcomes in very tight timescales. And the Conservative Party is the ultimate stakeholder in this (aside from the public they're meant to serve) so the buck stops with them.

We all know t&t isnt working. But it seems even in countries where it is supposed to be corona is increasing fast.
im not defending anything.

 

[Raven]

It's about £170 a head spent on track and trace that simply doesn't work...and that's cost so far.

A frightening amount of cost.

 

[Bodhi]

We all know t&t isnt working. But it seems even in countries where it is supposed to be corona is increasing fast.
im not defending anything.

Germany are in the process of giving up on it, asking infected people to speak to contacts themselves:


View: https://twitter.com/1nationtory/status/1321346247257718784?s=20


I mean most peeople with half a brain could probably tell you Contact Tracing an endemic respiratory virus with up to 80% of infections showing no symptoms was a bit of a fool's errand. Sadly having half a brain means you are overqualified to work for PHE/Whatever they're called now, so here we are, spunking money on shit that doesn't work.

 

[Gwadien]

Germany are in the process of giving up on it, asking infected people to speak to contacts themselves:


View: https://twitter.com/1nationtory/status/1321346247257718784?s=20


I mean most peeople with half a brain could probably tell you Contact Tracing an endemic respiratory virus with up to 80% of infections showing no symptoms was a bit of a fool's errand. Sadly having half a brain means you are overqualified to work for PHE/Whatever they're called now, so here we are, spunking money on shit that doesn't work.

I thought the South Koreans initially did really well because of track and trace and because they didn't throw their plans in the bin before the pandemic hit?

I think that's the most telling of the countries that have handled it well, those that were actually prepared for it.

 

[Scouse]

We all know t&t isnt working. But it seems even in countries where it is supposed to be corona is increasing fast.
im not defending anything.

Yes you are. You're pointing at other countries in whatabouttery.

The've shat 15 billion quid into the hands of their mates and delivered nothing. There ARE other countries where track and trace are a brilliant success. So why not us?

Fifteen billion.

But tories gonna vote tory eh?

 

[Bodhi]

I thought the South Koreans initially did really well because of track and trace and because they didn't throw their plans in the bin before the pandemic hit?

I think that's the most telling of the countries that have handled it well, those that were actually prepared for it.

I'm not 100% on South Korea, I know Japan used it to good effect, however they focused on clusters and the vulnerable. It was a far more targeted approach than the blanket contact tracing we're doing now, focusing on infectious people rather than anyone who tested positive (the two are not the same). I do agree that countries that are used to nasty respiratory diseases hopping over the border from China were better prepared for this particular disease than the Western world was - however I'd wager if it was a flu based illness our plan would have been top notch.

 

[Raven]

I went to a pub on Friday and the girl at the door told to me to scan the QR thingy but if I didn't have the app, don't worry about it.

 

[Job]

You seem to love these judges.
So is he right or wrong.

Covid measures will be seen as 'monument of collective hysteria and folly' says ex-judge

Jonathan Sumption, former British supreme court justice, slams ‘cavalier use of coercive powers’ and ‘loss of freedom’

www.google.com

 

[Gwadien]

I'm not 100% on South Korea, I know Japan used it to good effect, however they focused on clusters and the vulnerable. It was a far more targeted approach than the blanket contact tracing we're doing now, focusing on infectious people rather than anyone who tested positive (the two are not the same). I do agree that countries that are used to nasty respiratory diseases hopping over the border from China were better prepared for this particular disease than the Western world was - however I'd wager if it was a flu based illness our plan would have been top notch.

IIRC South Korea had a pretty weird approach, they had people monitoring individuals and then using phone software and even CCTVs to manually work out who they had been in contact with the person with it.

I disagree with your second point though - I think that you have a plan for a pandemic, period. Like having systems in place that we've had to think up on the spot and have turned out to be pretty shit.

 

[Embattle]

Also T&T can't overcome attitude, that is different from country to country and has a big effect on covid reproduction rates imho.

A lot of countries have examples where people who lead seem unable to follow basic guidelines, from Dominic Cummings to that ex SNP member to the Belgium prince but the list is long and will continue to grow.

Walking down the park with our dogs is another example, the rule of 6 simply doesn't apply to teens.

My mum and dad noticing another age group that doesn't seem to follow the rules well was their own, late 60s and beyond.

 

[Gwadien]

Also T&T can't overcome attitude, that is different from country to country and has a big effect on covid reproduction rates imho.

A lot of countries have examples where people who lead seem unable to follow basic guidelines, from Dominic Cummings to that ex SNP member to the Belgium prince but the list is long and will continue to grow.

Walking down the park with our dogs is another example, the rule of 6 simply doesn't apply to teens.

My mum and dad noticing another age group that doesn't seem to follow the rules well was their own, late 60s and beyond.

Kids in schools are back to normal, but they're in year bubbles, so if you see kids out and about in groups of kids their own age, they probably are in the same bubble anyway, so would be pointless to tell them not to.

 

[Embattle]

This is after school, looking at the groups and then the lack of social distancing these are more like friends than school bubbles.

 

[Gwadien]

This is after school, looking at the groups and then the lack of social distancing these are more like friends than school bubbles.

How do you know they're not from the same school?

This is the problem though, we've given kids a free pass not to socially distance at school, but when it comes to their own time they're told they can't.

Makes no sense to me, needs to be one or the other.

Also applies for adults working in industries where they can't socially distance - allow them to socialise in the same groups somehow.

 

[Moriath]

Yes you are. You're pointing at other countries in whatabouttery.

The've shat 15 billion quid into the hands of their mates and delivered nothing. There ARE other countries where track and trace are a brilliant success. So why not us?

Fifteen billion.

But tories gonna vote tory eh?

No i said its crap and it doesnt work. But those with supposed working systems like Germany cant work it either. otherwise their countries wouldnt be getting a second wave either

Thats not saying ours was any where near working. because we are crap. I not sat in and watched what happens when something is reported so i cannot say where. Just that it is ineffective.

oh and once i agree with @Bodhi how can you effectively track and trace people with no symptoms unless you got in at day 0.

 

[Embattle]

How do you know they're not from the same school?

This is the problem though, we've given kids a free pass not to socially distance at school, but when it comes to their own time they're told they can't.

Makes no sense to me, needs to be one or the other.

Also applies for adults working in industries where they can't socially distance - allow them to socialise in the same groups somehow.

I don't but there was more than one uniform and also nearly double the rule of 6.

 

[Gwadien]

I don't but there was more than one uniform and also nearly double the rule of 6.

They sit in groups of 30 at school.

I understand what you're saying but getting pissy at kids for not following the rules when they're so unclear is silly.

It's like the number one thing you learn in education - if you don't have very clear rules and consequences for kids youre fucked.

 

[Scouse]

No i said its crap and it doesnt work. But those with supposed working systems like Germany cant work it either.

Whataboutery again. Practically the same post.

What germany can't do doesn't let us off the hook.

You're steadfastly ignoring countries that have done it well - because it CAN be done well. So why aren't we one of them?

Buck stops with the Tories. And you, as a voter, need to hold them accountable.

 

[Embattle]

The basics of the rules aren't that complicated, at least not the bits that most people seem to ignore just before stating the rules are complicated.

As for the school bubbles they are there simply to allow children to carry on learning, but the issue is if one person from a bubble then mixes with a person from another then they easily increase the possible reproduction rate of the virus.

This is an unprecedented event in modern times which gives governments some leeway but the current government passed that a while ago and mainly by self inflicted wounds and silly promises.

 

[Scouse]

This is an unprecedented event in modern times

Fundamentally disagree.

This isn't only not unprecedented - we've had similar outbreaks of pandemia, and we've had clear unequivocal guidance on exactly how to prepare for exactly this sort of thing.

There's nothing unprecedented about it. Other countries have prepared, bought the PPE, developed their testing regime, made the legal changes required so track and trace can be done on a democratic footing, developed their apps and were READY.

If we were in the 18th Century and we had to set sail to get to the other side of the world I'd give us a bit of leeway - news can travel slowly. But we live in time of instant communication - and scientists have been screaming, on the basis of past pandemics, that this is a CERTAINTY - and our government failed to prepare.

Government's first job is to keep it's people safe.

First. Job.

 

[Moriath]

Whataboutery again. Practically the same post.

What germany can't do doesn't let us off the hook.

You're steadfastly ignoring countries that have done it well - because it CAN be done well. So why aren't we one of them?

Buck stops with the Tories. And you, as a voter, need to hold them accountable.

Test and trace had to be tried. It was tried. We couldnt get it to work.

i dont think any other party would have had any better success. But no point talking to you about it.

 

[Moriath]

France to have second national lock down. Oh how well they controlled the virus.

Coronavirus: Macron declares second national lockdown in France

The tough new curbs on travel, businesses and gatherings are aimed at tackling a Covid-19 surge.

www.bbc.co.uk

stop all this political point scoring. Labour backed Tories in every step. Its not a political issue its a national emergency that requires everyone working together. Something failed and some worked.
everything will come out in the wash. But until we stop 20/20 vision with hind sight And start dealing with where we are now more time is going to be wasted. And tbh i dont care what you think @Scouse but you seem to care what i think as you keep asking me.

 

[Scouse]

Test and trace had to be tried. It was tried. We couldnt get it to work.

i dont think any other party would have had any better success. But no point talking to you about it.

If other countries can get it to work, why not us?

 

[Moriath]

If other countries can get it to work, why not us?

Cause we is shite ... ok

 

[Embattle]

Well least I can finally go to bed after picking up my sister from A&E.

She has been coughing for a couple of weeks hence why she had that covid test the other week which turned up negative, so the doctor gave her some antibiotics since she had pleurisy in the past. They weren't working so they gave her stronger ones the other day but she got so bad this evening she rang 111 who after some questions decided to send an ambulance.

Once the ambulance arrived they checked her over and wanted to get in contact with an out of hours GP, sadly they couldn't so had to take her to hospital. In essence it seems they try where possible to keep people out of A&E.

So 4 hours after going in and with a Covid test, blood gasses, ECG, xray later all negative they stuck her on a nebuliser and put it down to another virus. She has to contact her GP to get something to put in a nebuliser at home and get plenty of rest.

Fun, fun, fun.

 

[Embattle]

Ironically she was in the same hospital as our mum who had a knee replacement operation yesterday.

 

[Raven]

While we may well be doing slightly better than mainland Europe, we should be doing a hell of a lot better due to the obvious advantages that we have.

That being said, the way it is heading I think it is inevitable that we end up with another national lockdown, ideally that would be over the xmas break but I don't think we can hold out that long. What we are doing now just isn't working, the daily numbers speak for themselves.

Months and months of soft measures will be much harder on the economy than a short, sharp pause for a couple of weeks.

 

[Scouse]

That sucks @Embattle. Hope she's ok.

 

[Scouse]

Yep @Raven. (Apart from the xmas bit).

Early hard lockdown of a few weeks. Close the borders. Like France - you need to fill a form out to leave your house.

That should reduce the numbers dramatically, then you ensure your track and trace is very robust.

Oh. Wait.