Clarifications

[skile]

To start off with. Sorry for this late reply, it's due to that this thread has turned in to pure boredom, and now when I'm on a break in school and obviosly bored I'll reply . I'll try to make neutral and less offending to keep this very bad thread passive.
This boredom comes from that I repeat and repeat and repeat, just no point in that in the long run.

The following text will probably result in clarifications and repeating.

"And yet again you’re really confusing the issue. An unbuffed inf can solo a RR3 champ. Ok. (Problem with Inf being too strong by your logic)
Buffed SB can take down tanks, and grps with tanks. Ok. (Buff problem)
Unbuffed SB don’t take on tanks and don’t kill solo….. (SB problem due to them being too weak unbuffed)

So the solution is to nerf assassins????

You need to rethink your logic here. Is the problem buffs or assassins?"

I'm not talking about SB's in most of my post. Why SB's are mentioned often is because they have one heck of a great buffrelgion and they seem to be a legion out in emain everyday. They block the maingates and destroy minstrels and scouts solo (not sbhunting) rvsraction in gorge and mid-borderkeep.

I've been trying some melee duels, and I've won vs a rr4+ inf cause I got dotproc in on my first swing. But I also lost by great numbers vs Belthazor. And in RvsR action, even if it's very hard to judge since most are buffed. It's harder to judge skill in emain than in ingame duels (this is a joke imo, it's so boring and wrong).

The thing is. Infs are more effective vs me in melee than tanks are. I go even out with a paladin. The infs seem way more lethal and tanks are vs me. This is wrong in game logics. A class with no stealth is less lethal in duel than a class with stealth. This is what troubles me. These duels are based on no PA and no stun.

As Landshark says, a inf should be able to kill a scout in melee. But this is not balanced, due to TS timer of 30 minutes and See hidden always active and Camo is not a good option really.

How would a situation be without See Hidden and TS? Lot of sneakers out there, prob close to eachother. And when we find eachother, what happens? Either the assasin gets his PA in and stun. I'm dead meat, I'm ok with that. No problem. But if he missed PA. Should he be able to beat me 99% of the times? Na not really, here the scouts should have the upperhand. With shadowzerkers and mercinfils the PA is not important anymore. They win eventhough, and vs tanks. Only equal fight they have is towards eachother.

To add upp. At the moment assasins have the upperhand vs archers. They shouldn't. Maybe they should in melee, but not overall. It's way out of balance and needs to be fixed.

The assasin classes seem quite balanced in perspective. But the terms "shadowzerk" and "mercinfil" should not excist. Thats my whole point.

Archers and Assasins towards eachother = 50/50 on chance to win. Not counting zergs and buffs. I hardly think it's like this atm.

 

[herjulf]

So...

Assasains should be some kind of....
cloth wearer killer only, and not be able to take anything stronger then a mage....
If they can they need to be nerfed, cuz tanks shouldnt be able to get killed, even though they "crit" from stealthed, and use their by "loki" given ability to sneak and "crit".

:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

U were owned and had to whine hadent u.

And yes just cuz some get purge and break your slam, they are overpowered.
They should not be able to take an archer god forgive, that they should be able to do that omg, nerf.

An infil/ns/sb has to put alot of time in getting the right setup for a kill.

What do a sniper have to do, to kill a sb/infil/ns?
TS, aim CRIT goodbye.
And same goes to tanks, a few more shots, then maybe the last finished by melee.
(IP not counted in into this scenario) but then again sb/infil/ns dont have IP do they.

 

[lofff]

And yet again you’re really confusing the issue. An unbuffed inf can solo a RR3 champ. Ok. (Problem with Inf being too strong by your logic)

lol? no?

uhmm... they cant.



And tbh assasins classes dont need any nerfing, just nerf the buffbots... but.. that wont happen ever, buffbot user = 2x normal user incoming. Mythic loves buffbots.
Live with it.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by herjulf
So...

Assasains should be some kind of....
cloth wearer killer only, and not be able to take anything stronger then a mage....
If they can they need to be nerfed, cuz tanks shouldnt be able to get killed, even though they "crit" from stealthed, and use their by "loki" given ability to sneak and "crit".

:sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping:

U were owned and had to whine hadent u.

look for 1 more minute and think? he is a scout and is talking about assasin vs archer not with tanks . But rest dunno what u can do with this thread, prolly just going to be nerf assasin and we archers are gimped

 

[Aule Valar]

let us consider these classes you speak of
assasins - designed to get up close to the enemy without being seen, then kill them quickly and quietly at close range

archer designed to kill things quickly, and nastily at long range
note the long range bit here

yes archers are hybrids, but you don't see casters wondering why they can't beat up assasins in close combat, because they know they exist only to kill from range
scouts just haven't got this into their head yet (admitidly this may be because mythic took away their ability to kill from range, but thats not the point, er)

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by skile

Archers and Assasins towards eachother = 50/50 on chance to win. Not counting zergs and buffs. I hardly think it's like this atm.

Speak to Shar, Arcthic, Jerigot...

unbuffed vs unbuffed, or buffed vs buffed, they do damn well.

Only reason i beat them, is because i will only attack those in particular when my purge is up.





People always assume if they lose regulary, it's somthing to do with the class. Archers do need a little help, but seriously, there are some damn good archers out there (from all 3 realms) that do fine.

 

[skile]

Uhm. This post was meant to a reply of another thread. Was a bit confused atm I wrote this and it resulted in a thread. Move this to
"Constructive Stealth RvR Query" if possible.

Anyways, If the admins don't move it. Read "Constructive Stealth RvR Query" to understand why and what I'm saying .

 

[skile]

Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos


Speak to Shar, Arcthic, Jerigot...

unbuffed vs unbuffed, or buffed vs buffed, they do damn well.

Only reason i beat them, is because i will only attack those in particular when my purge is up.





People always assume if they lose regulary, it's somthing to do with the class. Archers do need a little help, but seriously, there are some damn good archers out there (from all 3 realms) that do fine.

All buffed .

 

[Carlos Bananos]

and loff is right, unbuffed assasin has near no chance on a 50 tank, unless they kite with Snare + DoT, then Debuff + DoT, then Disease + Dot...repeate etc through IP, FA2.

^^ takes far too much time, zerg will have overrun you both by that time

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Re: Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by skile


All buffed .

But so are the assasins they're fighting, and beating.

 

[skile]

Originally posted by Aule Valar
let us consider these classes you speak of
assasins - designed to get up close to the enemy without being seen, then kill them quickly and quietly at close range

archer designed to kill things quickly, and nastily at long range
note the long range bit here

yes archers are hybrids, but you don't see casters wondering why they can't beat up assasins in close combat, because they know they exist only to kill from range
scouts just haven't got this into their head yet (admitidly this may be because mythic took away their ability to kill from range, but thats not the point, er)

You are misunderstanding, or you missread. This is what I am saying = what is a stealthsituation suppost to look like? When do archers and assasins face eachother, can they should be OVERALL equal towards eachother. Problem is they meet in melee, but with see hidden removed archers aren't chased down and PA'd. Assasins will spot them by chance, or the other way around.

It goes to melee, but again. Looking at my point, archers and assasins should be equal when they face eachother. This only leads to the point = archers must be able to beat and assasin melee, BUT only if the assasin misses what is suppost to be his advantage, the PA and stun. If the assasin miss these the archer should win.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by skile

This only leads to the point = archers must be able to beat and assasin melee, BUT only if the assasin misses what is suppost to be his advantage, the PA and stun. If the assasin miss these the archer should win.

Thats wrong though, not all assasins spec for PA, it's like saying a Skald/Minstrel who doesn't spec for the Last DD (46+ spec) shouldn't be able to beat similar classes without getting thier DD in.

whether your speaking both the scout and shadowblade buffed, or the scout and shadowblade unbuffed (i use this cos im a SB) i can't just run upto a scout and start meleeing, it points to left axe, a very powerfull skill..for the 1st three rounds, once im OOE after 3-4 Doublefrosts, i've done about 900-1100 damage, then, im fighting unstyled, and unstyled left axe is TERRIBLE, (all the damage from LA is about 70% Style damage)

So i do often 'have to' get a PA + CD in to beat a scout with ease, just like a scout has to get slam in to beat me with ease, if neither of us get our move in, then it's always a very close fight.

Archers should be natural snipers (bladeturn issue, not assasin) so melee shouldn't be thier strong point..

where as melee IS assasins strong point, and only form of offence. So when it come down to the classes, assasins should out melee archers.
the only change that would justify Archers being able to outmelee assasins, would be if i could PA from 2200 range


dont get me wrong, i'm not saying archers dont need help, but Archer Vs Assasin atm is pretty fair.

In general that is, on excalibur the assasin population is about 4x as big as the archer pop, but thats only population imbalances, not class balances

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by skile

It goes to melee, but again. Looking at my point, archers and assasins should be equal when they face eachother. This only leads to the point = archers must be able to beat and assasin melee, BUT only if the assasin misses what is suppost to be his advantage, the PA and stun. If the assasin miss these the archer should win.

Okay. Where on earth do you get these silly ideas??

Let's look at my character and you character.

I have specced 50 in Thrust, 29 in DW, 44 in CS, 32 in Envenom. That's 3224 spec points, (plus a hell of a lot of RR and equipment) all targetted for close-up melee battles.

To say that the only thing those spent points should give me is a ~500 point opening damage style plus a follow-up stun is rediculous. Assassins (from all realms) are specced for high damage in close combat, with added effects of hindering and additionally damaging their opponents with poisons.


Now, let's look at a typical Scout template (not saying it's how everyone is specced, or how you are specced, just it's a fairly common one).

46 Longbow,
42 Shield,
29 Slash,
33 Stealth.


Now, how do you expect that sort of template to be able to win in melee vs. an assassin? Even if they drop LB/Stealth down to raise weapon into the mid-30s, they are still going to have less than 800 weaponskill with the sword in their hands. They are specced to do damage at range, not in melee.

Sure, they could maybe try to land slam and back up to shoot a couple of times, but that's not winning in melee.


The whole point is that archers are meant to win at range, assassins are meant to win in close combat.



(Oh, and unbuffed infs can indeed solo RR3 champs )

 

[Gekul]

You think you should be able to out melee an assasin without using your bow? That's ridiculous.

 

[Freppe^^]

I can't why you are whining bout the melee?
IMO its your bow that's need to be fixed, the fumbling , misses etc.

 

[Runolaz]

Originally posted by skile

The thing is. Infs are more effective vs me in melee than tanks are. I go even out with a paladin. The infs seem way more lethal and tanks are vs me. This is wrong in game logics. A class with no stealth is less lethal in duel than a class with stealth. This is what troubles me. These duels are based on no PA and no stun.

It 's wrong, because you view the game logics from your point of view. An Assassins is designed to land huge amout of dmg over a short period of time, they dont have the defensive power to sustain a prolonged figth. An Archer is first and formost an Archer and not a melee, if you spec the way most do. If you had specced a Scout with 42 Shield and 44+ Main hand then you would probably stand better vs an Assassin. Having said that you probably should have made a regulare tank.

To be a stealth Archer you have to sacrifice somthing, and that my friend is the ability to melee. Assassin have no ranged attack and in grp environmet their defensive abilities makes them soft targets.

Originally posted by skile

As Landshark says, a inf should be able to kill a scout in melee. But this is not balanced, due to TS timer of 30 minutes and See hidden always active and Camo is not a good option really.

A Scout with Slam (I about 99% have) is indeed a char to watch out for. If the scout get in the slam things can get uggly, but if not then yeah an Assassin will take down the Scout, cuz Scouts are mainly ranged figthers with ok h2h abilities, but the assassin on the otherhand is a specialiced h2h figther. TS is also a powerful tool, but best used when in grp's and not solo. Nothing is more iritating than getting TS and then have 2-3FG on my neck
.

Originally posted by skile

How would a situation be without See Hidden and TS? Lot of sneakers out there, prob close to eachother. And when we find eachother, what happens? Either the assasin gets his PA in and stun. I'm dead meat, I'm ok with that. No problem. But if he missed PA. Should he be able to beat me 99% of the times? Na not really, here the scouts should have the upperhand.

Even if they miss PA they should still have a good chance at killing you. I don't think your 99% is true I'm sure you have slammed some and killed them, but unless you make the slam you should probably die 99% of the time. An Assassin is after all a figther mend to get in close and your not. I think we have a situation that most assassins either don't spec SH or w8 to later RR, and judging from the Archers I've bumped into most of them have TS.

Originally posted by skile

To add upp. At the moment assasins have the upperhand vs archers. They shouldn't. Maybe they should in melee, but not overall. It's way out of balance and needs to be fixed.

Fail to see why they are not balanced. Assassin should have an advatage over a ranged figther class like Archers. Assassins use most of their spec points in offensive melee skilles. So there is simply nothig to be fixed.

Originally posted by skile

The assasin classes seem quite balanced in perspective. But the terms "shadowzerk" and "mercinfil" should not excist. Thats my whole point.

Why is that? SZ is a viable spec, but you sacrifice other things to be one. It is a viable spec for an assassin as it in fact is a close quarter-figther. Creating only 1 or 2 viable templates for SB IMHO would be boring. I enjoy my SZ, but I also see that in some situations I'm weaker than a 5-Spec or CB, but SZ overall fits my way of playing...an no its not about spamming DF, cuz actually I don't use it anymore

Originally posted by skile

Archers and Assasins towards eachother = 50/50 on chance to win. Not counting zergs and buffs. I hardly think it's like this atm.

Again Assassins are build purly for "gettin in there", thus should have a good chance of winning. I would say about 80/20, but it all depends on the spec. I've bumped into melee Rangers that are REALLY hard to take out, and I hade to restealth about 3 times before we were done. Was fun though, cuz the figth lasted almost 10 min

 

[belth]

Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by Runolaz
Why is that? SZ is a viable spec, but you sacrifice other things to be one. It is a viable spec for an assassin as it in fact is a close quarter-figther. Creating only 1 or 2 viable templates for SB IMHO would be boring. I enjoy my SZ, but I also see that in some situations I'm weaker than a 5-Spec or CB, but SZ overall fits my way of playing...an no its not about spamming DF, cuz actually I don't use it anymore

From 1.56 patch notes
The overall design goal of the assassin is to have them be able to defeat opponents using a combination of stealth and their "backstab" combat style chains.

SZ shouldn't be viable according to Mythic. Infilmerc lost a bunch of it's viability with IP removal and evade-capping, whereas I don't think SZ lost even 25% of what the corresponding Infiltrator template did.

Please post screenies of you SBs 2-shotting lvl50 infils in SC'd gear, btw.

 

[Trinilim]

Originally posted by herjulf

What do a sniper have to do, to kill a sb/infil/ns?
TS, aim CRIT goodbye.
And same goes to tanks, a few more shots, then maybe the last finished by melee.
(IP not counted in into this scenario) but then again sb/infil/ns dont have IP do they.

Hmm..

Truesight has been activated!
You prepare a critical shot..
You are ready to fire!
xxx Evades your attack!
You prepare a critical shot..
You are ready to fire!
You miss!
xxx hits you with his axe for 415 damage!
You prepare a normal shot..
You are interrupted!
xxx hits you with his axe for 189
xxx hits you with his axe for 130
you equip your sword
you equip your shield
You attack xxx with your shield
xxx evades your attack!
You attack xxx with your sword and hit for 78 damage!
xxx hits you with his axe for 175
xxx hits you with his axe for 150

so on and so forth.

oh yes, scouts literally OWN Sbs.. they need a nerf BADLY.

 

[Runolaz]

Re: Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by belth

SZ shouldn't be viable according to Mythic. Infilmerc lost a bunch of it's viability with IP removal and evade-capping, whereas I don't think SZ lost even 25% of what the corresponding Infiltrator template did.

Please post screenies of you SBs 2-shotting lvl50 infils in SC'd gear, btw.

Well I use the BSII-Snowsqual-Icy Brilliance combo so that is IMHO whithin the frase "backstab" combat style chain. I allways use it on mages, cuz of stun/mezz/root etc. I have never had IP in the first place.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Re: Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by belth




SZ shouldn't be viable according to Mythic. Infilmerc lost a bunch of it's viability with IP removal and evade-capping, whereas I don't think SZ lost even 25% of what the corresponding Infiltrator template did.

Please post screenies of you SBs 2-shotting lvl50 infils in SC'd gear, btw.

50 Scout in SC

50 RR5 Ranger in SC

50 Infil (not SC'd though)

i know u asked for infils, but scouts/rangers are on same hp table, and also (apparently ) resistant to slash.

i 2 shotted new Yog while her and lomald where attacking Gedan a few days ago but didn't get a pic.

also caught Kelidia in 2 doublefrosts (and the poi ticks between each swing ofc) at amg yesterday twice, but didn't get screenys

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Trinilim


Hmm..

Truesight has been activated!
You prepare a critical shot..
You are ready to fire!
xxx Evades your attack!
You prepare a critical shot..
You are ready to fire!
You miss!
xxx hits you with his axe for 415 damage!
You prepare a normal shot..
You are interrupted!
xxx hits you with his axe for 189
xxx hits you with his axe for 130
you equip your sword
you equip your shield
You attack xxx with your shield
xxx evades your attack!
You attack xxx with your sword and hit for 78 damage!
xxx hits you with his axe for 175
xxx hits you with his axe for 150

so on and so forth.

oh yes, scouts literally OWN Sbs.. they need a nerf BADLY.

If only it where like that.


and if i could hit for more than 90 on my offhand regulary i'd be more than pleased.

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos
and loff is right, unbuffed assasin has near no chance on a 50 tank, unless they kite with Snare + DoT, then Debuff + DoT, then Disease + Dot...repeate etc through IP, FA2.

^^ takes far too much time, zerg will have overrun you both by that time

takes 30sec, and then u have stealthed 3times too check if any infil pops / zerg inc....can't see how u think that is hard...? ;>

(well it helps when mid tank sits down too rest in middle of fight etc.....)

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Re: Re: Re: Clarifications

Originally posted by belth




SZ shouldn't be viable according to Mythic

Personally i agree, i dislike the playstyle of SZs, but if you wanna follow mythics descriptions..

From 1.56 patch notes
The overall design goal of the assassin is to have them be able to defeat opponents using a combination of stealth and their "backstab" combat style chains.

Does that mean you agree that DF should be removed as it enables infiltrators to take out 'any' class without using thier "backstab" combat chains?

Or are you just having a SZ whine and being hypocritical?

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by froler-mid




takes 30sec, and then u have stealthed 3times too check if any infil pops / zerg inc....can't see how u think that is hard...? ;>

(well it helps when mid tank sits down too rest in middle of fight etc.....)

not hard, just time consuming, with ip it usually takes more than 3 runs,

1st for snare + dot,
2nd for debuff + dot
3rd for disease + dot

thats about 1500 damage total (unless u PA each round, unless they're retarded they aint gonna stay still once thwey know your kiting)
thats 1500 damage assuming u leave 20 secs (3x20 = 60) for each dot to run it's whole course, and also assuming they dont resist anything, or purge your snare and slam you.


Then once thats done, they IP sp you need to repeate (Disease should make FA2 almost unnotisable)

thats 120+ seconds right there, assuming it goes like that each time.








We're still speaking unbuffed here right?

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by Carlos Bananos



not hard, just time consuming, with ip it usually takes more than 3 runs,

1st for snare + dot,
2nd for debuff + dot
3rd for disease + dot

thats about 1500 damage total (unless u PA each round, unless they're retarded they aint gonna stay still once thwey know your kiting)
thats 1500 damage assuming u leave 20 secs (3x20 = 60) for each dot to run it's whole course, and also assuming they dont resist anything, or purge your snare and slam you.


Then once thats done, they IP sp you need to repeate (Disease should make FA2 almost unnotisable)

thats 120+ seconds right there, assuming it goes like that each time.








We're still speaking unbuffed here right?

im speaking the tank is 'hunting' you, u stealth, stick ,PA every time.


Why do sbs have a hard time PA btw? ;>

(snare+dot, dot+PA, dot+PA , tank dead)

 

[Runolaz]

Hmm...thought I migth add that using Snowblind is way better than DF. The main reason is that DF suck up huge amount of END and the most dmging styles is Comeback-Frosty Gaze. Nothing more fun than landing 3xchains of the above b4 the victim comes out of stun .

Again most SZ uses BSII almost as much as any other Assassin uses PA, at least that is what i do.

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by froler-mid



im speaking the tank is 'hunting' you, u stealth, stick ,PA every time.


Why do sbs have a hard time PA btw? ;>

I see where your coming from, but Mid tanks are retarded, it's a million times easier to kite them.

Every alb tank i try kite, runs in circles while he 'hunts' me, so PA aint all that easy then.

but, this is generally high RR tanks (almost worked on Sigfi yesterday....twice..beat him both times but kiting didn't work)

because Low rr tanks are weak anyway

 

[Aussie-]

resist buffs at amg?
you SBs got buffbots at apk or smth?

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Runolaz
Hmm...thought I migth add that using Snowblind is way better than DF. The main reason is that DF suck up huge amount of END and the most dmging styles is Comeback-Frosty Gaze. Nothing more fun than landing 3xchains of the above b4 the victim comes out of stun .

Again most SZ uses BSII almost as much as any other Assassin uses PA, at least that is what i do.

a Detaunt hoping to evade?

 

[Carlos Bananos]

Originally posted by Aussie-
resist buffs at amg?
you SBs got buffbots at apk or smth?

I hide him in the trees


Nah, end regen = sprint from mtk to amg in about 1 min 30, so i got just over 3 mins of wublyness with end regen+resist buffs