Fact Christian Rapists

[Krazeh]

• It's not. Unless you can quote me a study proving otherwise, from what I've read it's between 22 and 40 times less likely for a priest to become a child abuser.

Do you have a source for this? And even if priests are less likely to become a child abuser isn't there the possibility that's negated by the larger number of children the child-molesting priests end up having contact with over their time with the Church?

 

[mycenae]

I thiink its very much more endemic in mainly male catholic institutions...ie priests fiddling with choir boys etc
Whilst I think its disgusting, I'm not convinced its THAT much more prevalent in catholic institutions than the rest of the country as a whole. Look at that ring of mothers and childminders earlier this year who had been taking horrid photographs of THEIR OWN CHILDREN and senging them to paedophile rings. There is a lot of nasty shit in this world which is constantly covered up for one reason or another.

 

[Scouse]

• Sports clubs, schools, youth movements e.a. are organisations too. And I'm inclined to think that especially in the past it was official policy there too to keep quiet about these things.

I don't think that's unreasonable - but if systemic child abuse and coverup was found at any of these organisations they'd be shut down.

• It's not. Unless you can quote me a study proving otherwise, from what I've read it's between 22 and 40 times less likely for a priest to become a child abuser.

The study I quoted says just that.

• Probably true, especially in the past. I think they're moving forward, though. At least in Belgium they've been pretty transparent about the whole thing, albeit unbearably slow.

Nothing "probably" about it. It's established fact.

The problem with this is that the two are intrinsically linked in roman catholic tradition, though.

Tradition is no excuse for keeping an evil and manipulative child-raping organisation together.

The catholic church has a "tradition" of covering up for priests it knows rape children....

Look at that ring of mothers and childminders earlier this year who had been taking horrid photographs of THEIR OWN CHILDREN and senging them to paedophile rings.

Yes, but we break those rings up and jail those culpable - especially on the organisational side. The authorities in this case are going after individual priests - not the evil organisation involved in covering up child rape and protecting child rapists...

 

[Krazeh]

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether or not child abuse exists outside the Catholic Church or what levels it exists at outside the Church. There is zero excuse for the Catholic Church to be involved in any sort of child sexual abuse, as an organisation it's actions should be beyond any sort of moral reproach. Covering up the actions of priests who've been put in a position of power and moral authority is not an action that's beyond moral reproach nor is something that should be treated differently due to it being a religious organisation.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well the very basis of "organisation raping children" goes, in all words of the line, against Jebus.

Jesus was an organisation hating anarchist, not a moneygrabbing kiddiefiddler.

In itself, that's already reason enough to disband it.

Scouse; would you stop there? Honestly just curious. Would you be happy if the pope domain was taken down from power, yet left with houses of worship etc?

 

[noblok]

Do you have a source for this? And even if priests are less likely to become a child abuser isn't there the possibility that's negated by the larger number of children the child-molesting priests end up having contact with over their time with the Church?

Not in English, I'm afraid. The statistics seemed to take into account the number of victims as well, though.

The statistics were as follows (for Germany, investigation by Hans-Ludwig Kröber):
- The Church has 600,000 priests or other functionaries (or 1,8% of the population)
- In 0,045% of the cases where child abuse is reported a priest e.a. is the suspect (since 1995). It is larger in the cases of conviction, explaining the "22 times less likely".

Obviously this relies on the cases which got to court, but as I've said before: cases of child abuse in families, sports clubs etc. don't always get to court either. I haven't seen much other proper research, though.

 

[noblok]

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter whether or not child abuse exists outside the Catholic Church or what levels it exists at outside the Church. There is zero excuse for the Catholic Church to be involved in any sort of child sexual abuse, as an organisation it's actions should be beyond any sort of moral reproach.

I agree. However, it's also inevitable that some people who are part of the church will do evil things.

The study I quoted says just that.

I must be blind, because I don't see that anywhere. In the BBC article I do find this, though: "But the report also estimates that one in 10 Dutch children have suffered some form of abuse, rising to one in five among those who had attended an institution - regardless of whether it was Catholic."

 

[old.Tohtori]

I must be blind, because I don't see that anywhere. In the BBC article I do find this, though: "But the report also estimates that one in 10 Dutch children have suffered some form of abuse, rising to one in five among those who had attended an institution - regardless of whether it was Catholic."

Worthy to note really, being abused and being in an institution does not mean cause and effect.

What i actually asked before, because if 1 in 10 is abused, it could as easily correlate to 50% of those 1 in 10 were in an institution.

 

[Krazeh]

I agree. However, it's also inevitable that some people who are part of the church will do evil things.

I agree, it is an inevitability. But the Church should have been doing it's utmost to find these people and bring them to justice, rather than covering them up to protect itself. As soon as the Church covers up even one case of child sexual abuse it becomes a party to that abuse and should be held responsible.

 

[noblok]

I agree and it's a black page in the church's history, as are the crusades, the inquisition etc. I do believe they're trying to set things straight now, though. Too late and too slow (as institutions always are), but we're moving forward.

 

[Krazeh]

Perhaps it's just me but I don't view a 'sorry for the child abuse but we're trying to fix it now' as sufficient grounds to sweep the issue under the carpet and let the Church go on it's merry way.

 

[soze]

Not sure i agree that the belief system of billions of people should be abolished. The Catholic Church really does need to wise up and start taking action against these priests rather than trying to handle it internally.

 

[Wij]

If you've not read this before...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/po...-sex-abuse-suit/2005/08/17/1123958097061.html

It's very handy being the head of a 'state'.

 

[Scouse]

Scouse; would you stop there? Honestly just curious. Would you be happy if the pope domain was taken down from power, yet left with houses of worship etc?

Tricky question there Toht. The problem with christianity is that it has an organisational heirarchy that's been reinforced by a couple of thousand years of tradition and plays on the human animal's propensity to follow leaders and align themselves with heirarchical organiational structures.

In the case of religions this is dangerous. Religions have no basis in reason or evidence and therefore man himself ends up as the ultimate arbiter of "truth".

This gives rise to all sorts of man-made beliefs about what is correct and incorrect and what is moral and immoral. That, allied with the power that large organisations have it can (and has/does) lead to such wonderful things such as sexual and intellectual repression, the covering up of child abuse, sectarian violence, the inquisition and religious war in general.

Spirituality = fine.

Common spirituality learned from others = very dangerous.


I'd definitely trash the church as an organisation and divorce any religious teachings from any and all schools. Beyond that I'd leave people free to make up their own minds - but I'd enshrine in law the right to speak your mind - whatever was on it and no matter how disgusting I personally found the ideas.

 

[Scouse]

I must be blind, because I don't see that anywhere. In the BBC article I do find this, though: "But the report also estimates that one in 10 Dutch children have suffered some form of abuse, rising to one in five among those who had attended an institution - regardless of whether it was Catholic."

I saw that in the amended news report too. And I'm happy to agree with it.

"Those who attended an institution" includes catholic institutions. And "rising to one in five" mean's it's TWICE as likely.

And as I've already made it clear that if we find it in schools/sporting institutions we shut those institutions down. I've also made it clear that the catholic church has worldwide reach and form for coverup.

Why should this institution, which we have proof has been covering up child-rape, which when given care of our children is TWICE as likely to harm our children sexually than the non-institutionalised norm, be immune?

 

[Punishment]

Athiests don't rape children, ever ?

News to me

 

[Scouse]

Athiests don't rape children, ever ?

News to me

Who said that Punishment? Show me and I'll join you in calling that person a cunt.

Or - fuck off with your utter garbage post

 

[Krazeh]

Athiests don't rape children, ever ?

News to me

Who said they don't? And what has what atheists do got to do with the systematic cover up of child abuse by the Catholic Church? Are you trying to imply that if atheists do it then it's fine for a religious organisation to do it?

 

[Punishment]

Im saying twisted child abusers will find a way, simply because the found a way to use an organisation to do it doesn't mean the problem is with the religion but with the individual

 

[Punishment]

Who said they don't? And what has what atheists do got to do with the systematic cover up of child abuse by the Catholic Church? Are you trying to imply that if atheists do it then it's fine for a religious organisation to do it?

Last time i checked individuals abuse children, not organisations

 

[DaGaffer]

I saw that in the amended news report too. And I'm happy to agree with it.

"Those who attended an institution" includes catholic institutions. And "rising to one in five" mean's it's TWICE as likely.

And as I've already made it clear that if we find it in schools/sporting institutions we shut those institutions down. I've also made it clear that the catholic church has worldwide reach and form for coverup.

Why should this institution, which we have proof has been covering up child-rape, which when given care of our children is TWICE as likely to harm our children sexually than the non-institutionalised norm, be immune?

I don't think that's actually true. Usually the individual abusers are prosecuted; I'm struggling to think of any organisation that's been closed down on these grounds.

The difference is that in secular organisations that may or may not attempt to cover up abuse is that the motivations for cover up are often personal, financial, reputational or whatever, but what they are not, is policy. This is the issue about the catholic church, that the default response is to cover up, defend and close ranks as a matter of course, and that policy comes from the very top. Which is why you have a point; I can't think of any single organisation with so many cases of abuse, and so many layers of bureaucracy specifically tasked with "managing" the issue. It doesn't really matter if a priest is individually statistically less likely to abuse a child, as long as the organisation he is part of has decided to cover it up.

 

[Krazeh]

Last time i checked individuals abuse children, not organisations

Yes they do, but it's organisations that cover it up and allow them to continue abusing children. And by doing so the organisation becomes just as responsible as the individual.

 

[DaGaffer]

Last time i checked individuals abuse children, not organisations

See my post above, organisations have more ways to hide and avoid punishment than individuals. If the Catholic church proactively threw every abusing priest it found onto the mercies of the criminal justice system, we probably wouldn't even be having the debate about "clerical abuse".

 

[Punishment]

Yes they do, but it's organisations that cover it up and allow them to continue abusing children. And by doing so the organisation becomes just as responsible as the individual.

Police/Local politicians also aided in all of this, alot of the abuse happenned in the 50's-early 90's when the world was alot different and the catholic church was let away with hell because of the ultra conservative Irish mindset at the time, arise the opportunist.

 

[Krazeh]

Police/Local politicians also aided in all of this, alot of the abuse happenned in the 50's-early 90's when the world was alot different and the catholic church was let away with hell because of the ultra conservative Irish mindset at the time, arise the opportunist.

None of which excuses the fact that the Catholic Church covered up child abuse. What anyone else did or whatever help the Church got doesn't alter anything about what they did to aid and cover up the actions of priests who were messing around with children in their care.

 

[DaGaffer]

Police/Local politicians also aided in all of this, alot of the abuse happenned in the 50's-early 90's when the world was alot different and the catholic church was let away with hell because of the ultra conservative Irish mindset at the time, arise the opportunist.

In the case of Ireland you'd be right, but the police and local politicians who covered up only did so to protect the reputation of their church, so it still comes back to the institution of the church itself that's at fault.

 

[Punishment]

Most Irish people i know don't even attend mass anymore, me included, you reap what you sow i guess.

Child rapists gonna be flocking to join scientology next so they can tell the kid's an alien told me to do it

 

[Huntingtons]

Where's "the rest of society" in all of this?

Priests in the catholic church did this. The catholic church covered it up.

The "rest of society" is disgusted and appalled - and was initially surprised (though we're not any more).


Like any "organisation" the church is culpable. And since it's guilty of rape on such a massive scale it should be disbanded - like any other organisation would be.

Well why punish the innocent priests and believers? how about this, its a crazy idea but listen. We punish the guilty within the legal boundaries that society put up for the crime and let the innocent practice their right to any religion they please. Society is a part of it coz were letting it happen

 

[Scouse]

None of which excuses the fact that the Pope covered up child abuse.

In the case of Ireland you'd be right, but the police and local politicians who covered up only did so to protect the reputation of their church, so it still comes back to the institution of the church itself that's at fault.

This.

It's institutionalised child abuse. The institution is the problem. It needs tearing down.

If Sony was enabling child abuse we'd disband the company, jail the directors and perpetrators and sell off the assets. We should do the same here.


If you give money in church on Sunday you're financially supporting an institution that enables and covers up child-rape.

 

[DaGaffer]

Well why punish the innocent priests and believers? how about this, its a crazy idea but listen. We punish the guilty within the legal boundaries that society put up for the crime and let the innocent practice their right to any religion they please. Society is a part of it coz were letting it happen

Still doesn't answer how you'll prosecute the pope and a large number of archbishops, bishops and others for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.