Fact Christian Rapists

[Scouse]

Tens of thousands, yep, that's tens of thousands, of children have suffered sexual abuse at the hands of the catholic church since 1945 by the phreaky Dutch wing of this evil sect.


Here's to me thinking that news of this latest atrocity won't shake the beliefs of a single christian or cause them to condemn the system they dearly love.

In fact, with a title like that not many of the christians on this forum will bother reading this - never mind post their justification for the continued existence of their organisation. A function of believers is protecting the batshit crazy stuff they believe in. In this case - Celibacy.

Celibacy = encouraging rape of the vulnerable

Based on a survey of more than 34,000 people, the report estimates that one in five children in Catholic institutions suffered abuse.

If this "institution" was a company then the government would jail the directors as they'd be legally culpable and shut the company down, selling its assets off.

We should kill the pope, burn the vatican and repatriate every church in the land and turn them all into theme pubs, nightclubs and brothels.

Men should have free and easy access to sex - lack of it turns them into monsters.

 

[Calaen]

I agree with most of that apart from the final comment, lack of sex certainly does not turn you into a monster at all.

 

[Scouse]

I agree with most of that apart from the final comment, lack of sex certainly does not turn you into a monster at all.

OK. Maybe "inability to relieve sexual frustration gives a much higher likelihood that a man will become a child rapist"?

Either way, we should be rioting against churches over this.

 

[old.Tohtori]

That last sentiment is also wrong, inability to relieve sexual frustration might cause some damaged individuals to go for rape, but child molesting takes a lot more then an untouched willy.

Aaanyway, there's a lot wrong with some churches, but i wouldn't go as far as remove all of it. Just police and remove rotten apples in accordance to law, like with any other people in the country you happen to be in.

Advocating killing, burning of churches though...not that much better.

How do those numbers correlate with the overall kiddiefiddling going around?

 

[caLLous]

It's a nice idea, apart from the killing bit, but it will never happen will it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I could get behind removing the organised cri...err...part of it, but i'd keep peoples right to religion and places of worship/convening.

 

[Scouse]

How do those numbers correlate with the overall kiddiefiddling going around?

Well, unless you're suggesting that the normal population sexually molests 1 in 5 of our children, very very very poorly.


Also, you're ignoring the point that it's systemic. It's endemic in the catholic church in all countries. If this was a corporation it would have been broken up long long ago.

Should we not break up an evil child-molesting organisation, just because they shout "oooh, religion"...?

Get real. It needs to be torn down.

I could get behind removing the organised cri...err...part of it, but i'd keep peoples right to religion and places of worship/convening.

So, you're reluctant to call the systemic sexual abuse of children by an organisation organised crime eh?

What if Apple raped children. Or Sony. Would you be reluctant to condemn them?


I'm not against freedom of worship - people can worship all they like. I'm against this evil organisation that rapes children all over the world.


Edit: I knew you'd pitch in Toht (which I'm glad of - it'd be a quiet thread otherwise). However, it'd be nice to see what Turamber has to say about it. Or the other christians. And I'd also like to see a justification for the continued existence of the organisation (not the religion itself - just the structure that supports child rape) from anyone...

 

[old.Tohtori]

You mistook my posts a bit, let me clarify;

I said "organised cri..err...part of it" in a light humorous way, it is by all definition, crime and as i said, should be policed and punished for.

Also, i said i can get behind removing the organisation from it, because that's not what religion is about anyway. Jesus would be the first to kick over some organised stalls in this shizzle.

Then there's the fact that it's not all priests who kiddiefiddle. Main point; not all.

Those doing it bad, but all not bad.

Removing POWER from churches is fine, that should only include the house of worship.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Also by asking the correlation, i simply wanted to know how big a percentage this kiddie fiddling is compared to overall kiddie fiddling.

You can't compare one countries numbers to an overall scale, it just doesn't work that way. It would be like comparing a manchester football club fight numbers and saying they are a national average.

 

[Wij]

I think Roman Catholic rapists would be a more accurate title.

 

[noblok]

Celibacy = encouraging rape of the vulnerable

As far as I'm aware there's no scientific evidence supporting this statement. In fact, according to Hans-Ludwig Kröber (a forensic psychiatrist and an atheist) noone becomes a pedophile due to a lack of sexual contacts. Pedophiles are far more likely to be found among those who have a had sexual contacts from a young age. According to his studies the main perpetrators in the church are also priests who do have sexual relations with adults, despite the celibacy.

However: it's obvious that any act of rape is wrong and it's especially wrong for someone in a position of (moral) authority, such as a priest. I'm not trying to minimise the problem as every time it happens is one time too often. I'm afraid that evil people can be found anywhere though, including in the catholic church.

Here's to me thinking that news of this latest atrocity won't shake the beliefs of a single christian or cause them to condemn the system they dearly love.

All that being said: the fault lies not only by the individuals who did wrong. The system also did very wrong in covering it all up, as did the rest of society at the time. The fact that the rest of society did this too may help understand why the church did it, but it may not be an excuse. The church should be strong enough to act against societal trends, especially if this is required to protect the most helpless members of society. So just to be clear: I condemn the church's policy of keeping quiet about the whole thing. I hope they use the current climate to admit their faults, to compensate the victims and to come clear (although it'll remain a stain forever and rightly so).

 

[Raven]

Celibacy does not lead to turning people into perverts. Enforced celibacy may well do though.

As for the church (Roman Catholic, not all sects of Christianity) Yes, it should be broken up. It has a history of being an evil, corrupt, secretive organisation. If it isn't running scams in 3rd world countries it is carrying out organised child abuse.

It is nothing more than a nasty, horrible cult.

But because it's religion, it can be swept under the carpet.

 

[Scouse]

The system also did very wrong in covering it all up, as did the rest of society at the time. The fact that the rest of society did this too may help understand why the church did it

Where's "the rest of society" in all of this?

Priests in the catholic church did this. The catholic church covered it up.

The "rest of society" is disgusted and appalled - and was initially surprised (though we're not any more).


Like any "organisation" the church is culpable. And since it's guilty of rape on such a massive scale it should be disbanded - like any other organisation would be.

 

[Turamber]

Because, as everyone knows, no atheist has ever done anything improper, wrong or incorrect.

 

[noblok]

Celibacy does not lead to turning people into perverts. Enforced celibacy may well do though.

It's not enforced, though. If celibacy isn't for you, you shouldn't become a catholic priest. That said: if it were to be decided that celibacy is optional for priests as well, I wouldn't be opposed to it. I don't care much either way.

 

[Raven]

Because, as everyone knows, no atheist has ever done anything improper, wrong or incorrect.

Well they do. But they get punished for it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Because, as everyone knows, no atheist has ever done anything improper, wrong or incorrect.

No one is saying that, ofcourse they have, might have done worse things even. That's why i'd like some numbers to compare to, for example; how many kids have been molested in said country since '45 in -general-.

 

[Scouse]

Because, as everyone knows, no atheist has ever done anything improper, wrong or incorrect.

I haven't noticed a system of atheists that makes it much more likely that they will sexually abuse children than the rest of the population. Have you?

I've certainly not noticed a system of atheists that covers up and enables other atheists to rape children - or any organisation that enables tens of thousands of children to be abused.


Your argument paints the church like a child who's done something wrong and going "he did it too", in his defence...

 

[noblok]

Where's "the rest of society" in all of this?

Because children have been raped in (non-catholic) schools, sports clubs, youth movements, families e.a. as well. This was also covered up at the time (and often still is) and still does not get quite the attention the abuse in the church gets. I agree that the church deserves to be condemned for it's position on child abuse in the past (I think they're doing better now), but so does society at large.

Just to be clear, I'll repeat: yes, the organisation is culpable, but it's not alone and blaming celibacy is too easy and quite simply incorrect.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think the individuals should be punished more though; it's what you do, not who you are.

Atheist, priest, hedgehog, black, white, orange, light tint of gray...your crime.

I also think the organisation should be taken down and return to what religion is about, but not because of this alone. THIS *waves finger at article etc*, is individuals.

 

[Mabs]

not only do i think all convicted rapists should be tortured to death, i would volunteer to do it

but then 2 members of my family have been raped, so my view might be a bit off

 

[Wij]

I think the individuals should be punished more though; it's what you do, not who you are.

Atheist, priest, hedgehog, black, white, orange, light tint of gray...your crime.

I also think the organisation should be taken down and return to what religion is about, but not because of this alone. THIS *waves finger at article etc*, is individuals.

It's not individuals though. The furore is about the fact that the catholic church actively covered up for the child-rapists for the sake of its own reputation.

 

[Krazeh]

I also think the organisation should be taken down and return to what religion is about, but not because of this alone. THIS *waves finger at article etc*, is individuals.

Yes it is individuals responsible for the actual act but it's the organisation that puts them in a position that allows them to do it and get away with it. Both the individual and the organisation hold responsibility for the sexual abuse of tens of thousands of children.

Because, as everyone knows, no atheist has ever done anything improper, wrong or incorrect.

Even if every atheist on the planet was pure evil it doesn't have any bearing on the wrong doing of the Catholic Church which is supposed to hold itself to a higher moral value, after all they are supposed to be doing "God's" work aren't they?

 

[throdgrain]

Kill the Pope ... you really need to get a grip Scouse.

 

[Scouse]

Because children have been raped in (non-catholic) schools, sports clubs, youth movements, families e.a. as well. This was also covered up at the time (and often still is) and still does not get quite the attention the abuse in the church gets. I agree that the church deserves to be condemned for it's position on child abuse in the past (I think they're doing better now), but so does society at large.

I don't disagree with the fact that paedophilia happens in society at large. Not for a second.

I'm making the assertion that this is different, for these reasons:

• It's happening within an organisation

• It's more widespread than in the general population

• The organisational structures enable and cover up this behaviour more effectively than it can be elsewhere

Any other form of organisation, other than religious, would be immediately disbanded and no-one would blink.

I argue that the catholic church does not deserve this protection. People are free to worship, and worship whatever god they like, when they like.

The organisation does not deserve continued existence.

 

[Scouse]

Kill the Pope ... you really need to get a grip Scouse.

I may have been mildly baiting with that comment.

Jail the Pope, then.


Try to argue against me on that one

 

[Wij]

Rape the pope!!!!

(may not be serious)

 

[Krazeh]

View: http://youtu.be/fHRDfut2Vx0?hd=1


I think this adequately sums up my views on the Pope.

 

[noblok]

• It's happening within an organisation

• It's more widespread than in the general population

• The organisational structures enable and cover up this behaviour more effectively than it can be elsewhere

• Sports clubs, schools, youth movements e.a. are organisations too. And I'm inclined to think that especially in the past it was official policy there too to keep quiet about these things.
  
• It's not. Unless you can quote me a study proving otherwise, from what I've read it's between 22 and 40 times less likely for a priest to become a child abuser.
  
• Probably true, especially in the past. I think they're moving forward, though. At least in Belgium they've been pretty transparent about the whole thing, albeit unbearably slow.

People are free to worship, and worship whatever god they like, when they like.

The organisation does not deserve continued existence.

The problem with this is that the two are intrinsically linked in roman catholic tradition, though.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yes it is individuals responsible for the actual act but it's the organisation that puts them in a position that allows them to do it and get away with it. Both the individual and the organisation hold responsibility for the sexual abuse of tens of thousands of children.

To you and Wij both; fair point and yes, organisation should be disbanded for this also. Punishing all members of it is not, so that's why i'd call for the punishment of the individuals.