Cheaters in DAoC

[Addlcove]

y0 d4 m4n flimgo!

damn I forgot what I wanted to say.

 

[old.Mirandalia]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
Actually we bashed his head in. He came back with friends and killed the lot of us after but..still...we always could say "Well, we killed you that one time."

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
SFX: Only thing i contradict on your reply(fine one by the way) is this:

"The line is drawn in such a place that something is not supposed to happen. Quests are meant to be completed or figured out."

Thinking of a gamedev perspective, they didn't(i believe) mean for people to go through quests step by step with a map in hand/window. If they wanted people to feel a bit confused about the tips to the quests, perhpas clearing those tips with helpguides is a form of cheat as well.

Ok, it's a thin line i agree...but it all comes down to personal morals. To some, using a cheat is a way of gameplay.

I personally found it extremely fun when in diablo we grouped to kill a cheater 7 to 1

I find my little clarification of the thin line to be great.
I mean, I am not saying that the reason why quest guides are alright is because quests are meant to be completed...
In such a manner you could say that radar programs are alright because you are supposed to find other players in RvR

Hard to explain, but my definition refers more to the fact that without guides you can complete quests with a sufficient amount of thought.
However, you will not find other players by figuring out where they will be. You will run across others with luck, or from common knowledge (mg's and such)...

So in other words quests you can solve without guides.
You can't figure out by thinking as to where the next FG of mids will be.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by SFXman
You can't figure out by thinking as to where the next FG of mids will be.

Good point all in all, but there's one thing in that.

You -can- figure out where the group of mids is in Art of War.

Basicly, you -know- their gonna come over that hill because it's the best approach.

You might -know- that Albs always camp the shore right infront of a BG Central keep.

I know that there's no comparison between a radar program and a quest-helpguide but still...it's about what YOU or I consider cheating.

 

[yarrick]

Would it be so bad if we used something like Punkbuster? When I play SOF II occasionally you will see someone kicked and they are named and shamed, i.e. 733tha><orkiddi3 was kicked for using an aimbot.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Mirandalia
Couldn't the game itself check for the existance of some other program that is this cheat? Then just report it to Mythic/Goa, leave this thing in for a few months, then mass ban anyone that had the program.

some cheats aren't detectable that easily unfortunately

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
Good point all in all, but there's one thing in that.

You -can- figure out where the group of mids is in Art of War.

Basicly, you -know- their gonna come over that hill because it's the best approach.

You might -know- that Albs always camp the shore right infront of a BG Central keep.

I know that there's no comparison between a radar program and a quest-helpguide but still...it's about what YOU or I consider cheating.

Yes, of course there is these general norms in the art of war, but still... these do not lead to a concrete conclusion, the mids might suddenly realise that one would expect them to come over that hill so they don't. Then they think that the albs will realise that they will in fact not come over the hill because they would be expected to go by the norm so in the end they come from the next valley
Quite complicated, but not with a radar program
As to the shore camping, this is one of those aspects of common knowledge I mentioned in my previous post.

I do understand your point that it depends on your own morals.

One more thing that I just remembered as to this subject of the thin line, is that the quest guides will only spoil your own fun if you choose to do so.
Radar programs affect others.
*bam* I think I hit the nail on the head

Originally posted by Yarrick
Would it be so bad if we used something like Punkbuster? When I play SOF II occasionally you will see someone kicked and they are named and shamed, i.e. 733tha><orkiddi3 was kicked for using an aimbot.

It would be great, except that in this case I think this might not work, as people have already discussed the radar program having a tendancy to not show in any way (unless someone posts their process list, hahaha ).
Then again I can't recall as to how punkbuster worked, if it scans the game directory in a local fashion (no information stored in your system sent to any outsider), then it could actually work.
Again, there is no stopping of someone coding a program that works outside the game folder.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Originally posted by SFXman
One more thing that I just remembered as to this subject of the thin line, is that the quest guides will only spoil your own fun if you choose to do so.
Radar programs affect others.
*bam* I think I hit the nail on the head

*gnaws the nail back up from the 2by4, but just a bit*

Radar programs spoil the fun of others only if the others know they've just been radared(umm...yeah).

You won't get pissed uberly and cry havoc over a normal kill either...well..some do.

But yes..i think we've gotten to the core of the issue and nobody still cares about our opinions

 

[SFXman]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
Radar programs spoil the fun of others only if the others know they've just been radared(umm...yeah).

So you also don't care that someone stole something off you until you realise the fact

But yes..i think we've gotten to the core of the issue and nobody still cares about our opinions

Heh, quite so

 

[old.Mirandalia]

But yes..i think we've gotten to the core of the issue and nobody still cares about our opinions

Well, the thing that both scared me and angered me at the same time was how easy it was to find the cheat in question, and the site had manuals, screenshots, forums, you name it.
I bet even a 4-year old could install the cheat and run it (no offense to 4-year olds, or just a bit, so sue me ).

So my first thought (after being quite inactive for over 6months, in RvR truly inactive), was that everyone already has this cheat and will be happily using it against me and any other honest player.

That's why I posted it, maybe nobody cares about me or your opinions, but I still feel like trying, call me a dreamer, but I dream of having no cheaters whatsoever (no, still not on drugs ).

 

[rookiescot]

Couldnt Mythic/Goa kill cheat programmes off at their source? I mean these download sites are offering a programme which impinges on the copyright of Mythics product.
Couldnt they get a court order to close these sites down?
Possibly leading to the prosecution of the site owner/host ?
I'm no legal expert but laws on copyright are quite tight I believe.
Failing that.. they could always hire a "cleaner" to make the "problem" go away

 

[Sichama]

Originally posted by old.Mirandalia
Couldn't the game itself check for the existance of some other program that is this cheat? Then just report it to Mythic/Goa, leave this thing in for a few months, then mass ban anyone that had the program.

It is illegal for anyone to use anything to scan your PC for whatever reason, more so to actually determine what programs you are running.

Weird how some people would freely accept and in fact promote illegal actions irl to punish other people from cheating in a game.

After you have invaded their privacy why stop at banning them, Mythic should hire some hitman along with their hackers and go over at their home and shoot them in the face.

 

[Lumikki]

Burn all cheaters and hackers, no questions asked.

xx

 

[the_fnord]

I'd say that BuffBots are cheating! (might be 'cus I don't have one! )

 

[old.Mirandalia]

Originally posted by Sichama
It is illegal for anyone to use anything to scan your PC for whatever reason, more so to actually determine what programs you are running.

Weird how some people would freely accept and in fact promote illegal actions irl to punish other people from cheating in a game.

After you have invaded their privacy why stop at banning them, Mythic should hire some hitman along with their hackers and go over at their home and shoot them in the face.

Yes, take my words on mass-banning turning it into mass-killing why don't you? If you have nothing to add to the thread, please don't post at all, I was simply wondering if it was possible, we got the answer that it was illegal already.

 

[Sard-Nair]

all cheaters should be locked up with a ape in the zoo...

 

[cleeve]

I read the topic and thought huh - another whine - here we go again. So I fired up google and decided to do a search so I could come in here and show how. . . .

well how easy it is tbh :/

My first search got me to a page that not only had radar, it had a great many other exploits on it, including a csr check to check if people queried what you were doing. It claimed to check for csr interest and then log your account off after a certain number of queries.

Now I don't know if it could do what it claimed, I am certainly not gonna risk my account 'trying' it. What disgusted me is that there is a company selling this - you have to register it and obtain a license key - which has to be illegal surely?

I mean we're going beyond a free download radar, where your account is banned, we're dealing with someone making real world money for hacking somebodies persistant game world code surely?

I dunno - I thought there might be a hardcore few mupp rvr cheaters and (relatively) harmless (imo) macroers. The app I found was far more advanced than that.

*edit* Yes I have logged the url with rightnow - not sure what (if anything) they can do about it, but I thought they should at least know whats going on there.

C

 

[Cyradix]

If they don't know already they must be blind imo

 

[Fafnir]

Well the scanning of you comp is indeed illegal if you have not given them the ok to do this. They just have to add it to the crap you accept when you install and start the game the first time, and everytime a new patch comes along.

 

[Sibanac]

Originally posted by rookiescot
Couldnt Mythic/Goa kill cheat programmes off at their source? I mean these download sites are offering a programme which impinges on the copyright of Mythics product.
Couldnt they get a court order to close these sites down?
Possibly leading to the prosecution of the site owner/host ?
I'm no legal expert but laws on copyright are quite tight I believe.
Failing that.. they could always hire a "cleaner" to make the "problem" go away

Not that simple, Radar works by sniffing and decripting the network trafic. Since the coders of the radar probly never saw the network code for doac.
It is a safe bet they revese engeneerd the network and encryption code. witch is legal.
The radars also dont need to modify any of the files used by daoc so no copyright violation there.

Since they are sniffers there is no way to check for them.
They are passive programs that just listen to the network trafic they dont send or alter any data and can be run of a diffrent computer anywhere on a network between client and server.
This fact also makes scanning one's system for know cheats useless.
(also i would never allow any program to scan my system, unless its the programs job)

 

[tripitaka]

Originally posted by old.Tohtori
Let's try this then....

Someone uses radar program to find stealthers and people.

"Cry havoc and slip loose the dogs of war!!!"

Mythic releases a new patch that includes a "sensing" system for casters as a realm ability.

"Woho! A new thingy to play with."

Anyone who wants to clarify my point, is more then welcome. I find it clear enough.

tsk tsk seely - its 'Cry Havoc ! and let slip the dogs of war' - i would've thought you'd have known that

 

[Sibanac]

Originally posted by Fafnir
Well the scanning of you comp is indeed illegal if you have not given them the ok to do this. They just have to add it to the crap you accept when you install and start the game the first time, and everytime a new patch comes along.

Thats a crap solution that doesnt work anyway.

first of all alot of people dont want a company scanning their HD. there ar personal/buisnes and gov't document on my pc that are confidential and mythic/ goa have no buisness scanning them
Second of all I'l bet ya anything that withing 2h of a system like that comming online the radar programs will be changed so they dont show up anymore.
Then there is the whole matter that radars dont have to run on the same computer as daoc

 

[Jonaldo]

I blame rvr guilds, they all cheat all the time.

 

[old.yaruar]

Originally posted by Sibanac
Not that simple, Radar works by sniffing and decripting the network trafic. Since the coders of the radar probly never saw the network code for doac.
It is a safe bet they revese engeneerd the network and encryption code. witch is legal.
The radars also dont need to modify any of the files used by daoc so no copyright violation there.

Tbh they probably don't encrypt the packets all that much to create less overheads. short of reengineering the game mechanics or boosting the encryption they would have problems..

Of course they probably could annoy the packet monkeys by changing the encryption every patch but tbh once they know how the thing works it's pretty easy to interpolate results. the alternative would be to muddy the data with spurious loc information, but again that would cause bandwith issues.....

 

[solothores]

Just to erase one myth about radar tools... you won't see the whole map uncovered and all movements of all players on it, so that you would be able to track that lonely one off the place afk'ing in a corner of the map.

In DAoC only data to an extend of 4000 units is sent to all clients. Clipping range on every client is about 3000 units. About everything beyond, no data is available which could be analyzed and used for any kind of 3rd party progs. Furthermore only data is sent about the zone you are at, so you can't look beyond other Zones even if your bulb of 4k range in Emain is overlapping Breifine for instance. Imagine for yourself, if Data was sent about all movements within all zones... the occuring lag from it would make DAoC unplayable, and you guys would have constantely the pleasure of being part of a relict raid.

So now you know the range and diameter in which radar tool users can detect non-stealthers, as no data is sent about stealthed players.

However the radar most players are using is "inc lag detection", if a full group enters the 4000 range bulb of a player, he will certainly expire a more and less noticeable lag especially on places, which otherwise are more or less soft moving. Most players know about this, especially if you play in gank groups and search for opponents, on the eversame places and routes over and over again, as soon as someone notices inc lag, enemy players are near them, that is the reason why you won't surprise much players at all with your presence. And most players might make an cautioned impression as soon as you inc them.

Why I know about this? Cause I read it on both Radar Tool developer boards, when I tried to find out how big the advantage of a radar user above a non radar user was, and if all those cases of ppl falling in our back are resulting just out of natural circumstances.

The truth is, "inc lag" is a pain in the arse and negating the surprise-factor out of most of the encounters. However, Mythic has no other choice, as keeping the two ranges as close as possible, because of cheaters and performance.

Biggest benefit for radar is in the hands of a gank group leader, which has a visual detection above the lag detection system, so they will increase efficiency to a large extent and claim initiative in their hands above groups which don't have the benefit of visual detection, the bad thing is a skilled user can use it fairly securely to keep the rp count each day at the same level. As long as he doesn't get greedy, he has not much to fear. The only clue for others could be that those groups are always inc'ing and get never inc'ed by others, however even than you don't have any evidence, and even his own gank group might just think of him as a bad ass, skilled and experienced player.

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by yarrick
Would it be so bad if we used something like Punkbuster? When I play SOF II occasionally you will see someone kicked and they are named and shamed, i.e. 733tha><orkiddi3 was kicked for using an aimbot.

Punkbuster is kinda funny ( and similar variants ).

I was playing on a server where buyscripts were 'ok' as a convenience, since the buytime was set quite high.

I got kick-banned because it found an alias named 'buyAim' which I was using to purchase SG552/Steyer with. Poor naming in a buyscript got me banned, not cheating.

Also been thrown out of a server for having 'too good timing' on switching weapons when clips ran out

yeah, me playing 24/7 at that time had nothing with it to do, it -had- to be some sort of cheat that I was fast.

:sleeping:

point of my post was - poorly written 'anti-cheat' programs can get non-cheaters accused for cheating as easily as you and I can say 'he is probably cheating', with no factual evidence whatsoever.


( if you haven't already figured it out - I'm about as anti-cheat as they come )

 

[ilaya]

Why dont we all sign up to let Mythic scan our pc's for those progs then? I got nothing to hide.

and 3rd party progs are a *little* bit different from quest links btw.. not like u auto-do them or summit, they give help, like a guild does. If anything, the flash view of who holds keeps atm could be considered a cheat if u going on that basis. Who runs that?...

No excuse for cheating. Play the game on it's merits or don't play at all.

 

[Addlcove]

Originally posted by tripitaka
tsk tsk seely - its 'Cry Havoc ! and let slip the dogs of war' - i would've thought you'd have known that

tsk tsk tripitaka, it´s "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war"

don´t go correcting people if you don´t get it right

 

[cjkaceBM]

Originally posted by Sichama
It is illegal for anyone to use anything to scan your PC for whatever reason, more so to actually determine what programs you are running.

Weird how some people would freely accept and in fact promote illegal actions irl to punish other people from cheating in a game.

After you have invaded their privacy why stop at banning them, Mythic should hire some hitman along with their hackers and go over at their home and shoot them in the face.

No it isn't.

It is illegal to do something without your express permission - otherwise virus scanners, trojan scanners and spyware software would be illegal. They aren't simply because you allow the software to do what it does.

This could work for DAoC and any other game tbh. You put a small program in that scans your memory/processes/tasks etc to detect the lastest sniffer/macroer and then kicks you out of the game.

By putting a disclaimer at the start and you having to accept these terms then it would be perfectly legal. Unfortunately people are so hung up on so-called 'privacy' that it won't ever happen.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

Blizzard tried that in one of their games. It wasn't a success, since as you al ready mentioned, people are paranoid about their 'privacy'.