Changes at Goa

[kivik]

they may only be controlling one char - BUT they are recieving the benefits of multiple characters - ergo - they are not solo - they may not fight in a group but soloers who have buff bots should not be called soloers...

What a genius, eh?

 

[Flimgoblin]

they may only be controlling one char - BUT they are recieving the benefits of multiple characters - ergo - they are not solo - they may not fight in a group but soloers who have buff bots should not be called soloers...

careful you might injure their e-peen!

 

[Sharkith]

they may only be controlling one char - BUT they are recieving the benefits of multiple characters - ergo - they are not solo - they may not fight in a group but soloers who have buff bots should not be called soloers...

thats a very good point and I bet you that in fact these guys if they were allowed to develop as a group would eventually be able to get rid of buff bots.

In fact if they would get rid of buff bots it might well enable more casual people to pop along and give it a go.

So nice point its just a pity that these guys are not allowed any room in game..

 

[Esselinithia]

They are allowed many places in the game if they can share with others.

And yes: Most PVE people don't use buffbots. And some characters (rejuv clerics) are at disadvantage. This is why I don't respect the soloer who attacks a PVEing cleric When he benefits from abilities of multiple character, has all the advantages it is hardly a fair fight.

Since he started a fight where he had every reasons to know it won't be a fair fight, I have no reason to think he wants fair fights. No reason to respect his fights and duels from this moment.

 

[Sharkith]

They are allowed many places in the game if they can share with others.

And yes: Most PVE people don't use buffbots. And some characters (rejuv clerics) are at disadvantage. This is why I don't respect the soloer who attacks a PVEing cleric When he benefits from abilities of multiple character, has all the advantages it is hardly a fair fight.

Since he started a fight where he had every reasons to know it won't be a fair fight, I have no reason to think he wants fair fights. No reason to respect his fights and duels from this moment.

I don't want to get into an essay exchange with you (if you knew me I can throw the odd corker together) but can you explain to me how I would know if your a 'PvE cleric'?

Some pointers would be useful.

The soloers are pretty obvious - they stand around or run about alone unfortunately they tend to do this around Bridges which is an unfortunate place to engage in that kind of behaviour.

 

[Reignfire]

Essen:

But you insulted, bullyed, claimed that your "so called experience" and insults makes you right and we should accept your argument and only your argument which you haven't presented yet, not even the basic definitions.

Because you feel yourself as so much superior in experience and everything that your deinition that doesn't exists, your names for groups to discuss things that haven't even thought about is superior based on your so called superior experience.

THis is where you are arogant and stupid.

And since you still haven't made your definition, I somehow feel that two days isn't enough for you to think about:
If this problem exists how should we call group X.

But you argue without thinking based on your imagined position. without providing any name any solution. But you are great and dumb, empty and pointless insults. And probably you are good for nothing else.

I still fail to see where i have bullied someone into playing my way? In fact i fail to see where i have even stated that one way of playing is correct or another is wrong.

And as with all my other request for proof of where i have stated that i have more experience than anyone or where i have insulted someone in this thread.

The only person doing the insulting here is you. First you called me a moron because i asked for proof of something you claim i have done then stupid and arrogant for something else that i have never done.

So once again in summary i request the following:

1: proof that I have abused some1 in game or on fh over adding/zerging
2: proof that I said I was better or more experienced than anyone in game or on fh
3: proof that i try to force/bully/make someone play my way in game or on fh.

I dont think that these requests are unreasonable as you claim that I have done them.

 

[Reignfire]

Essen:

I think you still dont understand that I dont care whatyour definition or my definition of a Soloer or 8v8 is as I have never in this thread said that any way of playing is right or wrong. My origional point was and remains the same which is:

What gives YOU the right to tell others how to play as well as stereotyping players.

But if you want we can play it your way using YOUR definitions of Soloer or 8v8 players. With that in mind I want to ask the following:

1: How many FGs has insulted you or other players. (Please back this up with screenshots or links any1 can make up random statements claiming they are true)

2: How many soloers have insulted you or other players

These are I believe your arguments over why these types of players are detrimental to the server and creates bad blood amongst players. If they happen as frequently as you claim there should be no problem for you to get this proof.

 

[Gear]

1: proof that I have abused some1 in game or on fh over adding/zerging

You were QQ-ing at me all the time when someone was adding on you

Esse, I can tell that you have no idea about what soloing or fg fights are really about, I don't blame you, but then again, please put a sock in it, you're getting quite tiresome.

 

[Reignfire]

You were QQ-ing at me all the time when someone was adding on you

I was QQing at you!!! You love that!!! To you its not Abuse!!!! hows you nowadays you crazy Greek?

 

[Esselinithia]

I don't want to get into an essay exchange with you (if you knew me I can throw the odd corker together) but can you explain to me how I would know if your a 'PvE cleric'?

1st: Doubt if most clerics would solo

2nd: This is why suggested some colors

 

[Sharkith]

1st: Doubt if most clerics would solo

2nd: This is why suggested some colors

....mad as a hatter.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Do something constructive then and bring it round to what you think would be on topic for this thread.

OK I will.

Sad as it is to see Requiel leave, it seems this hefty debate has lost the point, "Changes at GOA" seem to have brought an uneasy silence from our hosts, no 1.88 patch news, Friday news going further down the pearly white basin where toilet paper normally goes after being soiled, ignoring the pleas from the most vocal of you all to the state of Dyvet and its future.

I know the team there are now thin on the ground, but promises were made a long time ago to improve customer relations between the GMs and the players, sadly it seems this has reverted back to the "need to know and you dont" scenario we had a couple of years ago regarding such issues as the Prydwen DB crash. Once again here we are a year after we first asked the question and were given subtle hints about the plans for the falling population and still our cries seem to go unheard. While I do appreciate that no news is better than bad news maybe in this case, it seems that the team we look towards have gone for pizza and beer and forgot to leave a post-it note to let us know.

I know I have shuffled off to US, but I do stay in touch with my freinds on Excal and Pryd (I hate saying Dyvet), as well as keeping an eye on the E&E scene, and I do feel a sense of pity for those left behind trying to find their way of entertaining themselves enough to justify paying their £16 a month.

I do see where GOA are coming from regarding the dueling situation, but to some it has become the best way to find fun in the game, and so shouldnt really be punished for theit ways, unless ofc they start to grief other players who dont abide by their dueling rules, sorry, but thats just tough titty, killing oponents IMO is more the way the game is intended than for a single players fun, so its a double edged sword. However I did feel that a GM should have first spoken to the players, telling them what the problem was rather than just hand of god actions, this goes for the TT thing too.

I do hope the GMs rethink the way they talk to us, or at least offer olive branches like XP/RP bonus' like Mythic do when they f*ck up. As this isnt code changing I cant see why its so hard. Or put some event together to bring the fun back again, not some long winded drivel liek they did a few years back but something that shows they are there and do give a damn.

 

[Phantomby]

OK I will.

Sad as it is to see Requiel leave, it seems this hefty debate has lost the point, "Changes at GOA" seem to have brought an uneasy silence from our hosts, no 1.88 patch news, Friday news going further down the pearly white basin where toilet paper normally goes after being soiled, ignoring the pleas from the most vocal of you all to the state of Dyvet and its future.

I know the team there are now thin on the ground, but promises were made a long time ago to improve customer relations between the GMs and the players, sadly it seems this has reverted back to the "need to know and you dont" scenario we had a couple of years ago regarding such issues as the Prydwen DB crash. Once again here we are a year after we first asked the question and were given subtle hints about the plans for the falling population and still our cries seem to go unheard. While I do appreciate that no news is better than bad news maybe in this case, it seems that the team we look towards have gone for pizza and beer and forgot to leave a post-it note to let us know.

I know I have shuffled off to US, but I do stay in touch with my freinds on Excal and Pryd (I hate saying Dyvet), as well as keeping an eye on the E&E scene, and I do feel a sense of pity for those left behind trying to find their way of entertaining themselves enough to justify paying their £16 a month.

I do see where GOA are coming from regarding the dueling situation, but to some it has become the best way to find fun in the game, and so shouldnt really be punished for theit ways, unless ofc they start to grief other players who dont abide by their dueling rules, sorry, but thats just tough titty, killing oponents IMO is more the way the game is intended than for a single players fun, so its a double edged sword. However I did feel that a GM should have first spoken to the players, telling them what the problem was rather than just hand of god actions, this goes for the TT thing too.

I do hope the GMs rethink the way they talk to us, or at least offer olive branches like XP/RP bonus' like Mythic do when they f*ck up. As this isnt code changing I cant see why its so hard. Or put some event together to bring the fun back again, not some long winded drivel liek they did a few years back but something that shows they are there and do give a damn.

Wrote lots of stuff...deleted it.
Suffice to say...I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Takitothemacs]

nice to see an E&E that tells it like they see it rather than pandering to the fragile sensibilities of thsoe in GOA that have given up caring about the community.

 

[Cromcruaich]

they may only be controlling one char - BUT they are recieving the benefits of multiple characters - ergo - they are not solo - they may not fight in a group but soloers who have buff bots should not be called soloers...

If thats the definition you wish to use, then feel free to do so. Unfortunately, its not the generally recognised definition as I outlined above. So fill yer boots there m8.

 

[Cromcruaich]

OK I will.

Sad as it is to see Requiel leave, it seems this hefty debate has lost the point, "Changes at GOA" seem to have brought an uneasy silence from our hosts, no 1.88 patch news, Friday news going further down the pearly white basin where toilet paper normally goes after being soiled, ignoring the pleas from the most vocal of you all to the state of Dyvet and its future.

I know the team there are now thin on the ground, but promises were made a long time ago to improve customer relations between the GMs and the players, sadly it seems this has reverted back to the "need to know and you dont" scenario we had a couple of years ago regarding such issues as the Prydwen DB crash. Once again here we are a year after we first asked the question and were given subtle hints about the plans for the falling population and still our cries seem to go unheard. While I do appreciate that no news is better than bad news maybe in this case, it seems that the team we look towards have gone for pizza and beer and forgot to leave a post-it note to let us know.

I know I have shuffled off to US, but I do stay in touch with my freinds on Excal and Pryd (I hate saying Dyvet), as well as keeping an eye on the E&E scene, and I do feel a sense of pity for those left behind trying to find their way of entertaining themselves enough to justify paying their £16 a month.

I do see where GOA are coming from regarding the dueling situation, but to some it has become the best way to find fun in the game, and so shouldnt really be punished for theit ways, unless ofc they start to grief other players who dont abide by their dueling rules, sorry, but thats just tough titty, killing oponents IMO is more the way the game is intended than for a single players fun, so its a double edged sword. However I did feel that a GM should have first spoken to the players, telling them what the problem was rather than just hand of god actions, this goes for the TT thing too.

I do hope the GMs rethink the way they talk to us, or at least offer olive branches like XP/RP bonus' like Mythic do when they f*ck up. As this isnt code changing I cant see why its so hard. Or put some event together to bring the fun back again, not some long winded drivel liek they did a few years back but something that shows they are there and do give a damn.

v. nice post. . Well and truly back on track. I'll try and resist replying to Ess as it ends in tears and means my employer is getting less than value for money for my working day.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Oh, that reply seems at odds with your other one in t'other thread, was your FH account hijacked?!

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Oh, that reply seems at odds with your other one in t'other thread, was your FH account hijacked?!

Its friday, got my weekend head on


Seriously, I try to see everyones perspective, not just my own but that of an entire population, the PvEers, Soloers, L33tists and even from GOAs pov, sometimes I can justify one against another, other times I see where people have blinkered views and maybe I have too. My feelings about GOA have never changed, I see when as a player I feel they are wrong, and as someone releated to their company in whatever small capacity (in my case voluntary and unpaid), they can be right.

Ive always thought of myself as a medium player, Im not hardcore PvE or RvR, what I do in both I enjoy, but peoples reactions to how I find my fun sometimes puts me off the game, which shouldnt be the case.

 

[Raven]

If thats the definition you wish to use, then feel free to do so. Unfortunately, its not the generally recognised definition as I outlined above. So fill yer boots there m8.

well that would also mean all FG'ers are zergers because they use a BB Such a silly comment to say soloers arent solo if they are buffed, they are playing on a level playing field vs other solo people, if idiot full groupers and mini groups would have stopped zerging them then maybe we would seen the unbuffed soloing. at least with buffs you stand a chance vs the random trio or mini group.

Buffs really aren't an issue, so many people have a BB that anyone can get buffs

Back OT, nice post Woodoo, probably the first i have ever agreed with

 

[Tesla Monkor]

nice to see an E&E that tells it like they see it rather than pandering to the fragile sensibilities of thsoe in GOA that have given up caring about the community.

Well, the E&E boards contain many of the same questions you see here, but the question 'What is going to happen' is not answered any differently. The only news is that there is no news, and that the decision is out of the hands of the GMs.

 

[Lamp]

Best of luck. Its just like anyone doing anyother job. A better / new / alternative job / challenge materialises, and you carpe diem

 

[Ctuchik]

ignoring the pleas from the most vocal of you all to the state of Dyvet and its future.

well, when most of the posts made by those vocal ppl usually contains more abuse towards GOA then actual pleas, who can blame them?

nice post overall tho.

 

[Cromcruaich]

well, when most of the posts made by those vocal ppl usually contains more abuse towards GOA then actual pleas, who can blame them?

nice post overall tho.

You think that the GoA 'response' would be any different if people kept their mouths shut?

 

[old.Whoodoo]

You think that the GoA 'response' would be any different if people kept their mouths shut?

Probably not, however if the level of abuse they received for posting absolutely anything on here was reduced, you might find them more willing to talk to us. I remember Erivoss got involved in a debate on here that went way out of control, and in the end said stuff it, and hasnt posted on here since.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Probably not, however if the level of abuse they received for posting absolutely anything on here was reduced, you might find them more willing to talk to us. I remember Erivoss got involved in a debate on here that went way out of control, and in the end said stuff it, and hasnt posted on here since.

Couldnt they be given an area onto which they could make unofficial announcements and general communication, which is read only for everyone else?

Dunno if the new encumbents would find that useful - more flexibility than the news, and they dont have to engage in a lengthy discussion.

 

[Sharkith]

Probably not, however if the level of abuse they received for posting absolutely anything on here was reduced, you might find them more willing to talk to us. I remember Erivoss got involved in a debate on here that went way out of control, and in the end said stuff it, and hasnt posted on here since.

Yes but talk to us for what purpose?

I am unsure but it seems to be a very common conception in the industry that forums are a useless space, full of people who don't even play the game and are not interested in the game. I guess it all depends on what the industry wants from forums. I think a lot of these guys want people to sit and listen to them and agree with them. Many don't seem to realise that their game exists in a society that dropped paternalism as a way to organise discussion and debate around about the time of the reformation. No wonder they get frustrated when they have such antiquated expectations.

This of course is not to defend the ignorance they often become subject to.

It is remarkable when you check out a few spots around the web just how simplistic ideas there are about what is happening on forums like this. It certainly pays to be reasonable but several times people have stopped debating or pretended to debate when in fact they were just restating a position. Under those conditions you have to wonder if the industry has anything to contribute to community life on their servers? I have seen enough to see that in fact they can have very little to contribute at times and in fact can do more harm than good.

One example of this kind of mentality is the way GM's often cite - "the people on this forum are not representative of the whole server" and other nonsense like that. Usually they combine this claim with a second claim: that they are in a better position to know the views of the server and so their views are more right or more authentic.

OK then tell me how can you honestly know? By what criteria?

You cannot.

So when you say that we should encourage them to contribute I would agree with one condition. That they contribute and don't try to 'govern'. If they want to post to 'govern' a discussion then they should avoid posting in the first place because they will do more harm than good.

 

[Imgormiel]

Couldnt they be given an area onto which they could make unofficial announcements and general communication, which is read only for everyone else?

Dunno if the new encumbents would find that useful - more flexibility than the news, and they dont have to engage in a lengthy discussion.

New employee's usually give value for money in their time for work. That usually means doing the work and nothing else or face getting fired xD Old employees get away with murder because the odd brilliance shown once in a blue moon wipes away most punitive authoritarian crap an employer can come out with if you aint functional enough

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Couldnt they be given an area onto which they could make unofficial announcements and general communication, which is read only for everyone else?

Dunno if the new encumbents would find that useful - more flexibility than the news, and they dont have to engage in a lengthy discussion.

The problem here is forumittes in general are given an inch, and want to go the mile. If they said anything "unofficial", it could give false hope, or in the forumittes case, a promise that a timescale and plan are in place and will be implimented at exactly the time they said and the place they promised, without promising...or acutally saying....or doing...

Again, the double edged sword of the chicken and the egg pop up again, if they do say something that doesnt happen correctly they get flamed, if the dont do something they say - even unofficially - they get flamed. Sometimes its best to play the three wise monkey routine, keep ya trap shut and you wont get flamed as theres no direct ammo.

However, the ammo the player base has now can be nailed down to timing - ie taking wayyyy to long to make desicions or even keep the people remotely updated, the rats leaving the sinking ship conspiracy - now they are all bailing to WAR leaving poor Taryx to run the whole shebang, and of course the general poor quality of information on the portal (their friday not-so-news) that is about as entertaining as dentistry.

Looking back over the past 5 years, we players have critisised GOA for a lot of things, poor communication being the primary. I work for the NHS and its run on a similar model, tell people f*ck all and they will have f*ck all to complain about. Comparing GOA to Mythic was always hard, they had the tools and money to do what they liked, but having said that GOAs web site is more complicated to maintain and update that the Herald, which has more information in a much simpler format, one you can even search too!

In essence, keep ya gob shut and hope the debt collector doesnt hear you, or give false hope and get shot down for it, damned if ya do, damned if ya dont.

 

[ambera]

Hmm.

Amongst some sections of the playerbase, yes, damned if you do, damned if you don't. And Mythic, as well as GOA, talk about refusing to 'play the forum game', citing, as Shark said, some BS statistics about only 20% of the players being active on forums and the signal-noise ratio being so low that the companies can't sort out the useful feedback from the abuse and flames.

Now, that simply ain't so. Firstly, abuse and flames come from a) allowing people to have unrealistic expectations and b) a forum culture that encourages such behaviour. Secondly, the 'vocal minority' squawking on forums may only be 20% of the playerbase, but that doesn't mean their opinions are not relevant or representative. Many more people read forums than post on them, and imo those people are more likely to post if their views are not already represented, meaning there's a good chance that the views expressed on the forums are broadly supported by the community at large. Of course there will be those who want nothing to do with forums, but there's no evidence for the beleif that those people are the 'silent majority' and that they necessarily disagree with the 'vocal minority'.

But the trick to community management, I think, is in any case not to start from the assumption that your players are a bunch of idiots with nothing useful to say and who do not deserve your time, and with whom you can never, under any circumstances, engage in a productive dialogue. It takes political nous to know what to say and when to say it, but if you don't, you lose your opportunity to 'manage' the community. You lose the opportunity to learn from the community. You fail to engender trust, which ties in to what Sharks was saying about paternalism. People are never keen to trust those who have power over them, and GMs have a great deal of power over us with almost no accountability. Leave a void, mistrust grows, and people will seek to fill the void with rumours, gossip and conspiracy theories. They'll still flame the company, the company reps just won't see it. And while the GMs are covering their ears, closing their eyes and going "lalala", players are leaving.

Yes, the amount of complaints will go down if people don't think they're being heard. BUT I'm not convinced it makes people happier. Instead they take bigger and more drastic actions to get the attention of the company, which have a more divisive effect on the community, OR, feeling helpless, they just leave.

 

[Ctuchik]

You think that the GoA 'response' would be any different if people kept their mouths shut?

having reading problems? where did i say that?