BWRTCWL - You decide the future.

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bigbb

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If you only played in Season One, you've reason to not have any wish to be involved. The recent Seasoned Cup competitors are somewhat more positive, having had a far more successful tournament. I believe, more so than other GSP RTCW leagues.

No-one has made up their minds :) We've said time and time again, we've been given a choice, at the end of the day if the majority want a free league, it'll be a free league. End of story. Just because we're voicing both sides of the argument does not mean that's the way it's going. It's constructive discussion.

Originally posted by [DiGa] Doc Roe
like ophiuchus says theres no guarantee this wont happen again even if we pay u proved u cudnt give a flying fuck about "the community" then so why wud this change?

This hasn't happened again, as proved by the success and enjoyment of the Seasoned Cup. There were a few way back in Season One who were doing the league a disservice but that's not to tar the entire future of a league in that way. All the chaps running it and adminning it are almost completely different and have worked bloody hard over the past few months. There were fundamental issues in Season One, which have long since gone and move on.
 
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.cage

Guest
afaik, the game is very much dying at the moment anyhow. (Especially in the UK)

(hi bigbb! :))
 
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wildthang

Guest
Originally posted by bigfoot


No, it would mean that we could use the hardware elsewhere on communities & competitions where the services we provide are actually valued.

Easy tiger, nobody said that the free service you provide isn't valued. Most of the critisicm aimed at the last season was because it went a bit AWOL towards the end of the league and people got annoyed.. and quite rightly.

Originally posted by bigfoot
It's not worth the hassle involved from our point of view, or the league admins point of view, to introduce 1 off payment schemes and overall it adds no value to the Subscription package, something which leagues are seen as being a long term part of.

Where exactly is the hassle in setting up some kind of payment facility for clan leaders to pay their money through? (visa, switch etc.).

The point about clans not being sure they are together for 6 months is an interesting one but one of the benefits of having a Subscription account is that it will entitle you to play in any league you want, so if you do move on to UT2K3 you would have entry to that BW League already sorted from your own individual point of view.

Exactly, from an idividual point of view you are sorted to play in the league, but what about the other people in your clan? Will our adverts for new recruits have to be along the lines of :
  • Over 18 (flexible)
  • Broadband Connection (128 or Cable)
  • Good team player (training available)
  • BW Subscription (Must have)
In short you are pricing the casual clan player out of the running. Raising £84 per clan is too much to ask. Finding decent and dedicated players is already a hard enough job without raising the bar even higher. I realise you guys have to make a living out of this, but this isn't the way to do it.

The popular opinion so far is to charge the clan an entry fee per season. That way there are no problems with the long term commitments of a yearly subscription and people can chop and change clans as they wish without any agro.

I'm sorry to moan at you guys, and I *DO* really appreciate the hard work that you put in, but I feel strongly about "pay per play" and feel this is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
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deros

Guest
well here's my "IMO" tho it's not worth much.

Last seasons BW was great. Considering that it's ran by volunteers for free you got a hell of a lot.

From that we had the Cup. This was improved even more so than Season 1 with the head admins learning from their experiences and improving the overall smoothness and running of the event.

I played in quite a few of the competitions and leagues that have ran over the past 6 months and looking at them all BW was the best. It drew the best clans, was the best organised and at the end of the day the most FUN.

aside from tho tho admittedly towards the end of the League the updates on the websites got less and less and Division 1 got a lot more the lower divisions with better coverage, admins always being available and website updates. What peeps are not appreciateing here tho is that the guys who ran it did it for FREE and in their own time.

With that considered they did a fantastic Job.

If i pay £12 tho does this gurantee that i will get the same level of service ? For £12 from each of my clans members i would expect the above plus a *hell* of a lot more, with websites being uptodate no later than a day later and fixtures posted well in advance of the games plus more

Are we going to get that tho if we pay ? what gurantee can BW give us that if we do pay we *will* get what we're after. Which is at the end of the day a league with dedicated players that is fun and enjoyable, with regular updates fixtures results and tables. Prizes and wolf tv.

Are the people who run this going to get paid ? if there not ( which is what i gather ) there is no reason for the running of the lewague to be any different than last season ( which was free so why pay ... ). No one can put the amount of effort required into running a league for free and i wouldn't expect them too.

What i'm trying to say is how can i be sure i'll get what i pay for ? . BL/Chip/BB all do a fantastic job and give us a hell of a lot and i want to take anything away from them ( at the end of the day they don't have to run the league at all do they ? ).
 
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Daemord

Guest
Let me just appologise in advance if i cover anything already said as i have only skim read most the post's bar the first one
Anyway here is my opinion

Personally i support the principle of a subs league, BUT some of the problems will still stand, ie with updating the boards, as its still done by volentears without much time on there hands etc etc, as i doubt BW will pay the admins. That said i do belive service should and probably will be better server side ie less lag, more up 2 date etc etc

The few problems arise that the wolf community is certainly thinning and alot of peeps out there are cheep scates also there are still free leagues out there, however good or bad they may be so the simple argument there is why pay for something i can get free

To this option what i personally would suggest is not a one off payment but rather a clan BW subscription possibly done by a clan leader, Clan subscription to include things like league entry and perhaps more webspace than the bog standard user and maybee other features maybee even a few clan bookable servers or the ability to use the league servers outside of league hours. These are just a few suggestions im sure the boffins could come up with more to justify this extra fee that would cover the entire clan. This way the devoted clan leader can pay the fee and the cheep skate members can play for free in the league


I appologise if my gramma/spelling is way off as it normally is i hope it hasnt mucked up the message though
 
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bigbb

Guest
"Last Season" really was a lifetime ago, in terms of changes in structure, people running it, admins and time. Seasoned Cup has proved the quality of the league. We're not discussing that, we're looking at the possibilities surrounding the league's future. I.e. Whether we want to take advantage of the new offer from BW.

Clan subscription's can't be done, we've been told that. There's already BarryBank so I wouldn't have thought it's necessarily technically not possible. But, it's the fact that the many and increasing number of subscribers to BW don't want their subs made a nonse of. They've paid for a complete gaming package, and by-golly they'll get one, through the new leagues.

(Ewo Cage!)
 
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wildthang

Guest
Originally posted by deros

What i'm trying to say is how can i be sure i'll get what i pay for ? . BL/Chip/BB all do a fantastic job and give us a hell of a lot and i want to take anything away from them ( at the end of the day they don't have to run the league at all do they ? ).

Here here!

Let's give Chip, Blacklotus and BigBB a shitload of cash for their time in running and managing the league. Money far better spent than on the BW Subscription :clap:
 
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old.[TPK]ophiuchus

Guest
please dont get me wrong. i loved the last season but after how things ended, how am i to see things now?

i REALLY DO want to thank all the guys who supported and ran the league. without a doubt anyone useing there spare time for the sake of others is something i respect and something that i would be involved in too, given the time.

like deros said how are we to know that the new seaon is to be all sparkles and glitter? i dont mind paying for the service. other members of my clan already have theres sorted. but i need a bit more convincing on whether a premium service from you guys is worth it.
 
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bigbb

Guest
Again. Did you see last Season/Cup? Tables/Maps/Results were all being updated around 20-30minutes after the match. Everything and its wife has changed since Season One, mostly people and structure. It's not even an Objective league anymore.
 
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old.[TPK]ophiuchus

Guest
who said i didnt want an obj league ;)

guess we all have to deside a bit more then what has been asked
 
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bigbb

Guest
I wasn't asking if you wanted an Obj league, that decision was made long ago. I was merely emphasising the difference from Season One. NM.
 
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old.[TPK]ophiuchus

Guest
yeah thats why i got the wink at the end. and i voted in to tread too!

i was trying to lighten the mood as this tread seems to have a few peeps goats! even my alittle. but please, alot of peeps didnt play in the cup and only saw the league season 1 though. not a a great memory to be left with even if it was fun!
 
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bigbb

Guest
Indeed. It does also seem as if the only vocal side is the Option 1's, because there's a near 60/40 split atm.
 
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[DiGa] Doc Roe

Guest
Originally posted by wildthang


Here here!

Let's give Chip, Blacklotus and BigBB a shitload of cash for their time in running and managing the league. Money far better spent than on the BW Subscription :clap:


I second that motion !

well then at least we cud use mercs that can see the servers in ase or any other popular server browser :p
 
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v0rt3x-

Guest
so what can we understand ?

We are from france and take pleasure to play barrysworld league even if we ping more than UK players.

paying for that, i don't think it is a good idea, the quality for us will stay bad as usual, so why paying ?

another thing, are you able to receive legacy euros payment from other country ?

barryscup have used my wolftv server for last cup and i did it for free because i think playing is a hobby not a job, but it is only my opinion, if you want i can give you a bild for bandwith usage during final match with 150 players connected on it will pay all futur participation of my team for 3 years.

So we will know soon if barrysworld choose to be open to europe or close to U.K player only :/

good luck
 
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Daemord

Guest
Just to raise another point what about players under 18 how exactly do they pay for the BW subscription (or it could be 16 im not sure) anyhow point still stands as they need a visa/delta card or a credit card so basicly you wouldnt only be asking people to pay 2 play but also banning people under a certain age.

Once again i say i agree in principle with what you are trying to do but in practice it would all fall down due to clans not having enough signed up members

Ultimately unless you do a pay to enter or a clan subscription where as you could have some people in a clan saying yes all you need is a few saying no and you cant enter because they dont have nor will ever get BW subscriptions and on this i couldnt say i 100% blame them as you get nothing that you couldnt get elsewhere for free (it may be slower laggyer etc etc but still free)
 
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Slim|

Guest
My vote is with free or clan entry payment. Season 1 was a shambles. Make it worth paying for and people will pay. You are asking a lot. I can't remember anyone saying at the beginning of season 1, hey this league is going to have major problems, the league tables will hardly ever be updated etc but what do you expect its free! No everyone said it would be great just like you are doing now.
 
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BlackLotus

Guest
We all agree that the end of the Season 1 was a mess.
But that is long gone.

The list of admins (head admins, match admins, web admins etc) has been built with some sense before the seasoned cup and we had the test tube Cup that came out as something great.

We all had fun, the matches went fine, any problem that showed up was promptly solved. Admins handled the games just fine and the clans involved did just great (behavior way).

We had a wolftv server (provided by v0rt3x from GROS) wich was always full... it was a great cup.

This will happen with the next league, the group of admins is the same and the will to do even better is here. I'm slightly afraid if we will have the means necessary to do it with option 1.

This is a good discussion, with valid arguments from each side.

Keep on talking.
 
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bigbb

Guest
Originally posted by Daemord
Just to raise another point what about players under 18 how exactly do they pay for the BW subscription (or it could be 16 im not sure) anyhow point still stands as they need a visa/delta card or a credit card so basicly you wouldnt only be asking people to pay 2 play but also banning people under a certain age.

You can get a Solo/Switch card from the age of 16, RTCW is a 15 certified game. If under 16, just ask your parents and pay them, or take it off your pocket money.
 
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syk.chak

Guest
Originally posted by Daemord
Just to raise another point what about players under 18 how exactly do they pay for the BW subscription (or it could be 16 im not sure) anyhow point still stands as they need a visa/delta card or a credit card so basicly you wouldnt only be asking people to pay 2 play but also banning people under a certain age.

That would cut out a very small proportion of people, considering rtcw is rated 15 (as bigbb said). As for paying, I wouldn't have a problem as long as the league was reasonably populated. It could be a bit annoying paying the fee to find a league of 5/6 clans :D. Anyhow, that's one more vote for the pay-to-play league.
 
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wildthang

Guest
Hmm.. I think some people are getting a little sidetracked with slagging the first season of BWRTCWL off rather than focusing on the issue of "pay for play".

We've been in since the start and yes, things got a little rocky for a while. But since the change in management things have been far better organised and they have even taken comments onboard from those in the community.

I would assume BW would make nessecary arrangements to ensure that the running of the leagues would be organised if they are going to charge people for the service, otherwise all hell would break lose. (good luck to the admins if this option eventually goes ahead)

The issue that we're all here to talk about is the implications of charging a clan £84 to compete. As I've rambled previously, it's too much for the average clan/player to shell out for just to compete in a league.

In short you are pricing the casual clan player out of the running. Raising £84 per clan is too much to ask. Finding decent and dedicated players is already a hard enough job without raising the bar even higher. I realise you guys have to make a living out of this, but this isn't the way to do it.

You're going to end up with a sparsely populated league which is either full of Uber clans or amature contenders, leaving the rest of us to search for our entertainment elsewhere.
 
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{=SF=}Trooper

Guest
I can understand why it would be better with a pay to play league has we have played jolt league to find it goes tits up 4 games into season due to admins and then restarts and before it starts it falls down again and if it means paying to keep a league up and running smoothly i am for it.

This will be our first season playing in a BW league and from reading other posts about season 1 and admins i can't comment.
I know admins give up their free time to admin the league and feel that if sub is necessary to give them a incentive for giving up their free time to admin and ensure smooth running of the league then great.
 
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Daemord

Guest
1 question i basicly have is 1 i belive has been raised

As has already been said Season1 was a titsup and the cup has shown that it can be run brilliantly and hats off 2 all admins involved during the cup, BUT what this also has proved is the league can be run excelently WITHOUT paying, so the question has to be apart from a wolfTV server (which we had also for free during the cup) what do we actually get for our money.
Things like will the admins be payed to encourage them to more actively answer questions and help people
Will they in turn be punished if they do not update the website on time and rapidly
In effect will there time no longer be "free time" but "payed" by us time
If it is not then paying will make no difference to if the league was run for free so the ultimate question has to simply be why pay???
 
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[DiGa] Doc Roe

Guest
Originally posted by wildthang


The issue that we're all here to talk about is the implications of charging a clan £84 to compete. As I've rambled previously, it's too much for the average clan/player to shell out for just to compete in a league.

In short you are pricing the casual clan player out of the running. Raising £84 per clan is too much to ask. Finding decent and dedicated players is already a hard enough job without raising the bar even higher. I realise you guys have to make a living out of this, but this isn't the way to do it.

£84 is the bare minimum and we never have the same 6 players together for matches so my question is: If u only have 6 subscribed names and decide to use these as alias' more than these 6 will have password access wont bw frown upon this?

is there anything thats going stop u from using mercs like in the uktfcl league, where they have wonids logged. I remember taking part in a match, which we go soundly beated in but it was proven they used more than 2 mercs so the result got overturned
 
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[DiGa] Doc Roe

Guest
Originally posted by Daemord
1 question i basicly have is 1 i belive has been raised

As has already been said Season1 was a titsup and the cup has shown that it can be run brilliantly and hats off 2 all admins involved during the cup, BUT what this also has proved is the league can be run excelently WITHOUT paying, so the question has to be apart from a wolfTV server (which we had also for free during the cup) what do we actually get for our money.
Things like will the admins be payed to encourage them to more actively answer questions and help people
Will they in turn be punished if they do not update the website on time and rapidly
In effect will there time no longer be "free time" but "payed" by us time
If it is not then paying will make no difference to if the league was run for free so the ultimate question has to simply be why pay???


I dont think the admins will be getting any money anyway the subscription will be lining the coffers of the game empire
 
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bigbb

Guest
Originally posted by [DiGa] Doc Roe
I dont think the admins will be getting any money anyway the subscription will be lining the coffers of the game empire

Indeed, the money won't go to admins, we're already given free subscriptions and admins do it because they enjoy it. Paying them would completely change the concept. This money, on your second point, will not go to the "game empire". If you look at the costs of running a league, we're probably talking thousands with bandwidth for servers, web site and lost revenue over the life of the league. This money would only cushion the balance sheet, but further provide prize pools, increased resources and capacity for us, it doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
 
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bigbb

Guest
Originally posted by [DiGa] Doc Roe


£84 is the bare minimum and we never have the same 6 players together for matches so my question is: If u only have 6 subscribed names and decide to use these as alias' more than these 6 will have password access wont bw frown upon this?

is there anything thats going stop u from using mercs like in the uktfcl league, where they have wonids logged. I remember taking part in a match, which we go soundly beated in but it was proven they used more than 2 mercs so the result got overturned

It's been said there's nothing to stop a clan buying 6 subscriptions, say call the accounts AGB1, AGB2 etc. Doing it through BarryBank (It was created to share costs between clans) it's £72 with Reward Card, £84 without. Say you've got 12players in your clan, that's £7 per player, per year. 10 Players, £8.40 pppy. The accounts would be accessed through webby or BarryLogon when you need them and each account would obviously have full access to all BW services. We've been told this is accepitble.
 
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old.[TPK]ophiuchus

Guest
ok so let me get this straight, the only thing the money goes to is BW and not the admins?

i'm gonna raise season 1 now! the admins did it for the love and look at what happened then. i offered my help so did many others if i remember correctly. but if BW is not going to pay for the admins (who are the real people running the league and have the hard job of dealing with people like me:p) then what kind of service are we going to get. whats the differnece?

yeah i know that servers cost a ton of money, plus all the other bells and whistle. but admins are doing all the hard work. working a PRs of behalf of BW. if bw goes sub i'll pay but i would want money to goto admins
 
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bigbb

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Yes, we've again established long ago S1 was a shambles. The recent cup, as repeatedly mentioned in response to that has been a success with a complete overhaul of management and running in the league. Admins of leagues have always done it because they enjoy it, if we were paid it would change the concept into a professional focus. That could compeltely remove itself from the essence of league gaming, fun.

Can I also stress, this discussion is in regard to the prospect of moving to subs life for the league. If we wern't happy with the deal we were getting, we wouldn't do it, simple.
 
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