BWRTCWL - You decide the future.

[bigbb]

Please read before voting.

Righty, shall we get down to business? This league, as with all other BarrysWorld leagues has recently been given two seemingly simple options; To pay, or not to pay. Well, that's simple, isn't it? We're not so sure now, hence the decision is in your mittens. The nitty gritty is below, take your ganders:

Option 1 - The Free League
Over in Option 1, Bruce. We've got all the basics a league could need; servers and admins. Relatively unchanged from what we currently enjoy, but server updates/patches may be delayed and it's highly unlikely the league will receive further resources, i.e. WolfTV server. Previously donated by a player, it's no longer with us. Understandably, subs leagues will be given priority and preference.

Option 2 - The Subs League
Here in Option 2, Dez. The league takes quite tempting turn. On offer (*Spotlight*) is a dazzling new WolfTV server, sporting further capacity and leather seats*. A new prize pool will also burst into our monitors with a wide range of prizes, across the divisional and clan board. The league will also be dealt a hand of improved league tools for our administration and we'll be on the bench for further improved resources and servers. Now, apart from this we will undoubtedly become a closer community league, all under one exclusive roof. But, on this serious side, this does all come at a price. Lets not be under illusion, you can get the basics (Option 1) free and indeed elsewhere, but we ought to look at what we could do with this option.

The cash then; all players will need a subscription to play in Option 2. That's £12 per year for GAME reward card holders, not got one? Click here and buy one for £2, that's £14 per year in total (Good at maths, me). It's worth mentioning at this point that there's technically nothing stopping you from buying 5 subscriptions and just alternating players using them for league matches.

Becoming a subscriber btw, is not just to the league. Your subscription gains you access to all of BarrysWorld services; that's bookable servers, web hosting with MySQL/PHP, publics, all other leagues; the hot cotton lot.

bigbb's final word
We've got two casting options here and we're quite happy to go either way, but please do consider what's on offer and what we could do for relative financial peanuts.

Have a ponder and feedback your thoughts below.


(*Leather seats are technically not included, unless present in user's home)

 

[d_g]

erm, my post asking about this got deleted :/

free league. subs league = no league, look at the public servers, never seen a single person on them (other than me checking). I'd like option 2, but consider it unlikely to actually happen, and i refuse the idea of asking clan members to pay more, on top of the clansever. At least we get an option though

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by d_g
erm, my post asking about this got deleted :/

Because it was answered here.

 

[BlackLotus]

Option 1: most clans prefere not playing to play and i understand that perfectly. But this options gives us admins less chance of having a really popular league.


Option 2: this is the best one in my opinion. I'm not saying this because i belong to the BW but because it's better to have more servers, WOLFtv and fast support from BW then being the second ones. The price isn't that expensive and the idea of getting 6 subscriptions and alternating them between members can work just fine.
On a side note, the fact that we got a "paying" to play league would mean that all the clans that pay have some responsability, and will always show up for matches. Plus the public servers could be having some movement and with the recent display of quality from some servers (jolt) this would be really good.

With this option we could form a really tight wolf community, but yeah, we have to pay for it.

It's up to you, the clans registered on the league to make your decision.

 

[olavski]

Free league, DG has some good arguements.

 

[BlackLotus]

DG arguments are good if there wasn't this Poll.

If we get tons of votes to the option 2, we can make this cause we know how many will sign up.

This poll is for it.

 

[cleeve]

hmm rapidly becoming an evil only feedback thread here.

I guess 1 lads. Option 1 that is.

I love the idea of option2 - I think it is feasible but not now. Right now not enough people have subbed to bw to make subscriber only leagues a goer imo. I think if BW went sub leagues only - (it wouldnt cause a prob for us tbh) - it would and will hand the initiative to the Jolt League *shudder* or A.N.Other league.

The problem with this issue is that not too many clan members can afford broadband, clan server subs and BW subs on top. I'm very lucky - my better half doesnt mind me throwing money at online gaming, but I know from speaking to clan mates and friends in the scene that the same is not true of everyone.

I also think that 'kicking' no show and abusive lame ass clans from a league that they pay for might prove problematic.

Cheers

M.

 

[onkelkarkov]

hmm, tough decision

Option 1 is me favorite. Imo, the only thing I would get out of option 2 is two things.
1.wolf TV
2. good pub.servers.
I have no need to play on bw's pub servers, since there are just as good servers around for free. (yet) It would cost me a ridicolous little amount of money, but I don't support servers going pay to play. Before long I'll have to pay money to bw, jolt, by, rtcw.no, etc.etc.etc. That on top of what I have to pay for me connection plus perhaps a clanserver is too much to be beneficial to me. That said, I will miss wolfTV for a bw league. There were some awsome games in bw-summercup that I'm sure there'll be more of. But I'll have to live with the demo's.

bigbb wrote:

....The league will also be dealt a hand of improved league tools for our administration....

does this mean easy utilities to set up league-stats etc?
If so I sure there are a few peeps around in the community who could setup something close to just as easy (not me, unfortunately :/ )

To me it looks like they somehow wanna "force" us to subscribe, so they don't have 4 pub. servers around doing shite for anyone. To make us do that, they put out "candy" such as wolf TV and prices. both of those I can live without. As written before demo's is as good as wolftv, prices: I play wolfenstein for fun, not prices (not that I'll ever get closed to em anyway )

so my vote goes to option 1

 

[wildthang]

I might consider paying say between £5-£10 entry fee for the entire clan per league season.. but I don't warrent £14 per player for the year as feasible given we all already pay for clanservers, broadband rental etc. Besides, how many clans know that they are going to remain together for the course of a whole year?

There's far too much stuff in the BW subscription that I wouldn't need or use. Keep it simple, just charge for the overheads of actually running the league and forget all the other stuff.

 

[eLL Tee]

What can i say.......

Give ppl an option of free or pay, most ppl will pick free.

If you can give us more info on prizes, it might make it more worth while for some players/clans.

As everyone wants to be a pr0 gamer, and that has its cost

Personally, I voted option 2, cos ive already paid my £1 a month, and it did leave me 25p short a week thats about 4p a day.....

 

[shoxx]

ok option 2 wont happen, people are fed up of paying for stuff, yes its the prefered option, but tbh if money was no option we'd all have £3000 putas.

People wont pay to pla, this has been demonstrated by the BW servers.

To put it bluntly:

Option1 = league,
Option2 = another nail in the rtcw coffin.

 

[haig]

How about offer free BW membership (for a limited time, perhaps a couple of months) to all participants of BWRTCWL?

It would certainly breath life into the RTCW BW 'public' servers and encourage more people to subscribe.

BW RTCW servers are the best around imo. So sad to see them empty.

 

[bigbb]

Well, we can't shore up specifics on prizes (We've no specific details ourselves) other than to say they would be across the board, as said. I.e. Not just the divisional winners, but particular achievements or disastrous losses.

We can quite easily continue as a free league, and that was undoubtedly going to be the initial reaction. But, with the likely stance of all future/new BW leagues being Subscriber only, we thought it might have been a good move, RTCW as pioneers. Newer games are starting to draw people into the same place on the BW publics and its starting to gather pace and create communities. The older games have struggled with this because people are going there, seeing no-one and leaving. Whereas with newer games (BF1942 etc.) subscribers are all going to the same place at the same time. If you ask me, a move to subs only would strengthen the RTCW community; with its own publics, bookables and league all in one place. Everyone in the league would be in one family home. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[.cage]

the majority of internet users are cheap morons who dl 128kbps mp3's for their aiwa speakers and consider it "CD KWALITY =)))" so I somewhat doubt a subs only league is ever gonna happen.

 

[[DiGa] Doc Roe]

Iv subscribed to barrys for the webspace, as stated above the public servers are always empty. theres nothing to tempt players to pay for subs.

I cant get all my clan to help pay for the server, Iv got no hope in making em pay to play in this league. Some are schoolies and just dont have the money to throw around. I know its not much but imagine going to ur mum and asking her for money so u can play in a league.

Itd be good if only the money coming in from Cls would cover it and would consider a one off payment to enter my clan in the league

does any1 know the figure of how many barrys subscribers there actually are?

 

[cleeve]

It seems a shame that the league cannot attract sponsorship. You would think that the likes of EA/ Activision would sponsor a server for the league to help out bw, wouldn't you?

It would be cool if software companies were to sponsor a server each for the league. That Server could then be named after them. I am sure its been tried and ignored. It just is a shame that games companies write and market games on the strength of their multiplayer options and then do so little to provide mp facilities.

Cheers

M.

 

[bigfoot]

Some good comments here and i'll try to put forward the argument against some of them.

With regards to the Public Servers i would not use them a yardstick as to whether or not people will pay - we probably have more RTCW players who subscribed than you might think but until there is a criticial mass there then people will just not play on the servers because there is nobody else playing there. If the league did go to Subscriber Only i could see this changing as there would be a significant increase in the number of Subscribers with a specific RTCW focus and this would, in my opinion, inevitably lead on to more people playing on the servers.

With regards to alternative methods of charging to enter the league this just is not practical, trial memberships / clan memberships wouldn't work from an administrative point of view, it would also water down the value of the Subscription to those who have already paid. The bottom line is that it also just doesn't fit in with the logical progression of our services - Leagues are the only significant area of BarrysWorld's services which remain free so it makes sense to eventually move them under the Subscription umbrella and make it a more rounded product.

Indeed, a lot of the feedback i have seen on the initial Subscription launch was that it wasn't something people really needed / wanted because it didn't offer enough, leagues being one of the key things that wasn't included. Now that is changing we feel that was already a good deal, when compared with other such products, is now an even better one.

Before long I'll have to pay money to bw, jolt, by, rtcw.no

It depends what and where you want to play really - Jolt have done Pay to Enter competitions for a long time now for other games, BY's competitions a while back were effectively a form of Pay to Enter and it would not surprise me if this was to happen again sometime soon in their case.

Someone said that moving to a Subscriber Only league would be a nail in the RTCW coffin, i would disagree as from what i've seen and been told of Online RTCW competitions in the UK it would be fair to say that, apart from the recent BW Seasoned Cup, most of the tourneys have been a bit of a mess. Therefore it could be argued that something like a Subscriber Only RTCW League with hefty resources and decent prizes could be just the thing to ensure that the community continues to have a decent, reliable & worth winning competition.

I would also forewarn you that the RTCW league uses my most powerful league server on 2 of the most popular nights, if there was a league which ran on the same nights which went to Subscriber Only it would be impossible to justify running that competition on inferior hardware if the RTCW League was running for free on its current servers - a point i am sure that most of you will agree with, even if you have hatred in your heart with regards to the thought of paying to play.

 

[ExP.Neo]

I would say option 2 for me as i have already paid the subscription, although, so far i've not played 1 game of wolf on a BW pub server , i think wolf is the best on-line team based game so far and we should do what we can to make it stay that way.

Maybe the registerd people should all get together for some games and hope more people will join in...

 

[wildthang]

Originally posted by bigfoot

It depends what and where you want to play really - Jolt have done Pay to Enter competitions for a long time now for other games, BY's competitions a while back were effectively a form of Pay to Enter and it would not surprise me if this was to happen again sometime soon in their case.

Pay to enter is fine. As I said before I'm more than happy to pay a tenner (or more if you can justify it) to enter our clan into a season of wolf games if it helps fund the running of the league and it's hardware. As it is there is nothing in the BW Subscription package that I actually want apart from the entry to the league. I get my web/cgi/php hosting from another providor who I'm more than happy with and we've got our own server for practices and matches. Why not just charge for the entrance to the league? If it doesn't fit in with your current business model and it's been unpopular with the masses so far perhaps it's time to change it?

Someone said that moving to a Subscriber Only league would be a nail in the RTCW coffin, i would disagree as from what i've seen and been told of Online RTCW competitions in the UK it would be fair to say that, apart from the recent BW Seasoned Cup, most of the tourneys have been a bit of a mess. Therefore it could be argued that something like a Subscriber Only RTCW League with hefty resources and decent prizes could be just the thing to ensure that the community continues to have a decent, reliable & worth winning competition.

The Wolf community is definately thinning out. The ones left playing it now are pure Wolf devotees. How many of those we'll lose to the rather saucey exterior of UT2003 remains to be seen.

Undoubtably by charging for entry into leagues it will accelerate this process further. I realise that some of the "pro" wolf clans such as 4K, SyndicateX etc. may welcome this change for a more organised approach to the scene, but for the rest of us who have been struggling away in Div2 and lower may be left high and dry. Most of the clans which fill these divisions play the game for it's fun value rather than viewing it as a serious past-time. Which is not to say that we're unrealiable or undedicated, just not as organised or committed as the aforementioned god like clans.

It's unlikely any of the "amatures" will want to shell out £84 to enter a league which they think they'll have no chance of winning. As someone else mentioned, it's hard enough getting your members to cough up for a couple of months server rental, nevermind a years subscription to a league.

Also, given the rather turbulent nature of clans which tend to have a rather short life cycle in most cases, who's going to want to pay towards £84 for a years subscription when they are not even sure that they'll still be playing the same game with the same clan in six months time?

It seems that you are trying to create a premiership league, when indeed there are only about 8 or 9 clans which would actually fit that description, whilst the rest of us are definately not able or ready to compete on that kind of level.

 

[[DiGa] Doc Roe]

I smell a rat tho. Have bazzas got a lack of subscribers and need to try and force more people to subscribe?

If it turns out option 1 wins will this be held against us at the end of the season when the admins pack up and not finish tables and league and put it down to the fact no money came in?

Id personally pay anything up to £50 to enter my clan in the league to help out with running costs but i dont want to force my clan to pay £12-14 each a year to participate 'snot really fair

 

[wildthang]

Originally posted by [DiGa] Doc Roe
I smell a rat tho. Have bazzas got a lack of subscribers and need to try and force more people to subscribe?

It definately seems like a tactic to funnel us all into sigining up for BW Subscriptions.

Lets say £20 per clan entry into a league season. Say 32 Clans competing across 3 or 4 divisions. Surely £640 would cover the six or seven weeks it'd take to run the course of the league?

 

[bigbb]

Originally posted by [DiGa] Doc Roe
I smell a rat tho. Have bazzas got a lack of subscribers and need to try and force more people to subscribe?

I've actually heard this is quite the opposite. Rumours are that it's going well, if not better than expected. As bif has already said, they're trying to move more leagues under the subs-umbrella because it provides a more rounded and valued product. Potential subscribers in the future are just going to say; "Why subscribe, when one of the largest parts (leagues) of BW, is free?"

 

[wildthang]

Originally posted by bigbb
Potential subscribers in the future are just going to say; "Why subscribe, when one of the largest parts (leagues) of BW, is free?"

But isn't BW shooting itself in the foot by driving away the majority of clans who compete in the league? We are talking about individuals who have subscribed already and not entire clans. Not everone thinks that the BW sub is fantastic, especially as some are already signed up with BY and Jolt and are unlikely to want to switch. Blueyonder offers league entry for £6.95 (entire clan) and you get the use of their servers with Rcon access. Not that I'm a BY whore or anything , just pointing out what the competition is currently offering.

 

[bigfoot]

What bigbb said is correct, it makes no sense for us to have a service such as Leagues outside the Subscription package. Because of this as far as i know we will not be introducing any "one off entrance fee" schemes, we've tried to keep this as simple as possible by giving leagues 1 decision to make (whether to go to Subscriber Only or not) and we'll see how it goes from there. It's not worth the hassle involved from our point of view, or the league admins point of view, to introduce 1 off payment schemes and overall it adds no value to the Subscription package, something which leagues are seen as being a long term part of.

The point about clans not being sure they are together for 6 months is an interesting one but one of the benefits of having a Subscription account is that it will entitle you to play in any league you want, so if you do move on to UT2K3 you would have entry to that BW League already sorted from your own individual point of view.

 

[bigfoot]

But isn't BW shooting itself in the foot by driving away the majority of clans who compete in the league?

No, it would mean that we could use the hardware elsewhere on communities & competitions where the services we provide are actually valued.

 

[[DiGa] Doc Roe]

Originally posted by bigbb
Potential subscribers in the future are just going to say; "Why subscribe, when one of the largest parts (leagues) of BW, is free?"

my point exactly, they are going to force u to subscribe to play in leagues not exactly opposit of what i said

if this decision has been made already what is the point of this thread

 

[bigbb]

Quite the opposite, was the first part of the reply, in reference to the number of subscribers. BW aren't forcing anyone to subscribe to leagues at the moment, hence we've been given this option. Future leagues, yes. But, that's because that's what the subscribers want and no-one here is being forced to do anything.

The decision evidently hasn't been made, we're doing exactly what it says on the tin here, surveying thoughts and opinions. We're not going to plainly say no or yes, without any discussion or constructive argument.

 

[[DiGa] Doc Roe]

Ok sorry my paranoia is getting the better of me too many acids in the 90s man.

it just seems that Game/eb, whatever they called now, will make over £2000 out of encouraging us all to subscribe and thats more than enough to run the league at a profit when we could get it for free in a diluted form

i say sod em stick the leather chairs up there arses (j/k) and get the el cheapo version

 

[old.[TPK]ophiuchus]

the last time i played on a BW server was in season 1.

lets think back.
1. the league and tables were never updated and when they were updated dev 1 was the only done.

2. the servers were totally crap. yeah i know that the latest patch is the course of the problem.

dont think i'm saying that if i pay the service will be better. there is no way i'm playing of a service that i have seen as sub standard in the past. some of my clan are members of the BW service but they are never on BW. why? cus the jolt ones are better, better clans play on jolt servers. if this league goes to pay only how many clans does BW think they are going to get. i can write loads more but i feel like others that BW have made up there minds. this season or next season?

you guys should really think about pay per league. looks like most are in favour.

=Alias=ophiuchus

 

[[DiGa] Doc Roe]

totally agree.

3 months ago there was alot of pissed off people on here (well 3 of us hey lads ) getting called jackass and being lead around in circles in vain hope of an explanation why the league just imploded on itself.

like ophiuchus says theres no guarantee this wont happen again even if we pay u proved u cudnt give a flying fuck about "the community" then so why wud this change?

dont get me wrong id love to see the subscription league it looks cool i just think im not the only one who would be reluctant to see £150 + gambled on the admins who last time just dissapeared at end of season