A disgrace...and he has the cheek to call it 'tough'

[old.Tohtori]

no one has that right except the judge, so in that case why even talk about anything like this?

I'm TRYING to do this "nicely", but once again, that accomplishes f*ck all...

You're talking about technical judging again, what the law says, etc.

I'm talking about the, what the to call it, moral(?) justice?

The fact if the family feels they have gotten their fair share of justice for it, is up to them.

You CAN talk about weather or not YOU would be happy with such a short sentence.

See what i'm saying?

Why talk about it is, infact, my right to do so(as you yourself stated). It's part of the issue.

 

[tris-]

but i thought the origional poster is talking about the case its self, not what the family thinks?

 

[old.Tohtori]

but i thought the origional poster is talking about the case its self, not what the family thinks?

Actually, Bugz asked "do you think the sentence is right", and i stated that i think it's the family who chooses if it's the right amount. Basically saying "i don't care", but adding why into it.

Which, as i said, regrettably was mistaken as "you SHOULDN'T talk about it!".

Which was not meant, as i explained earlier.

 

[kirennia]

What makes this kinda spooky was that I had a really weird dream last night whereby a gang of small kids attacked my dad with rocks and I ran over and threw each of them away, until I had accidentally killed one of them and I stopped...then went to prison and got let out after some period of time. You know how dreams are, time is never generally a factor.

Waking up and having this as the first thread I'd read is kinda eerie

 

[Bugz]

I'm TRYING to do this "nicely", but once again, that accomplishes f*ck all...

You're talking about technical judging again, what the law says, etc.

I'm talking about the, what the to call it, moral(?) justice?

The fact if the family feels they have gotten their fair share of justice for it, is up to them.

You CAN talk about weather or not YOU would be happy with such a short sentence.

See what i'm saying?

Why talk about it is, infact, my right to do so(as you yourself stated). It's part of the issue.

I can understand what you're saying but in my opinion, if you disregard or don't take into account technical justice, then the whole justice system would be fucked.

Some people need hard time, to a) convince them not to do it again, b) to help them back into society, c) to simply do the time, set by the government, for taking someone's else life and d) for the safety of the community.

In a way, moral justice should be factored into this. But never should moral justice be given dominance over technical justice. Elsewise, what happens to the poor community when Mr.I love Jesus gives Bob 1 year for murdering his son. He'll laugh it off and may just continue his old ways.

That said, the technical justice is fucked. Murder should carry a minimum sentence of atleast 7-8 years and there should be no appeals.

 

[tris-]

i agree but sadly criminal justice is based around morality now, gone are the days of retribution for the victim and their family.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I can underst*snip* should be no appeals.

Oh ofcourse! Technical justice is there to determine the punishment and such, and is the issue that can be discussed in a very lengthy and sometimes argumentative way.

My point, which i think you and tris- did get(after the whole explanation thing got over and done)is that the, well, yes, retribution side and what the "enough punishment" is, is mostly the families choice.

So while the judgment can be disputed of being enough/not enough, the compensation to the victim can only be judged by the victim. And in such case, if the victim says "enough", then it should be taken as enough.

 

[echome]

i agree but sadly criminal justice is based around morality now, gone are the days of retribution for the victim and their family.

Lets just all get guns, so that we can shoot each other when we think another person does something bad. Total anarchy for the win !!

 

[soze]

I think 2 years is a joke.

The problem with prison is some people see it as a badge of honour and use the time to become a better criminal. I would have every prisioner in Solitary confinement allowed out of his cell for 1 hour a day. I would give them a tv and a radio but everytime they turned either on it would run a news report of the crime they were sentenced for. Just give them nothing but time to think about what they did. They will not want to go back to easily then.

 

[echome]

I think 2 years is a joke.

The problem with prison is some people see it as a badge of honour and use the time to become a better criminal. I would have every prisioner in Solitary confinement allowed out of his cell for 1 hour a day. I would give them a tv and a radio but everytime they turned either on it would run a news report of the crime they were sentenced for. Just give them nothing but time to think about what they did. They will not want to go back to easily then.

Because driving a person mad by solitary is a great way to make them a better citizen??

 

[soze]

Because driving a person mad by solitary is a great way to make them a better citizen??

Better that putting them in prision where they learn better ways to hurt and rob people. Look at how many people re offend when coming out of prison. Then look at how many re offend with a more serious crime. Then tell me our justice system works? My way is not the answer but all we are doing now is pissing them off to let them lose again.

 

[Bugz]

Because driving a person mad by solitary is a great way to make them a better citizen??

Murderers deserve the right to become a citizen again?

Should just be butt-fucked for the rest of their lifes tbh :d

 

[Tasslehoff]

Murderers deserve the right to become a citizen again?

In Denmark, yes. The murderer gets his sentence, does his time, and then he is allowed to become a citizen again. Why else have the sentence in the first place then, if it isen't enough?

Don't know how it is in England though...

 

[Fafnir]

A 38 year old male was aquited from having raped his son. The court belived his story that he had a sexual dream during sleep and dreamt that he had sex with his wife.

And they have locked the aquital, so none can really know why he was aquited...

 

[Hawkwind]

2 years for that is a joke. PC Britain and its only going to get worse.

 

[Thadius]

A 38 year old male was aquited from having raped his son. The court belived his story that he had a sexual dream during sleep and dreamt that he had sex with his wife.

And they have locked the aquital, so none can really know why he was aquited...

His wife has the behind of a young boy?

Anyway, going to try that excuse! I was dreaming, I didnt know she said no!

 

[echome]

Murderers deserve the right to become a citizen again?

Should just be butt-fucked for the rest of their lifes tbh :d

That is the hole idea of putting people in prison. So that they know what they did was not all right and so that they can learn to behave. Else you might aswell just kill them from the start. And does that make you a better person?

I have experienced being a relative of a murdervictim, as explained earlier.
But still I don't belive in revenge. We are to help each other make this world a better place... We can't just kill or lock away forever those people who does not behave the way we want to.

With love, understanding and support we can make this world a better place - or so I belive atleast... Not with hate!

 

[Bugz]

That is the hole idea of putting people in prison. So that they know what they did was not all right and so that they can learn to behave. Else you might aswell just kill them from the start. And does that make you a better person?

I have experienced being a relative of a murdervictim, as explained earlier.
But still I don't belive in revenge. We are to help each other make this world a better place... We can't just kill or lock away forever those people who does not behave the way we want to.

With love, understanding and support we can make this world a better place - or so I belive atleast... Not with hate!

Hmmmm. I see your point but on the grounds of coming across someone with such hate and lust for chaos - is treating them with love and understanding really the right idea?

For most cases where people end up in prison (theft, fraud and so on), I think that a sentence is fair and afterwards that should be let out into the world as an equal citizen. But for those who murder, or go out with an intention to murder, or rape, should they really be given a fair equal existence when/if they come out of prison.

I think our Government is under the impression that once people do time, they cease to become criminals. Whilst for some this is true, for others it is far from the truth. It doesn't help that the PC brigade state we should give them a fair chance etc. If they've taken away the 'fair chance in society' for another human being who did NOTHING wrong but play cricket with his son, should they really be given a fair chance themselves?

Whilst pure brutal savagery as revenge does not solve problems - I still stand by the belief that pain and terror, if used correctly, will solve problems.

 

[Thorwyn]

I still stand by the belief that pain and terror, if used correctly, will solve problems.

Welcome to the middle ages.
Pain and Terror are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

If you still belive that deterrence is a valid way to couter crime, you´ve obviously missed something. Take a look, at the modern world and the countries and compare their crime rate... and you´ll see that death penalty and harsh laws are no defence against crime.

Get me right here, I don´t want to diss you. I know that it´s sometimes hard to stay calm and relaxed and yes, I also sometimes feel the urge to "punish" people who have commited a disgusting crime. But that´s an important step in the developement of mankind (yeah.. using the big words now, I know) to over this urge.

 

[Cemeterygates]

I think bugz has got a valid point with the terror thing. If the offender has nothing to fear from being caught,then they are more likely to just go ahead an do it,but if they fear the punishment for their actions...they may well think twice about doing it.
The softly softly aproach in the UK has to stop...an the human rights thing just seems like a joke to me...what about the rights of the victim? just seems like "yea sorry about that mate...but we gonna let this illegal immagrant that raped an strangled ya wife go free after 3 years without bein deported cos he may well be in danger if we send him home..think of his human rights!!"
Thats justice?

 

[gohan]

tbh murderers (if proved beyond a doubt) should be killed, they take a life they had no right to take so thier life is forfiet, pheodaphile's should ahve thier hands and cocks cut off! and rapists should be de-cocked

people that beat people half to death unprovoked should have the same treatment back

then no1 would do it ^^

atm thiers no reason not to kill some1


"you what? if i kill some 1 i get 7 years in jail? RENT FREE? and cash when i get out? can i ahve a playstation in my cell? oh and single cell please i never learned to share well"

 

[tris-]

but criminal justice is NOT about retribution, its about moral wrongs.

 

[echome]

tbh murderers (if proved beyond a doubt) should be killed, they take a life they had no right to take so thier life is forfiet, pheodaphile's should ahve thier hands and cocks cut off! and rapists should be de-cocked

people that beat people half to death unprovoked should have the same treatment back

then no1 would do it ^^

atm thiers no reason not to kill some1


"you what? if i kill some 1 i get 7 years in jail? RENT FREE? and cash when i get out? can i ahve a playstation in my cell? oh and single cell please i never learned to share well"

I only have one thing to say to you, take a look at the US death penealty system! They have in no way less crime than places without the DP.

You have to remember that most killing is not because "I don't like you, so I kill you". But because of money problems or crime of passion. Situations where people don't think about their acts.

 

[gohan]

I only have one thing to say to you, take a look at the US death penealty system! They have in no way less crime than places without the DP.

You have to remember that most killing is not because "I don't like you, so I kill you". But because of money problems or crime of passion. Situations where people don't think about their acts.

ye its all circumstantial obviously, but vicoius savage thugs should be in no way tolerated and should be wiped of the planet (also being drunk is no fucking excuse whatsoever)

 

[tris-]

yes but you have to wonder why someone is like that. there may well be something outside of our control that makes us do this stuff. so rather than punish for the 'will' to do it but punish for that fact that for some reason it goes against what we all think. i.e. its immoral.

 

[Golena]

Anyone under the age of 16 who commits an offence that deserves jail time should not only be sent to jail, but both parents should do the same time as the kid.

Maybe then we'll see some actual proper parenting, instead of: out it pops, yay another social security check to go get pissed with. Piss off little Chav, go hang round the street corner!

 

[kirennia]

tbh murderers (if proved beyond a doubt) should be killed, they take a life they had no right to take so thier life is forfiet,

Just to clarify, if a mans wife (as an example) is chronically ill, in severe pain every day and pleading with him to end her life and he in turn does so, it's still classed as murder in most countries. Should someone murder your entire family and you seek revenge, it's still murder. If you step into help an old lady being beaten to death by a gang and you accidentally hit someone in the wrong place killing them, it's still murder.

The prolbem with it all is that there is a very large, thick grey line between the truly evil crime of the world and crimes of compassion. Where do you draw the line of absolution?

 

[Dillinja]

mmk

 

[tierk]

The legal system in the Uk is a total failure. People can get away with all kinds of crimes and it wont even get reported as the victim knows invariably that the culprit will never be caught or if they are caught the CPS wont charge them or if they do charge someone it is because they tried to defend themselves or their property. A classic example of this .......

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Norfolk | Timeline: The Tony Martin case


Murderers, Rapists and sicko's that do shit to kids all deserve to die imho and the only time clemency should be shown is when the victims or the remaining relatives of victims choose to show forgiveness.

Prison is like a university for crooks with people going in for shopp lifting and coming out drug dealers or bank robbers. Another major probelm with prisn in the UK is the fact that a large percentage of the people that pass through the system arrive on the other side of there sentences drug addicts as well as hardened crooks.

These are two issues which current policy just doesnt address and need to be as i am sure i read a report somewhere once showing that a large proportion of smaller types of crimes (burglary, shopping lifting etc) are commited by junkies trying to feed there habits.

Imo they should legalise all drugs and make them readily available just like cigerattes. This would have three benefits firstly it would remove the need for drug dealers and the associated misery they cause and the second factor would be that there would be a massive new source of income for the government which could be used to help rehabilatate (nerf my spelling) other criminals who have commited lessor offenses. The last benefit from this policy would be to remove a very large proportion of people in jail for drug related offenses.

 

[Calaen]

The problem with the tony martin case is that he shot the guy in the back when he was running away. The whole point of defending yourself or property is to do so only when threatened. He had confronted them and they were getting the hell out of there.

I do feel for him though, he was repeatedly broken into. Plus the guys that were doing it were scum of the earth and he had no reason to believe they would not kill him. However he crossed the thin line when he shot the lad in the back.