A compromise?

Deebs

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I received this from LoxleyHood in my PM box, comments please, and do not flame or make shitty remarks, I won't be impressed.

Contrary to what people may believe on these forums, myself and Ted want it to be happy, friendly and above all a solid community, regardless of what game you play. We hope other gamers will come here and mingle, this mindless "us" and "them" bollox is just plain stupid. Anyway, here is the private message:


Loxleyhood said:
I don't see the eOT dispute being ended in any other way than every poster there being banned. I will tell you now that nobody in eOT or many other forums will go along with what the mods want while they disagree with it but we are not so naive as to believe that the mods will ever change their minds or the admins will change the CoC.

So this is what I suggest. You will remember that just prior to Barrysworld closing down there was a scheme floating around about the E&E team for the forums where each forum would receive it's own E&E member. I don't know what happened to this idea, whether it was abandoned or was just shelved when GAME closed Barrysworld but I propose an evolved system of the E&E idea.

I think that this idea should be used for all sub-forums on Freddyshouse. For example an E&E member for Excal General, Excal Alb, Hib, Mid, Excal RvR... etc. etc.

But firstly using eOT as a testing ground, I suggest that an E&E member be picked (either by poll or by the admins/mods) who writes the rules for that particular sub forum. Although these rules should include the FH CoC they should also allow the members of that forum to build it up in the way they see fit, thus making them happier with the situation and more likely to accept actions taken by the mods. Once these rules have been written up and finalised by the E&E member by means of discussion with the forum regulars they should be sent off to the mods/admins for alteration or agreement. Once a set of rules is made that both sides agree on the E&E member should post it and sticky it. These rules should govern how both posters and moderators behave.

I tried to write some rules for eOT on FH's first day, but without any support to back them up the idea was abandoned. https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=162
If I was to write the rules for eOT I would build upon these.

E&E members should be given a limited moderating capacity, i.e the ability to close/open threads, make polls and make threads stickies. The most important thing if this idea is to work is that E&E members must be treated with respect and attention by mods/admins. Any E&E member would know the mood of a sub-forum and would know the best course of action in certain situations. It is my belief that because Jupitus started moderating in eOT without understanding the mood of the forum that we know have the problems we have.

I have no posted this in feedback because I do not like the responses I get in there, but I will post it if you want me to.
 

BlitheringIdiot

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Sad that such steps need to be taken, but I like the idea - same as I liked it over on BW.

The initial thought of many people when reading this would be 'well no other forum except eOT would need this kind of thing'. The generalites pride themselves on their ability to mod themselves, thats fine - they are all adults. However the DAoC community is not, at the moment eOT seems to be the only area as we are the only people who use the forums enough to have moved over. As soon as BW closes a flood of morons will appear.

Anyway, I'd like to give this idea a try.
 

dysfunction

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Excuse my ignorance but what is:

eOT
E&E
Excal General, Excal Alb, Hib, Mid, Excal RvR... etc. etc
 

BlitheringIdiot

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dysfunction said:
Excuse my ignorance but what is:

eOT
E&E
Excal General, Excal Alb, Hib, Mid, Excal RvR... etc. etc
You dont know yet you voted in the thread, to have them changed? :eek:

eOT = Excalibur Offtopic Forum
E&E = Eyes and ears, just a term that damini thought up for people in the role lox discussed.
The others are all just examples of other DAoC forums.
 

Cyfr

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dysfunction said:
Excuse my ignorance but what is:

eOT
E&E
Excal General, Excal Alb, Hib, Mid, Excal RvR... etc. etc
We are talking about the game daoc. There are two english servers, Prydwen and Excal.

Within the game are three realms, inshort, Alb, hib, and mid :).
"Excal General, Excal Alb, Hib, Mid, Excal RvR" are the different subforums for Excal server, like there are the same for Prydwen server.

E&E means Eyes and Ears I assume. Which (in daoc) are people who keep their.. erm, eyes and ears open and can contact gamesmasters to sort problems out.
:wub:
 

k9awya

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good luck picking someone from excal OT able to do this.

making rules for me and closing my threads? a mere mortal? i sincerely hope not!
 

dysfunction

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Aaah thanks for the info.



BlitheringIdiot said:
You dont know yet you voted in the thread, to have them changed? :eek:
I voted on the general layout....and the new layout looked better imo
I dont have to know all the details...

:p
 

Deebs

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k9awya said:
good luck picking someone from excal OT able to do this.

making rules for me and closing my threads? a mere mortal? i sincerely hope not!
Again you presume so so much. Even if it did go ahead the community would choose. You know, same as I dislike Tony Blair but the community of Britain chose him over all overs. I have to live with that else leave the country.

We are all mere mortals in life. Perhaps you need to step down off your pedastal.
 

Scooba da Bass

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It seems to me that maintaining specific rules and (ot) forums for DAoC just adds to the 'them' and 'us' and a lack of community spirit that you seem to want. Despite a few idiots on both sides when sensible people who in the past have posted pretty exclusively in the DAoC forums post here everything is fine, look at the large number of 'DAoCers' who are regular posters in General and Entertainment.

Encourage a merging; clamp down on the General idiots who tar every daoc player with the same brush, and clamp down on the Daoc idiots who feel the need to spam. It's a vocal minority who give the impression of problems between the two at the moment. A larger posting base in the same place can only be a good thing for the forums, and will give that community spirit.
 

Deebs

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Scooba da Bass said:
It seems to me that maintaining specific rules and (ot) forums for DAoC just adds to the 'them' and 'us' and a lack of community spirit that you seem to want. Despite a few idiots on both sides when sensible people who in the past have posted pretty exclusively in the DAoC forums post here everything is fine, look at the large number of 'DAoCers' who are regular posters in General and Entertainment.

Encourage a merging; clamp down on the General idiots who tar every daoc player with the same brush, and clamp down on the Daoc idiots who feel the need to spam. It's a vocal minority who give the impression of problems between the two at the moment. A larger posting base in the same place can only be a good thing for the forums, and will give that community spirit.
I am not sure. The DAOC game is a rather complex system which even I cannot begin to understand, and they would appear to want the same system applied to the forums. If this is what they want they can have it, hence the thread being created. I have spoken to Ted and we don't want to enforce stuff on people unless it is a last resort. This way anyone can give feedback.
 

Damini

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I think having different rules for each sub forum is going to end up very messey, and just encourage insular behaviour with each sub forum - i.e. people not wanting to stray into different forums because they don't understand the rules too well. Also, giving the E&E's the ability to lock threads is going to cause nightmares too I think - it's bound to cause a clash with the moderators, and you all know what they say about too many cooks.

The original E and E idea came about because the forums were becoming so damned evil and bitchy, and complaints were (quite legitamately) coming in about people's language and conduct. Some people seemed quite unable to report a post, yet more than happy to sit around wearing sack cloth, beating their chests and wailing about the posts being made. The EnE idea was to ensure that each community had a vocal member that felt able to liase with the mods and explain that little sub community better, and discuss any problems or issues. It was never thought up as mini mods, but more community liason.

I think the idea of giving community representatives the ability to make stickies and polls in each sub DAoC community is a great idea, but I think the ability to create rules and close threads is just going to cause too many problems. The DAoC forums don't need seperate rules, the general CoC applies, and everything above is just a matter of forum ettiquette rather than rules cast in stone.
 

SoWat

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The basic idea, of building a community based on their desires, is a good one.

My suggestion would be:

Allow the DAoC mods to moderate.
They are the ones most in tune with DAoC player's moods and such. General 'super mods' crashing in doesn't do much for their morale, nor for the feeling of community as a whole. Give one of the DAoC mods full moderation rights to that forum (including temporary/permanent banning). That way it's all kept within the 'community'.

That would be the foundation for anything else that might be required. If the members/mods wanted E&E for the forums, they'd handle it themselves through their own hierachy (of course major forum changes would have to go through Deebs etc).

Erm... that's it really :D
 

pez

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I think an eyes and ears type thing for eOT would be a great improvement so long as it was chosen by the mods not the community.


I often get the impression though, and especially from the rules he posted on the first day, that Lox wants gis own private gentlemans club and i think that would be bad for everyone.


On the topic of an E&E i think theres one name that instantly springs to mind as a mature, sensible but key member of the eOT community who knows where to draw the line, and anyone who has any experience of eOT can probably name him too.
 

Loxleyhood

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Know that the thread I give as an example is just a very vague example and I did not have the purpose of a FH E&E when I wrote them.
 

MYstIC G

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Damini said:
I think having different rules for each sub forum is going to end up very messey, and just encourage insular behaviour with each sub forum - i.e. people not wanting to stray into different forums because they don't understand the rules too well. Also, giving the E&E's the ability to lock threads is going to cause nightmares too I think - it's bound to cause a clash with the moderators, and you all know what they say about too many cooks.

The original E and E idea came about because the forums were becoming so damned evil and bitchy, and complaints were (quite legitamately) coming in about people's language and conduct. Some people seemed quite unable to report a post, yet more than happy to sit around wearing sack cloth, beating their chests and wailing about the posts being made. The EnE idea was to ensure that each community had a vocal member that felt able to liase with the mods and explain that little sub community better, and discuss any problems or issues. It was never thought up as mini mods, but more community liason.

I think the idea of giving community representatives the ability to make stickies and polls in each sub DAoC community is a great idea, but I think the ability to create rules and close threads is just going to cause too many problems. The DAoC forums don't need seperate rules, the general CoC applies, and everything above is just a matter of forum ettiquette rather than rules cast in stone.
Well I'd like to add the following 2p worth of feedback
  • E&E is a waste of time imho. Report post allows people to report threads and anyone conciencious enough will use it (and I've got the report e-mails to prove it). E&E would just be imho a pointless status symbol which would add another "segragation" arguement for everyone to bitch about (i.e. if they get this & the other don't = war)
  • Having done some test work this afternoon with DBs, it is possible to make the DAoC forums "Opt In". This hasn't been done as TedTheDog feels it would segragate the community & I have to agree he's right. However I would like to suggest that after the current DAoC poll is over that a poll is put forward to the DAoC members (through an announcement in their section or something) asking them if they would consider being "Opt In" as an option. By the way we did play with making it possible to "Opt Out" of seeing DAoC due to vB weren't able to. Imho this current bullshit segragates DAoC anyway so it seems only fair that they should decide if they want to be segrogated.
*shrug*
 

MYstIC G

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Basically DAoC forums would not be immediately visable, you'd click a link or two to join a DAoC usergroup & then all the DAoC areas would be available to you. Basically you'd choose to be able to see DAoC. From my pov it would stop all the bitching taking place by peeps from general as you'd never see DAoC sections unless you chose to, so if they chose to then bitched they'd be hypocrites & could be told "shut up, it was your choice"
 

Loxleyhood

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How would that be different from what we have now? It's not as if you can find yourself in the DAoC forums without wanting to be there.
 

Scooba da Bass

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I suspect it means that nothing would contain posts from DAoC if you're not 'Opt-In'. For instance, Relavent threads wouldn't link to DAoC for a user who hasn't opted in.
 

MYstIC G

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Scooba da Bass said:
I suspect it means that nothing would contain posts from DAoC if you're not 'Opt-In'. For instance, Relavent threads wouldn't link to DAoC for a user who hasn't opted in.
Correct.
 

Jupitus

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Loxleyhood said:
Seems a long way to go to back up a stereotypical dislike.
Indeed, and a shame it's come about in this fashion, but then you can't argue with the masses, eh?
 

Loxleyhood

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Jupitus said:
Indeed, and a shame it's come about in this fashion, but then you can't argue with the masses, eh?
Why not? You've been doing it for a while.
 

'Shy

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MYstIC G said:
Basically DAoC forums would not be immediately visable, you'd click a link or two to join a DAoC usergroup & then all the DAoC areas would be available to you. Basically you'd choose to be able to see DAoC. From my pov it would stop all the bitching taking place by peeps from general as you'd never see DAoC sections unless you chose to, so if they chose to then bitched they'd be hypocrites & could be told "shut up, it was your choice"
*jumps up and down* That was my idea! Like, ages ago! I said that in another thread! *waves* :clap:

Here, look: https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?p=19382#post19382
 

MYstIC G

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Loxleyhood said:
Seems a long way to go to back up a stereotypical dislike.
Well actually we wanted to do "Opt Out" but vB is wank & limited and unless there is a modification created for this purpose it wouldn't work that way (i.e. those who don't like something could choose to hide it & it wouldn't just be a DAoC option).

Frankly I'm just trying to come up with an idea that will benefit everyone, my only problem with DAoC was that things were always done that were always refused before their existance historically on BW/Game (i.e. forum skins, etc) but since that's dead as of the 23rd I'm not holding any grudge, all I want personally is everyone to stfu about it & go back happily to their posting.

Oh & shy I'd suggested it to Tony on IRC long before that.

Edit: and on here two hours before you as well https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?p=19104#post19104 :p
 

RandomBastard

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SoWat said:
The basic idea, of building a community based on their desires, is a good one.

My suggestion would be:

Allow the DAoC mods to moderate.
They are the ones most in tune with DAoC player's moods and such. General 'super mods' crashing in doesn't do much for their morale, nor for the feeling of community as a whole. Give one of the DAoC mods full moderation rights to that forum (including temporary/permanent banning). That way it's all kept within the 'community'.

That would be the foundation for anything else that might be required. If the members/mods wanted E&E for the forums, they'd handle it themselves through their own hierachy (of course major forum changes would have to go through Deebs etc).

Erm... that's it really :D
That seperatles daoc from fh even more though. A better idea prehaps is the super mods learn more about daoc, either through the current mods, or a community representative.

While i respect the fact that the people in the excalibur off topic forum like it the way they want it and want there own standards, i feel if this is done it should no be to the deteriment of other Freddy'shouse users. Threads about "trivial" (for want of a better word) nature are ok, but spam of large quantities could theoretically cause complications for the rest of the forum. So things like spam and using extreme insults (such as the 'go die of aids' comments that have been used in the past) should be bannable offences no matter what forum you browse in.
 

Ch3tan

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Ok, it seems that most of the spam etc comes from the OT forums (dont get stressed yet OT posters, wait for the rest of my post!). So instead of making the enitre daoc forum opt in, why not make just the OT forums opt in?

As has already been said, the majority from BW still haven't transferred over to FH yet, if the DAOC OT's are opt in and there are announcements or stickies in place permently advertising them then no one will miss out if they want to participate in them.

This would help clear up the related threads for a start, I am not sure if it is even possible, but its a solution I feel does not discriminate or segregrate the entire daoc community.

Remember the fargate forum @ BW guys? It was hidden, you didnt have to go there if you didnt want to, it was full of spam, and thus it offended no one.
 

Loxleyhood

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I had my heart on solving a problem rather than sweeping it under the rug though..........
 

Damini

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I think it's rather sad when it comes to the stage of isolating a communities from each other because of an EXTREMELY small amount of people. If you create an "Us" and "Them" mentality, then some hostilities are going to manifest out of that situation. If you look at DAoC, the whole game revolves around a completely bullshit, made-up war between the realms. It's what keeps the game going. Why then do you get people going "I fucking hate all Albion/Middie/Hib scum, I wish you would die, faggots!!" etc... Because people are told there is animosity, so some morons go on to create it. Creating opt in or opt out just goes further to distance the different sides of the forum.

95 % of the DAoC forum users are really nice, which I would say is pretty much the same percentage going on in the General forums. I think it would be a sad thing if the DAoC forums are hidden away, like Bertha in the attic. Most of the people that were originally the problem have been banned, or moderated enough to know better. Admittedly, there was a problem with moderation not being strict enough in the DAoC forums for a while, and things festered. People talked utter shite, or just moronically farmed, and there was quite a lot of animosity. It was widespread, and therefore very hard to get under control. However, in my opinion it DID get under control, and the forums are a lot better for it.

Freddyhouse is a new start, and I think it's too soon to decide to cut the place in two. Let it settle down a bit, see how things work out.

And Meg, report post may very well work for most forums, but at the time we had a problem in the DAoC forums, and reporting posts simply wasn't cutting it - and I read the letters of complaint from parents to know that (and bearing in mind I moderated both General and DAoC, so I saw what types of posts were reported for different areas too). The idea never progressed because the problems seemed to ease up, and also because it was a hypothetical anyway, never set in stone, just a musing on what could be done to make things better.

Anyway, that's my tyrade. I think it's really a minority of DAoC posters that people have a problem with, or maybe even simply recollections from a time wihen the DAoC forums were a little wild and wholly. I'd rather see forum relations worked on, rather than a method for segregating the two worked on.
 

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