6 orgasms in just over an hour! (Necro-thread!!!)

[tris-]

if someone is going to kill them selves then surely theyd do it regardless of whos saying what.

 

[Scouse]

if someone is going to kill them selves then surely theyd do it regardless of whos saying what.

:eek2:

Have you really tried to think about how that possible jumper was feeling before he actually became a jumper?

That's like saying "well, surely he became depressed and maladjusted because he could easily ignore what other people were saying..."

 

[nath]

Apparently he was up there for a couple of hours, so clearly he wasn't 100% about it, otherwise he would have just jumped.

 

[tris-]

:eek2:

Have you really tried to think about how that possible jumper was feeling before he actually became a jumper?

no.
its just my opinnion that if someone is going to do something then they will.

 

[nath]

Like I said, they were up there talking to him for 2 hours. Being suicidal is not a binary thing, it's not a case of either you are or you're not. Clearly people can be talked back, and I think it's likely that the crowd shouting at him to jump seriously contributed to his death.

 

[tris-]

if they are talked back then imo maybe they never actually wanted to kill them selves in the first place.

 

[nath]

So are you suggesting that everyone who has ever committed suicide had absolutely no chance of changing their mind. No possibility that they could be talked around, and vice versa. No one that thought about committing suicide could be pushed to it?

You should phone the Samaritans and tell them to shut up shop, sounds like they're wasting their time.

 

[tris-]

personally i believe in pre-determinism and not free will.
so what happens is what happens and there isnt an alternative to the event.

 

[nath]

I actually believe in that too to a certain extent, but I don't think that actually relates to this at all. It also doesn't excuse actions of people at all and I think it's entirely likely that had the crowd not shouted at this guy to jump, he may not have.

 

[Scouse]

no.
its just my opinnion that if someone is going to do something then they will.

Well, perhaps a bit more thought is needed. There's no point in having opinions if you don't bother to think about them before accepting that that's what your view is...

if they are talked back then imo maybe they never actually wanted to kill them selves in the first place.

Ah, I see it now. You've got the arse and don't want to admit that perhaps you should have used the grey matter before opening your gob...

personally i believe in pre-determinism and not free will.
so what happens is what happens and there isnt an alternative to the event.

Ah. My bad. I see what it is now.

Your opinions are "nob cheese"

 

[tris-]

if you say so.
there is no proof either way that we have free will or actions are predetermined.

so your oppinnions are "fish fanny"

 

[Scouse]

if you say so.
there is no proof either way that we have free will or actions are predetermined.

so your oppinnions are "fish fanny"

Glad we're back on sex

 

[nath]

Tris, if someone murdered a member of your family, would you say "oh well, it's pre-determinism, was always bound to happen" or would you feel a bit angry at the killer?

Things people do have an affect on other people, philosophical ideas are great but they don't change this simple fact.

 

[tris-]

of course since being a human i experience emotions, controllable or not.

there is no hard fact either way that free will is real or an illusion. and i dont believe in a god either before someone pulls that one of out the hat to use against me. i have all kinds of ideas on the subject but maybe that is for another thread.

if someone gives me 100% solid proof that free will is how the universe works then ill believe you

add to that, is there any point trying to explain my thought since its already been described as "nob cheese" and nath does not agree with it in any way at all.

 

[nath]

But that's hardly the point. The issue is that people shouted "jump" at a guy who was suicidal. If you're having suicidal thoughts, having a crowd of people reinforce them is not going to help matters at all. I don't think any of your free will ideas relate to this issue at all.

 

[kirennia]

Whether you beleive in free will or whatever doesn't really relate to this case. It relates when you start thinking about whether you actually have any choices but then again, the fact that you're thinking about it may be because you indeed, have no free will.

The point still stands though, whether people had a choice or not, they still shouldn't have shouted...think Nath just summed it up. If everyone suddenly turned around and accepted that any action they did was predetermined so they couldn't feel guilty about it, the world would tear itself apart in a matter of days...

Simply put, I have zero tolerance for blind stupidity like that. Lock them up... if someone is standing there talking for 2 hours, the chances are they don't really want to do it anyway and it's just an attention seeking thing. Having people shout like that would just make them feel like they can't back down else fear embarressment... or maybe they just ended up proving a point and jumping anyway.

Saying people who have started to take steps to end their own lives have zero way of turning back is just plain stupid. I'd bet my own life that in the history of mankind, of all the millions of people who have tried to take their own lives or taken steps towards it, some are still alive now and have sorted their shit out. If you don't beleive anyone has then... well nevermind, no matter what's said, *I'm out from this conversation

edit : * - May or may not end up true in the end...

 

[tris-]

kirennia i agree, it is undesirable for them to shout "jump". and if theyve broken a law, then hopefully they will get their punishment.

 

[nath]

"Undesirable". Really? That's it?

Fucking hell tris :\

 

[Scouse]

add to that, is there any point trying to explain my thought since its already been described as "nob cheese" and nath does not agree with it in any way at all.

I'd guess you'd say it was pre-determined that you're a quitter then eh?

 

[nath]

add to that, is there any point trying to explain my thought since its already been described as "nob cheese" and nath does not agree with it in any way at all.

But the thing is, I understand your point and I also have certain ideas that match yours with respect to free-will, but when it comes to everyday life these ideas simply don't apply. Plus, the fact that you're trying to rationalise all of this, and at best you can say what was done was "undesirable" shows a fundamental lack of empathy that I wish I could say was shocking, but I guess everyone here knows my opinion of humanity now.

 

[rynnor]

On the jumper its completely possible he would have jumped anyway but thats not really the point - the people shouting jump are obviously idiots but I dont think they have broken any laws.

Did they really expect him to jump or were they just joking around or what - no one can truely know whats going through the mind of another.

Suicide seems to have a genetic component - it runs in one of my friends family who told me a story about his uncle. The guy had been laid off in his home country so moved to the uk to see if he could do better here - when things didnt work out here he quietly hung himself - no note or other 'cries for help'.

My friend said his uncle had basically put it as an option in his mind like either A - job works out in UK or B - suicide, with no particular preference for either.

I think it is perceiving suicide as just another option that sets the real suicidal folk apart from everyone else...

 

[tris-]

I'd guess you'd say it was pre-determined that you're a quitter then eh?

im not quitting but if you simply will glance at my ideas and then say anyway that they are crap, is there any need to use my time up to type it all out

i dont know what to tell you nath. maybe its just the way i am but i have a hard time caring about a lot of things and i see 90% of all situations in a black and white manner.
im not saying "who gives a shit" im saying i just dont seem to be able to care about it. i have never really had the capacity to empathise which is probably why i had a hard time working in customer service type jobs. i just see a situation is black or its white, and thats all there is to it.
i dont really know any other way to describe it, i just feel i dont have that capacity. i know what it means, but i havent really experienced it my self.

im finding it difficult to understand why you would be shocked that people lack empathy. have you thought that simply some people just do not posses the ability for it?

 

[nath]

Well you are what you are, tris but there's a difference between feeling not much/nothing for the situation and basing your actions/beliefs on those feelings. You admit that you have trouble empathising, that's fine but you were arguing that what happened there wasn't a big deal. Surely you can see that it was, even if you don't *feel* it.

 

[Scouse]

have you thought that simply some people just do not posses the ability for it?

Only the autistic. The rest of us Britons lack it because we're taught to do so by "society"... (But again, I'm keeping that lid shut - but it does sit nicely with previous posts).

Anyway. I guess you're not a "quitter" because you replied to my post - but then again, you were pre-determined to do so, before I even took the piss!

 

[tris-]

maybe ive not explained my self clearly then. im not saying its not a big deal in general. i can understand that it will affect who ever is close to him i.e. his parents.
i understand that it doesnt help for people to shout "jump". but this is where i come to a problem, because they didnt break a law i have a hard time determining how bad what they did actually is. though i can understand your view on the whys, hows etc

but to me personally i will still stick to the outcome as being "undesirable" because obviously the better outcome is that the whole thing didnt happen in the first place.

scouse: im glad you agree with me that the whole discussion was already determined. its ncie to see im getting through to you. on the other point re: society. personally for me its not a recent thing, i have been the same since i was younger. and i can tell you back then i wasnt sat in watching the news or looking at rotten.com so i dont think its something ive learnt.

 

[nath]

I said I *wish* I could find it shocking tris, but I don't. It's just what I've come to expect from people now.

I don't see what breaking the law has to do with it, laws and morals are completely independent things. We generally try and make laws based on our moral values but something being legal doesn't mean it's moral, or OK.

If you had a family member that was suicidal, and ended up taking their own life to chants of "jump" from a crowd, aside from all the other emotions going through your mind, would you not feel angry at the crowd? Would you not question whether this family member would have actually gone through with the act had he/she not been goaded by a completely uncompassionate crowd?

 

[tris-]

I said I *wish* I could find it shocking tris, but I don't. It's just what I've come to expect from people now.

i see what you mean buit like you say there is a difference. some people just dont give a shit because they chose to, others dont understand the problem to form an opinion and then others such as me dont seem to be able to do what you can do.
so sure, you can expect it from people. but it might help to understand their reason first

 

[nath]

i see what you mean buit like you say there is a difference. some people just dont give a shit because they chose to, others dont understand the problem to form an opinion and then others such as me dont seem to be able to do what you can do.
so sure, you can expect it from people. but it might help to understand their reason first

Practically speaking I'm not sure it makes much of a difference. I wouldn't want anything to do with anyone who chooses not to give a shit, and the same goes for anyone who lacks the ability to give a shit. It strikes me that ultimately it would amount to the same thing, just as being murdered by a psychopath isn't much better than being murdered by someone in a blind rage*.




*apologies for the extreme example but I couldn't really think of anything else.

 

[tris-]

1would you not feel angry at the crowd?
2Would you not question whether this family member would have actually gone through with the act

1 - i would probably think i would be angry.
2 - yes i would question it, but it wouldnt be in the context of free will or not.

re: the law point. i understand what you mean. if something is legal it doesnt mean its ok. probably in this situation its a good idea to question should what they did be illegal. imo it probably should be.

Practically speaking I'm not sure it makes much of a difference. I wouldn't want anything to do with anyone who chooses not to give a shit, and the same goes for anyone who lacks the ability to give a shit.

the different that i can see is that someone is actually choosing (well, they have the illusion that they are choosing) and the other doesnt have the ability to make the choice.
its like saying someone with a red and blue car can choose which one to drive. but someone with two red cars can only choose a red car.

 

[nath]

I really think that's a completely different issue, the fact of the matter is - some poor guy was unhappy enough to consider suicide. An uncaring crowd suggested that he jumps, he does and now he's dead. Arguments about free will and legality are a little inappropriate.