4 reasons why Chanters are over powered

[old.Charonel]

Originally posted by Fingoniel
5 seconds on a Determination tank - a lot more on a caster.

sorry, just not true, any determination tank (especially with the lower cost ra's next patch) will have aom to a good lvl too, as well as the capped resists since it's number 1 priority for any pure tank that isnt completely stupid.

been worked out, and also confirmed by what happens pretty much all the time on US servers is that on determination tanks the stun doesnt even last as long as i takes to cast it anymore, on more or less anyone else it only lasts 5ish seconds, with an almost 3 second cast time, that buys you around 2.5-3seconds taking into account the cast time, a DD from a hib caster takes pretty much that long to cast anyway so it's genuinly not even worth casting it, you may as well cast a DD for less power in a shorter time and you dont lose anything from not casting stun

i believe the exact figure on a well ra specced pure tank was about a duration of 2.8 seconds or something , yeah a well uber 9 second stun that one

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by old.Charonel
btw, to those who dont know, wild power 3 = roughly a crit every 3rd hit.

couple that with mastery of magery 3 and you have an extra 9% damage on each hit as well as the wild power crits, along with relic(s) there can be an extra 10% as currently, or an extra 20% with both relics. so what do we have?

since crits can be from 0% to 50% extra damage in rvr, we've got to consider each crit being 25% extra damage, spread over three hits that's an extra 8.5% damage overall for wild power 3.

a straight up extra 10% damage with one relic, 20% extra with two.

and an extra 9% damage with mastery of magery 3.

this means, that with one extra power relic (ten % bonus, as we have now) those overpowered chanters are actually only overpowered because the ra's they have and the relics total up roughly an extra 27.5% damage, WHEN we get OUR other power relics back , that'll increase to an extra 37.5% damage. perhaps this gives you the reason why our casters hit hard?

If you're going to throw numbers about, at least get them right Charonel. WP is 5% per level extra crit chance. Base chance to crit is 10%. WP3 is therefore 25% chance to crit.
So it's 25% extra every 4th hit on average which is 6.25% extra for WP3.

 

[Jiggs]

2 things that annoy me most about albion are that we have no usable mana regen in RvR and no speed on any of our rez capable classes

both of these are easily accesible on HIb/Mid: Mentalist crack and Healer PoM, while bards/wardens/healer all have a speed buff.

mezz i dont care about stunn is the mother of all evils imo.

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Outlaw
PPS Fire Wizards have heat debuffs in their secondary cold line...

tis a misprint - it's a cold debuff

 

[Flimgoblin]

Originally posted by old.Charonel

i believe the exact figure on a well ra specced pure tank was about a duration of 2.8 seconds or something , yeah a well uber 9 second stun that one

So basically to survive against an enchanter you need to be high realm rank?

The 5 seconds resist requires you to have
a: max resistance to heat (not too hard)
b: max heat resistance buffs (hrm not quite so easy)
c: not been heat resistance debuffed.. now who in hib gets that one again...

I'm not saying stun is stupidly overpowered (like some seem to be saying) - I'm of two minds about that it's damned annoying that's for sure.

However it's far from being useless.

 

[old.Charonel]

Originally posted by Danyan

If you're going to throw numbers about, at least get them right Charonel. WP is 5% per level extra crit chance. Base chance to crit is 10%. WP3 is therefore 25% chance to crit.
So it's 25% extra every 4th hit on average which is 6.25% extra for WP3.

15% base + 15% from wp3 = 30%, ie basically a crit every 3 hits

there's another thread around here that gives the 15% base thingy.

 

[Vireb]

Originally posted by belth


That'd do good. Leaves healing to healing classes.

hehe amuzing coming from a soon to be nerfed assasin

 

[Treniel-]

oh i give up....yes enchanters are gimped to bits they never get kills do they..i mean there isn't a single rr1+ enchanter?! how can they be good



i doubt any hib is ever gona admit that enchanters are overpowered but its a fact they are.

 

[Talifer]

Originally posted by freemem
Ok, there was 1 person who didn't figure out the error, i noticed it but kinda hoped it was too obvius and ppl would understand.

Now, to treniel: i wrote radius when i ment range, sorry.

kthxbye

To the ppl whining here, plz post screenys ( im sure u took them if u feel that bad ) and logs with your class & level's. Lets c how much i did hit and to who Oki?

I dont keep log on so i cant check those.

Im looking forward to c who's getting aoe dmg over 800 alltho we must remember i do lot's of criticals with wild power 3.

Prolly wont comment anymore till screenys & logs.

You want screenshots, here you go this is Carn, with his PB he did this in 2 fights which were 15 minutes apart so no 30 minute RAs in both, notice on the screenshots I'm hitting him in the face throughout, he was also being hit by several other people, but manages a nice 801 damage twice in a row, and a few 800s in the fight 15 minutes earlier. If you're telling me it's balanced that a guy can drop 4-5 tanks in 2-3 nukes while they are all hitting him, then I'm afraid I can't agree.

Talifer

 

[old.Charonel]

yeah there's a little thing called quick cast, since niether SS shows you getting hit more than once i'd reckon that if he's casting at you while in meelee it'd be a quickcast, those SS arn't proof of anything other than you (in ONE shot) hit a mage and then got nuked, all mages can do that, in the other shot you didnt even hit him apparently.

if your gonna post a SS and call it proof, at least have it displaying the proof in the first place.

 

[Aussie-]

you're a fucking mong if you say chanters arent overpowered
killing red mobs solo from lvl 20 already, able to kill red ppl on pvp without any probs.

play pvpchar as a no speed class without pet. You have 0,0 % chance

 

[Talifer]

I'm not calling it proof of anything, you can believe what you want, you know as well as I how much damage you can do, if you want to lie about it that's up to you, we all know you can hit for these amounts of damage so why deny it?

The fact of the matter is, this enchanter hit for 801 damage twice in a row while I was hitting him and while others were hitting him, he did this twice in 15 minutes, so don't tell me it's a 14 point RA that gives you this kind of power, that just gives even more power to an already over powered class.

Now you can say other PBers can do this kind of damage, that's probably true, so why does the enchanter need a snare nuking pet? Why does the enchanter need a base line stun so you can't retliate? It doesn't all these things together make the enchanter an overpowered class

I posted this screen shot because you people asked for one showing that damage, it shows that kind of damage so what are you now arguing about?

Talifer

 

[Tyka]

Originally posted by old.Charonel


15% base + 15% from wp3 = 30%, ie basically a crit every 3 hits

there's another thread around here that gives the 15% base thingy.

Base chance to crit is 10%, if u search the herald from "critical" you will find sanya saying this.

 

[Jiggs]

heh like someone says when u whine about hib classes abilities:

'but hibernia is the magical realm'


i hate fighting hibs cos of this BS, rather have an stand up even fight with mids any day

albs vs mids = fun win or lose
albs vs hibs = whine

 

[Tranquil-]

Charonel, utility > a bit more damage, when it comes to wiz vs eld. You know that, or else you'd be playing a wiz now

Ranged utility(as in NS, CC etc.) > all

And that stun you have is only useless against high RR tanks, the rest will still be affected by it to a much greater extent than the tanks. Tanks are the only one to get determination you know.

Aom and resists are only a part of the anti stun abilities 'everyone' has. It doesn't cure it. Stun still lets you get in atleast 1 or 2 more nukes. It's not shit


IMO I feel that stuns and Nearsight should not be on classes that have ranged damage potential. It should be on pure supportclasses.


edit: and speed on an enchanter?! where does that seem logic, a pet class that has means of running away by using his pet to take aggro gets a speedspell? Huh..

 

[old.Charonel]

tbh it's harder to use the stun than you'd think, if someone get's into meelee with me then i can't just qc stun and nuke away, because i'll hit the nuke key during their stun and it'll tell me i have 3 seconds to wait because i'm being interupted, then if i'm unlucky, after those 3 second are up it'll then tell me i have an extra 2 seconds (DONT ask why, i have NO idea how the hell that extra two seconds should work, it really shouldnt, but ithappens) to wait, that's 5 seconds, that leaves 3 since you can't cast for 1 second after a quick cast, that's ONE nuke, and that' with the target having zero resists to the stun, with resists by the time i start casting (as i said, if a qc stun while getting meelee'd) the stun will have already worn off.

believe me, this isnt a bug or a one off, it ALLWAYS happens when you qc stun in meelee, everyone has this idea that hib casters with pbae can just qc stun and own, but it doesnt work that way.

althogh i agree with elds and nearsight being overpowered in comparison other realms nearsight capabilities, hibs are the only one's who get nearsight on an actual popular class, we therefore have a lot more of it knocking around.

 

[Vireb]

to stand a chance against a RR1 enchanter a tank needs to be rr?
as for determination spec tank , every tank needs ip thats 23 points gone (R3L3)
level 4 determination thats 1+3+6 +10 , thats 20 points now were looking at rr5L3
and you say avoidence of magic to a good level 3 or 4 thats another 10 - 20 points so were looking at a tank need to be
rr6L3 (avoidence of magic 3)
R7L3 (avoidence of magic 4)
and hell they may even need to get purge so they can get to the chanter from the pet snare
call that rr8l3 then show me an rr8 tank pls , even if you dropped ip from the list thats still rr6 to have a chance of killing a class with no ra's

to kill a rr1 enchanter. pls tell me once again they are not over powerd

 

[Talifer]

When you PB every 2 seconds for upto 800 damage you only need 5 seconds. But to be honest if you are having to do this FROM melee then don't you deserve to die? If a tank has managed to get close enough to you to hit, shouldn't he be at an advantage? That's how I see it, if you stun me from range and nuke me to death, it's still annoying but that's how the game works. If you come charging across the hill side, someone mezzes and the PBer runs in and starts nuking, then fair enough there's some tactics involved there. If however I get the jump on you and manage to Dual Shadow you in the face, so now you are bleeding while I'm still attacking you and you just PB me twice and I'm dead (with your pet nuking me for 100+ damage a round, snaring me to a root, since determination brings it about faster), is that balance? Where's the fun in tactics if at the end of the day the person you are fighting can avoid anything you throw at them.

Talifer

 

[old.Charonel]

Originally posted by Talifer
When you PB every 2 seconds for upto 800 damage you only need 5 seconds. But to be honest if you are having to do this FROM melee then don't you deserve to die? If a tank has managed to get close enough to you to hit, shouldn't he be at an advantage?
Talifer

yes, i wasnt saying i should be able to qc stun and own, i was just saying that a major gripe about hib casters, and chanters especially is from people who think the stun just allows them to kill anything regardless of whether they're in meelee etc... or not, the case however is that in the next patch the stun wont be worth casting on anyone who isnt solo (WITHOUT a buffbot i may add) or higher than rank 2.

if i'm in meelee with a tank and they got there without me knowing etc... i certainly should die, wasnt saying i should be able to kill the tank each time, what i'm saying is that we CAN'T kill the tank each time, just doesnt happen, you can get lucky and it'll work, or you can most of the time just spend the stun duration getting told that you can't cast yet, was merely addressing peoples rather wrong belief that you can just stun and nuke away with three pbae's.

and vireb, please look at the 1.53 patch notes, then do a re estimate of what realm rank an armsman etc... would have to be, because it's a LOT lower than your making out there. purge for example, get's dropped to 4 points etc...

and vireb, dont come back with the correct RR and say that "omg, tanks need this to stop being nuked for 800 damage!? ffs!" beacuse the caster would also need rather a good RR to do that much damage in the first place, and dont forget that power relics also come into play, i dont know if we had both of them when those screenies were made, but we have even now, an extra 10% damage via the one power relic we do have left, that adds to things too.

Ra's are a two way street, a tank may need some to combat those 800 damge nukes, but a caster needs some to MAKE those 800 damge nukes, not to mention that you sacrifice a lot of ranged damage to get that kind of a pbae.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by Vireb

hehe amuzing coming from a soon to be nerfed assasin

Didn't have IP originally nor was going to get it, but when 90%+ of your opponents have it, you kinda have to have it... MoPain3/4 and a possible respec to 50 thrust/50 CS are on the way...

 

[Salazar]

More more... giv more of this stuff

 

[old.Charonel]

look look! they CAN'T be overpowered! salazar's one , and he's widely regarded to be a complete gim...OW!

<runs for the hills>

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by old.Charonel
tbh it's harder to use the stun than you'd think, if someone get's into meelee with me then i can't just qc stun and nuke away, because i'll hit the nuke key during their stun and it'll tell me i have 3 seconds to wait because i'm being interupted, then if i'm unlucky, after those 3 second are up it'll then tell me i have an extra 2 seconds (DONT ask why, i have NO idea how the hell that extra two seconds should work, it really shouldnt, but ithappens) to wait, that's 5 seconds, that leaves 3 since you can't cast for 1 second after a quick cast, that's ONE nuke, and that' with the target having zero resists to the stun, with resists by the time i start casting (as i said, if a qc stun while getting meelee'd) the stun will have already worn off.

believe me, this isnt a bug or a one off, it ALLWAYS happens when you qc stun in meelee, everyone has this idea that hib casters with pbae can just qc stun and own, but it doesnt work that way.

althogh i agree with elds and nearsight being overpowered in comparison other realms nearsight capabilities, hibs are the only one's who get nearsight on an actual popular class, we therefore have a lot more of it knocking around.

I know how the interrupt 'bugs' work, it's the swing cycle from the melee blow that still affects interruptions. If you stun a meleer a short way into his swing, you will have a long lasting interrupt because the interrupt code reads the swing as still enduring, even though you stunned him. It's a 'working as intended' "bug" from Mythic with love.

"tick tick tick tick tick tick" -Sanya

Oh, and the example you present is in melee range, the tank kind of deserves to kill you if he got close to a ranged caster. QC stun works wonders on closing targets. Add a snare nuking pet and it's suddenly hard to get close to the enchanter. Which also has a speedspell(!).

Add MOC and perhaps a QC to the pbaoeing enchanter, and voila. One killer class.

<vanishes into the background of your desktop again>

 

[kirennia]

Originally posted by old.Charonel

dont forget that power relics also come into play, i dont know if we had both of them when those screenies were made, but we have even now, an extra 10% damage via the one power relic we do have left, that adds to things too.

Ra's are a two way street, a tank may need some to combat those 800 damge nukes, but a caster needs some to MAKE those 800 damge nukes, not to mention that you sacrifice a lot of ranged damage to get that kind of a pbae.

0 relics = 0% dmg increase
1 relic = 0% dmg increase
2 relics = 10% dmg increase
3 relics = 20% dmg increase.

you have 1 relic yet are still nuking for almost 800 damage with your pbaoe (got many screenies if only i found out how to show em ) Lets compare this with albions earth wizard pbaoes...wonder who wins in the dmg compartment...case pretty much won from hibs perspective

 

[Trubble]

Charonel, if you are not owning with your chanter, you are not playing your class to its potential.

 

[old.Charonel]

Originally posted by kirennia



0 relics = 0% dmg increase
1 relic = 0% dmg increase
2 relics = 10% dmg increase
3 relics = 20% dmg increase.

you have 1 relic yet are still nuking for almost 800 damage with your pbaoe (got many screenies if only i found out how to show em ) Lets compare this with albions earth wizard pbaoes...wonder who wins in the dmg compartment...case pretty much won from hibs perspective

it's nothing to do with how many relics, it's WHICH relics, we currently have 1 power relic, this relic however, is NOT ours.

owning no relics = 0% increase
owning just your own relic = 0% increase
owning 1 enemy relic = 10% increase
owning 2 enemy relics = 20% increase

you can't TAKE enemy relics unless you have your own relic of that type, ie power/strength

we however, didnt take the enemy one's without our own, we had all three, ours and 1 enemy one was taken however, we currently have 1 enemy relic, ie 10% damage increase, i can show you a shot of my resist screen which shows the 10% increase in spell damage if you like.

and the alb wizzy pbae is just the same as the hib pbae, same damage exactly, it's just that nobody has max ice spec, not our problem if you can't be bothered to spec a full pbae. plenty of people here have max energy resist thesedays so you can't complain too much about that.

simple fact is that all the times i've been hit by ice wizzy pbae it's been for about 70ish damage or a few times for about 150ish, considering level difference thrown in, that's a VERY low spec pbae, get some max spec ice wizzards and you'll soon see how well it works.

 

[old.Charonel]

Originally posted by Trubble
Charonel, if you are not owning with your chanter, you are not playing your class to its potential.

the lvl difference from it being level 15 is hard to compete with

second chanter btw, rerolled a higher one who had WAY too much enchantment spec a while back.

 

[belth]

Originally posted by old.Charonel
and the alb wizzy pbae is just the same as the hib pbae, same damage exactly, it's just that nobody has max ice spec, not our problem if you can't be bothered to spec a full pbae. plenty of people here have max energy resist thesedays so you can't complain too much about that.

simple fact is that all the times i've been hit by ice wizzy pbae it's been for about 70ish damage or a few times for about 150ish, considering level difference thrown in, that's a VERY low spec pbae, get some max spec ice wizzards and you'll soon see how well it works.

No it isn't the same as chanter PBAoE, it's slower cast time and pretty much everything Cold spec offers to a wizard. Whoopie-f00king-doo!

 

[Tranquil-]

Originally posted by old.Charonel

and the alb wizzy pbae is just the same as the hib pbae, same damage exactly, it's just that nobody has max ice spec, not our problem if you can't be bothered to spec a full pbae. plenty of people here have max energy resist thesedays so you can't complain too much about that.

simple fact is that all the times i've been hit by ice wizzy pbae it's been for about 70ish damage or a few times for about 150ish, considering level difference thrown in, that's a VERY low spec pbae, get some max spec ice wizzards and you'll soon see how well it works.

It should not be any ones expected duty to spec your character in a way which is a one trick pony. It's Mythics duty to make specs that appeal to people. If a spec has limited variance in gameplay, you cannot blame people for not speccing that.

Now compare mana spec to ice spec while looking at what the class has in baselines and tell me which class and specs look most attractive.

THAT'S where the imbalance lies. THAT'S where alot of people feel something has to be done. THAT'S what makes enchanter w/mana much more attractive to spec compared to the ice spec wizards have to spec to get a slower version of the enchanter pbaoe and less utility.

All in all, enchanter with pbaoe makes a much, much more attractive character, than a wizard with an ice spec. Perhaps that's what needs fixing, but when you begin to look at what exactly differs from them, and start looking at what utility people actually get from the various abilities the enchanters can get from one single template, you will see that it might be too good for the balance of the game. Certainly bad for the balance of numbers between ice and fire/earth spec among wizards.

That an enchanter with it's abilities as of now is overpowered in player versus player encounters is completely clear to anyone who has seen how the enchanters fare on the pvp server.

They have the means of stopping an attacker from moving close, they can attack at range, they can attack VERY potently at close range(with MOC even better). They have a ranged QC'able baseline stun. And they have a pet which enjoys the luxury of a radar. It can home in on stealthed players to further reveal them at range from the enchanter, which allows him to enjoy the scenery while pushing a button to remove the 'threat', with the aid if the chainnuking-for150+damage-at-lvl50 pet(works for any pet class, but this AND the other abilities are top notch all of them).

All of these abilities are being used all the time, they are handy and work well. Now peek at the ice spec and the baselines of the Wizard and come back. Even the baselines are imbalanced. But that's intended, Hibernia is the magical realm, right.

Tell me the ~1400 guildedplayers with an enchanter on Camlann has been mistaken in what the enchanter can do in pvp encounters. That numbers is only the guilded enchanters. Imagine the numbers of unguilded powerhouses that run around. <sigh>

Balance in abilities also indirectly means balance in attractiveness of the class.

Imbalance means an unfair advantage in pretty much any situation. This is how most people feel the enchanters vs <insert most classes> scenario is today.

About your low damage encounters with ice spec pbaoe. You do understand that you might have been in the edge of the blast radius, which will do less damage than a target situated in the centre of the blast radius.

There are soloing manachanters and mana eldritches walking the frontiers. How many soloing Ice wizards do you see? I can tell you that it's few, if not none. And that is NOT because of their rarity, but because a solo ice wiz has no real means of utility in solo combat compared to the pet users with pbaoe or the high utility class the eldritch is.

They can survive longer solo because of the high utility value they have compared to the ice specced wizard.

And utility = fun, fun = people playing them, and people playing them = high # of that utility class. Add it to a potent damage dealer and even more will play it.

The enchanter has the collection of the best abilities around, and when you know how to use them well, the other classes downsides becomes, oh so apparent..

My personal thoughts is that the only thing that needs a nerfing about the enchanter, is either the runspells and debuffs, or the pet nuke must lose it's snare.

It's obvious. But you can't see the forest because of the trees.

(edit: if you made it all the way here, you deserve a medal.)

 

[kinadold]

Facts of pbaoe among the realms.

Wizard : 325 dd at 3 sec cast.
Enchanter : 325 dd at 2.5 sec cast.
Spiritmaster : 331 dd at 2.5 sec cast.

Seems only fair that wizards have slower casting time, no stun,
no pet, no aemezz, no ae debuff, no speed, no ...

Why is that fair ?

Well he have a dd, so icewizards must own.