Politics 2024/25 General Election Voting Intention (2022)

[Scouse]

Back onto the Labour Party and it's special status aftrr Starmer's Pogrom's @Gwadien:

Poorly led, strategically inept and shorn of democracy. Now I truly fear for this Labour government | John McDonnell

The welfare bill passed, but it was chaos. A party this dysfunctional and divided cannot escape the wrath of voters at the next election, says John McDonnell, former Labour shadow chancellor

www.theguardian.com

Constituency Labour parties are not permitted to even debate some of the most significant political issues of the day, such as Gaza. Views questioning the leadership line, whether expressed in meetings or on social media, lead easily to disciplinary action.

Broad church, ruled democratically, gutted by Starmer and ruled with an iron fist undemocratically.

 

[Scouse]

So, Levenson made recommendations that undermined the freedom of the 4th estate last time he popped his head up.

This time he's recommending the removal of the right to trial by jury.

I mean, we could just properly fund our legal system rather than just ensure poor people (for that's who this'll affect) get summary justice.

 

[Scouse]

It's not "in my backyard" - but I'm still fundamentally opposed to this:

Locations chosen for three Welsh government-backed wind farms

Wales' new renewable energy developer announces where it will build its first wind farm projects.

www.bbc.co.uk

There's *so* much space at sea. It's cheaper to build these things at sea too.

So why fuck up people's homes and amenities shared by all when we can do it all out at sea. If you look out to sea from the already existing windfarm on the Conwy/Denbighshire border you can see miles and miles of offshore wind. Some of the earliest turbines are tiny compared to the new monsters that they put in. If you stand in Liverpool on a day with an onshore wind you can actually hear them at the edge of your hearing. There's also a net benefit to sea life around these wind farms.

So why is Labour specifically adamant about sticking them next to people's houses, on land?

 

[Raven]

That a lot of seabirds getting turned into red mist, instead of just building more nuclear (which should have started over 20 years ago)

 

[Scouse]

That a lot of seabirds getting turned into red mist

Doesn't actually work like that. But even if it did - that's a lot of land-birds getting turned to red mist, and a load of land ruined.

The economics alone make land wind turbines the least cost-effective turbines. So why fuck everything else up when we get all the additional benefits and none of the downsides in the sea?


And as for this:

just building more nuclear (which should have started over 20 years ago)

Well we didn't though did we. New nuclear is going to be too late to the party, so lets stop pushing it - because as a global warming solution it's useless.

 

[Embattle]

Everything everywhere.

 

[ECA]

Doesn't actually work like that. But even if it did - that's a lot of land-birds getting turned to red mist, and a load of land ruined.

The economics alone make land wind turbines the least cost-effective turbines. So why fuck everything else up when we get all the additional benefits and none of the downsides in the sea?


And as for this:


Well we didn't though did we. New nuclear is going to be too late to the party, so lets stop pushing it - because as a global warming solution it's useless.

I know your off the deep end in lala land, but this is all just factually incorrect.
Offshore is somewhere between 50-100% more expensive per kwh produced.

Uk strike prices for onshore wind of £92/mwh vs £161/mwh for offshore wind.
US estimates are actually over double the price for offshore.

It's significantly more expensive to build and maintain offshore wind, the benefit is a higher uptime % of effective production, and of course you don't have to deal with retarded nimbys.

Basically any coastal land that doesnt have a city/town there should be covered in windfarms asap and we figure the rest out later.
And they look nice as well.

Can't even be bothered to comment on your idiotic points on nuclear.

 

[Scouse]

Uk strike prices for onshore wind of £92/mwh vs £161/mwh for offshore wind.

Last round. Before that offshore was cheaper coming in in 2022 at £37/mwh in 2012 prices. The price has gone up not because offshore wind is particularly difficult - it's gone up because the US and China are ramping up offshore wind and soaking up the components.

It's competition from abroad that's making offshore wind more expensive in the last round.

I'd like to understand what the "idiotic" points are on nuclear though. Disregarding the massive expense and all the other shit - we've blown through 1.5 degrees already, and we don't have enough time to build enough nuclear to avoid 2 degrees.

Call me a liar.

Edit: And if we can afford nuclear, we can definitely afford offshore wind.

 

[Embattle]

This is from AR6, the latest round:

AR7 starts next month.

 

[Scouse]

So offshore wind is still not far off equivalent to onshore.

It's a fucking no-brainer. We shouldn't be fucking our landscape, removing amenity and making people miserable when we can get desparately needed environmental gains by sticking these things where nobody lives or plays.

 

[Tom]

I actually think we're doing pretty well in this country, for example simple things like replacing tungsten bulbs with LEDs has massively reduced our energy consumption. But there's some very simple, easy, low-hanging fruit that could, with some minor changes, be made available. For example, Andy Burnham (mayor of GM) doesn't have control of the area's key road network. It's still the case that each of the ten councils in GM has control of its own key roads (like the A56, A57, A62, etc). If the mayor was granted powers to take strategic control of GM's road network, he could implement much more easily a walking/cycling network that connects the whole area. Same with public transport - control of the KRN could see GM have bus lanes along all major routes, making buses much more reliable. And where congestion occurs (always at junctions), such a change would allow the mayor to upgrade junctions so they have bus priority throughout. Right now he can't do that - he can only give them the funding if they ask for it. No ask, no funding = no bus priority.

It's a change that really only requires the stroke of a pen. But it hasn't happened yet, presumably because vested local interests are stubbornly refusing to give up what control they have over an important resource. And I think that remains an issue across much of the country - crusty old councillors in positions of authority at councils. People who are used to doing things their way, who won't move aside (even in their 80s) for younger, more energetic and forward-thinking people to come in.

 

[ECA]

So offshore wind is still not far off equivalent to onshore.

It's a fucking no-brainer. We shouldn't be fucking our landscape, removing amenity and making people miserable when we can get desparately needed environmental gains by sticking these things where nobody lives or plays.

You do realise we live on an island?

 

[Scouse]

You do realise we live on an island?

Er yes. So there's plenty of seabed to stick offshore wind on it? 43% of all European offshore wind capacity is hosted in UK waters.

What's your point?

Spoiler

No houses. No national parks. No walkers. No land animals. No forests to cut down. No ponds to fill in. No land-based birds.

Just loads of lovely benefits for the aquatic flora and fauna and shitloads of cheap cheap clean energy.

or

Spoiler

They're not exactly silent you know:

 

[Embattle]

We should do both, although the next big step is floating.

 

[Scouse]

We should do both

Why?

Why ignore the downsides and the reasonable opposition when we have a cost-neutral alternative? It's like some people want to shit on people and the environment when we don't have to.

 

[Embattle]

Why?

Why ignore the downsides and the reasonable opposition when we have a cost-neutral alternative? It's like some people want to shit on people and the environment when we don't have to.

I'm a supporter of needing everything, something I've repeated a few times. Using the AR6 table onshore is still cheaper than offshore, although not by much. I expect this to widen in AR7 since offshore costs are going to increase due to supply constraints, due to high worldwide demand.

 

[Scouse]

Unfortunately that doesn't even remotely attempt to answer the "why" question.

 

[Gwadien]

I've got one.

Jobs.

 

[Scouse]

I've got one.

Jobs.

Better paying jobs offshore, and if we need more turbines, then we need more jobs. It's just where those jobs are - and there's a lot of coastal towns with no fucking jobs.

I'd also argue that we could source a lot of our raw materials in the UK, but people don't like mines right next to their houses. But jobs eh?

 

[Gwadien]

Better paying jobs offshore, and if we need more turbines, then we need more jobs. It's just where those jobs are - and there's a lot of coastal towns with no fucking jobs.

I'd also argue that we could source a lot of our raw materials in the UK, but people don't like mines right next to their houses. But jobs eh?

Don't we get the Danes to do our offshore stuff? Using Danish food on danish ships etc?

I've not looked into it, but I'd imagine the areas that they're using are former mining areas - ie not areas of outstanding beauty etc, have big ugly scars everywhere?

Also, people don't like to mine next to their house? In Wales?

I dunno, I think I'd rather listen to what your average Welsh person has to say about this rather than a parachuted in bloke who's bought a rural house with his big bucks working for banks? Or for that matter 'Welsh' environmental groups full of middle class English people with double barrel surnames..

 

[Embattle]

There are plenty of places and opportunities for onshore, and there is no lack of demand for renewables. As an example, I've passed these 3 turbines in 3 different fields multiple times:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

and a street view:

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

maps.app.goo.gl

 

[Scouse]

I've not looked into it, but I'd imagine the areas that they're using are former mining areas - ie not areas of outstanding beauty etc, have big ugly scars everywhere?

I have looked into it and the spots they're choosing are AONBs and wild areas.

For one - they're going to trash this place - Clocaenog Forest, which is a place with walking tails, a visitor centre, lake - it's really a beautiful place.

I dunno, I think I'd rather listen to what your average Welsh person has to say about this rather than a parachuted in bloke who's bought a rural house with his big bucks working for banks? Or for that matter 'Welsh' environmental groups full of middle class English people with double barrel surnames..

You really need to get your working-class hero stick out of your ass. If you want to earn more money give up your teaching job and go do something else. You're impossible to talk to without everything being focussed through a jealousy-induced class-war lens.

 

[Deebs]

class-war lens.

Might have to steal this and sell it to Marvel for the next Avenger film

 

[Raven]

Don't we get the Danes to do our offshore stuff? Using Danish food on danish ships etc?

I've not looked into it, but I'd imagine the areas that they're using are former mining areas - ie not areas of outstanding beauty etc, have big ugly scars everywhere?

Also, people don't like to mine next to their house? In Wales?

I dunno, I think I'd rather listen to what your average Welsh person has to say about this rather than a parachuted in bloke who's bought a rural house with his big bucks working for banks? Or for that matter 'Welsh' environmental groups full of middle class English people with double barrel surnames..

The Danish, installing stuff made in China. Yes.

We are being taken for fools.

 

[Scouse]

The Danish, installing stuff made in China. Yes.

We are being taken for fools.

Or the chinese are being taken for slaves and we hoover that up in everything we buy from them.

They're getting rid of thousands round here in the UK again. Hiring in china - hard. That's because their minimum hours are 9-9-6. 9am-9pm, 6 days a week. Lets be honest, it's 7 days a week really isn't it.

It should be a legal requirement on corporations that if they sell products in a country then the staff they use to deliver that products have to have the same working conditions globally of the best country they sell to.

 

[Deebs]

Or the chinese are being taken for slaves and we hoover that up in everything we buy from them.

They're getting rid of thousands round here in the UK again. Hiring in china - hard. That's because their minimum hours are 9-9-6. 9am-9pm, 6 days a week. Lets be honest, it's 7 days a week really isn't it.

It should be a legal requirement on corporations that if they sell products in a country then the staff they use to deliver that products have to have the same working conditions globally of the best country they sell to.

Whilst you are smoking your pipe perhaps we can also say if countries go to war we will sanction them, oh yeh that works well.

 

[Scouse]

Whilst you are smoking your pipe perhaps we can also say if countries go to war we will sanction them, oh yeh that works well.

@Gwadien made a point about jobs - and I said that UK jobs are being lost to China because we're happy to buy shit from China that's cheap because we use them like slave labour.

I don't think that's right. And it's not just manufacturing. We're laying people off in western economies and hiring chinese people - because they work the chinese like slaves. 12 hour days, 6 days a week (and the rest).

If our big corporates want to sell products to us - I don't think it's unreasonable for us to say 40 hour weeks, maximum, or you can't sell your shit in our countries.

We banned actual direct slavery in the west. We could (and should) use our superior buying power to bring standards up in the rest of the world.

Or is cheap shit all that matters to us?


(As for sanctions - I told you they were useless at the time. Trump is on about more of them in 50 days time - so what did they actually fucking do?)

 

[Deebs]

@Gwadien made a point about jobs - and I said that UK jobs are being lost to China because we're happy to buy shit from China that's cheap because we use them like slave labour.

I don't think that's right. And it's not just manufacturing. We're laying people off in western economies and hiring chinese people - because they work the chinese like slaves. 12 hour days, 6 days a week (and the rest).

If our big corporates want to sell products to us - I don't think it's unreasonable for us to say 40 hour weeks, maximum, or you can't sell your shit in our countries.

We banned actual direct slavery in the west. We could (and should) use our superior buying power to bring standards up in the rest of the world.

Or is cheap shit all that matters to us?


(As for sanctions - I told you they were useless at the time. Trump is on about more of them in 50 days time - so what did they actually fucking do?)

The problem is you cannot just pick China out of the naughty pot, what about all the other countries that use the same "model"? The West cannot afford to build new factories, train workers and hope that the population has the funds to buy the much more expensive goods.

If someone can buy the same TV but made in China for 50% of the price of the same model made in TheWest guess what they will buy.

 

[Gwadien]

Voting age to be lowered to 16 by next general election

Other planned changes include expanding voter ID to include bank cards and moving to automatic registration.

www.bbc.co.uk

I feel like this is going to backfire massively.

 

[Scouse]

The problem is you cannot just pick China out of the naughty pot, what about all the other countries that use the same "model"? The West cannot afford to build new factories, train workers and hope that the population has the funds to buy the much more expensive goods.

If someone can buy the same TV but made in China for 50% of the price of the same model made in TheWest guess what they will buy.

I picked China because it's the obvious one. But pick a country.

I know people will choose the cheapest thing, rather than ethically buy - which is why we should regulate. That's the whole point of governments.