1.90b theurgist nerf

Thadius

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spirit is just as gimped a resist as matter in my experience, and the spec dd will hit a lot harder.

this is a pve nerf, not an rvr one if you ask me (yes i consider keeptaking pve)

But they made pve easier in the patches before
 

Thadius

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Which spec will hit harder? The Spirit or Matter?

Probably hit for the same as both resists are pretty gimped.

Though the earthspec will be more popular as its easier to leech rps in things like zergs and keepsieges
 

Ctuchik

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mostly pve tbh :| i agree you will do fine with 16 in rvr but :<

the nuke shit is najs tho.


well, those nukes could be the reason for the reduced pet cap.

those earth pets can do a fair bit of damage when stacked on a target, and the nukes on top of that would be quite a pain (even more then as it is now) for any healer that wanna keep the theurgs target alive. ice and air already have spec nukes (unsure about AE's tho) but those pets in themself don't do enough damage from my experience without help from the spec nukes.

i just hope they don't go TO far, in either direction.
 

Ctuchik

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Probably hit for the same as both resists are pretty gimped.

Though the earthspec will be more popular as its easier to leech rps in things like zergs and keepsieges

depends if ur fighting mids or hibs tbh :)

probably a tad easier to farm mids in a keepsiege then hibs with all those fucking baseline stunning caster pricks :).

atleast i find albs easier then hibs in a siege, not so many stuns + debuff nuking flying around.
 

Esselinithia

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Animists: They were good before, but they aren't that fotm anymore.

Septima: Feel free to add SI to it.
Any other non instanced raid content. (be it catacombs, NF, etc. related)
in RvR you can point to sieges (pet spam on doors)
In solo leveling you often place pets on many monsters
In xp group you won't be used for AOE yet some of your valuable tools became weaker.

What you gain? Leech in zerg on rvr servers ability if you prefer solo leeching. To me, that doesn't look like important :)
 

Esselinithia

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And animists are needed for what?

But they made pve easier in the patches before

No, they made TOA easier recently.

They made dragons harder.
They haven't touched SI dungeons
They haven't made laby encounters easier
They haven't made any gaheris specific encounters easier

You can make a LONG list about what isn't easier now.
 

Cromcruaich

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Not a lot to cry about. PvP wise animists have had the 15 shroom cap for years. The last animist nerf was much worse - a total cap for the area for all animists (cant remember the number - was it 15 or so?). I read it that there will be no such area limit.

Energy spec line dd on mentas, time for some people to retemplate? Mind you, active ments can be counted on erm, 1 finger (never mind one hand) nowadays.
 

Septima

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Most of the SI content can be done with a summoning class, in alb you even have acess to 2 of them(necro caba)! Most of the laby pve can be done with a necro or again a ml9 summoning class. The other pve can be easly done with semi opted fg's.
About the dragons, in mid even with thanes and valks, you still need around 15-20 characters to kill a dragon, why should albs be diferent?
Pet spam is not needed anymore, so i stick to my position, it's love not nerf.

And plz, albs QQing about PVE is such BS, i thought hib was easymode pve..until i rolled a caba and a necro...
 

Azathrim

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Notice that the earth spec dd is 179 value as a baseline, ... not 209/219 as a spec line usually is. Bug or intended?

Also notice how they made the healer RR5 possible worse than it already was. Geez what a joke. It's not like the assist train will stop nuking/hitting the healer just because he suddenly gets a (possible) small heal.

Give healers the cleric RR5 and we'll call it a day. ;)
 

Esselinithia

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Septima:
Currently you would need more than 15 people to kill the dragons (big ones)
Currently you would need more than 1-2 fg to get anywhere near to Apoc
Currently a semi opted fg wouldn't have easy time with legion, worm.
Corrently a semi opted fg wouldn't have much chance to do the gaheris specific encounters around relic temples.

Ohh, and on Gaheris (where PVE nerf is more important than any PVP change) mids complain about this nerf as much as albs and hibs. And they say it is a big nerf.
 

Cadelin

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Notice that the earth spec dd is 179 value as a baseline, ... not 209/219 as a spec line usually is. Bug or intended?

Also notice how they made the healer RR5 possible worse than it already was. Geez what a joke. It's not like the assist train will stop nuking/hitting the healer just because he suddenly gets a (possible) small heal.

Give healers the cleric RR5 and we'll call it a day. ;)

I am sure the value is intended, giving theurgs a 209/219 spec matter nuke as well as an ae nuke and the ability to spam pets..

The healer RR5 change is odd. It all depends on the value of the heal. The self res was pretty useless in open field rvr but it did have its useful moments in PvE and tower/keep situations. The heal needs to be for a decent value and the buff needs to be activated for a decent amount of time otherwise it will be no different from having the champ 5% resist thing. Having said that the Druid rr5 isn't that great, you can't take damage but you are stunned and it resets your stun immunity.
 

Esselinithia

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Pets and spells with high delve can coexist on same character, should I name a few such classes?
 

Cadelin

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Pets and spells with high delve can coexist on same character, should I name a few such classes?

Go for it. Remember it has to be pets and you can't count brittle guards.

The only one I can think of is the animist and we all remember how that class got the number of pets it can spam reduced to 5 fnf and they can be mezzed. The BD doesn't have a high delve nuke.
 

Esselinithia

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Single pets can be just as hard as several fire and forget pets, should we look at SM with highest delve PBAOE, ML9 pet, etc? :)

Earth theurg pets are strong, but they hit only one terget, and you can't control them. They won't "tank" much for you, they won't work with focus shields, all they do is a moderate amount of damage over time. Yes, they are stronger than normal dots, because they do stack. But with the recent dot changes this difference is minor.

Animist pets attacked MULTIPLE targets so they were far stronger, also animist have a main pet, stronger nukes.

Normal pet classes have smaller amount of pet, but they do almost same damage and provide better utility :)

Also: if your spec spell isn't better than the existing baseline spell it is pointless :)

You can't say it makes a class stronger, when it is the same as existing baseline stuff :)
 

Genedril

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Animist pets attacked MULTIPLE targets so they were far stronger, also animist have a main pet, stronger nukes.

I'm sure you mean that they attack one target until it's dead & then switch? I'm pretty sure that the fnf's don't attack everyone in the area all the time. Unless you're talking about the pb from the main pet in the verdant line?

Normal pet classes have smaller amount of pet, but they do almost same damage and provide better utility

Like the utility laden enchanter??

Also: if your spec spell isn't better than the existing baseline spell it is pointless

That would depend on such imponderables such as cast time, power usage, resists that the competeing nukes would be likely to face etc. For example:

If both delve for 179 but one takes 2.8 & the other 2.6 to cast then which would you use? (randoms numbers btw ;) ).

If both delve for 179 but one costs 38power & the other 28 power to cast then which would you use? (randoms numbers ftw in example stylee ;) ).

If both delve for 179 but one is cold (often capped) & the other energy (frequently not) then which would you use? (randoms facts instead as I needed a change ;) ).
 

Cadelin

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Single pets can be just as hard as several fire and forget pets, should we look at SM with highest delve PBAOE, ML9 pet, etc? :)

Thats a stupid comparison. You can't argue that one class should get a bigger ranged spec nuke because PBAOE is higher delve. The SM pet can only ever interupt one person at a time.

Earth theurg pets are strong, but they hit only one terget, and you can't control them. They won't "tank" much for you, they won't work with focus shields, all they do is a moderate amount of damage over time. Yes, they are stronger than normal dots, because they do stack. But with the recent dot changes this difference is minor.

Earth pets are the longest lasting theurg pets. They attack only one target but you can cast more than one of them. There job is to interupt someone for the longest amount of time. Damage is not that important.

Animist pets attacked MULTIPLE targets so they were far stronger, also animist have a main pet, stronger nukes.

No they aren't, animist pets can't move and they can be mezzed.

Normal pet classes have smaller amount of pet, but they do almost same damage and provide better utility :)

You don't rely on pets to do damage, they are there to interupt the enemy. The theurg can get snaring and stunning pets if he wants as well the melee pets, that more varied than most pet classes can get.


Also: if your spec spell isn't better than the existing baseline spell it is pointless :)

You can't say it makes a class stronger, when it is the same as existing baseline stuff :)

This is also wrong. A baseline spell will be rubbish if you don't put any spec points in that line. Previously if you specced high in earth you would have to rely on a baseline nuke in a different spec line, now it is in the same spec line so your damage will be greatly improved. It is also a different damage type. The specline also has the ranged ae nuke.
 

Ctuchik

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Also: if your spec spell isn't better than the existing baseline spell it is pointless :)

no its not, it would minimize, or even remove any variance in damage without having to go gimp spec for better baseline DD's in ice.



but i still cant see what the fuzz is about, as with every other patch Mythic makes they will change stuff as it comes. and even that earth spec DD could get a boost if it turns out to be total pants.

it might take a few years but sooner or later :)
 

Ctuchik

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Earth pets are the longest lasting theurg pets. They attack only one target but you can cast more than one of them. There job is to interupt someone for the longest amount of time. Damage is not that important.
were not ONLY having these effects at lvl 50 endgame you know.
 

Azathrim

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Ohh, and on Gaheris (where PVE nerf is more important than any PVP change) mids complain about this nerf as much as albs and hibs. And they say it is a big nerf.

Realm affiliation doesn't matter on Gaheris since you can play all three realms at once. Thus ofcourse people with mid toons will complain as much as people with alb toons, as they both will feel the nerf of less powerful Theurgists.


If the Animist pet limit is 5, then so should it be for Theurgists.

Afterall, the Theurgist have the more powerful pet as they can focus them on a single mob, instead of having the to-hit bonus spread on several sub-pets as the Animist are forced to with their FnF shrooms.
 

Esselinithia

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The ONLY time when interrupt is the job for theurgist pets is roaming RVR.

Sieges: Damage against doors
PVE: Damage against monsters, and bonus number of attackers (making monsters weaker)

To me: most earth theurgists doesn't look strong for roaming rvr. So most of them are made with other purposes in mind. And if we take these purposes in mind, we see the demage as important factor. This is why the argument about interrupts isn't true.

Before nerf animist pets done damage, they weren't interrupt either.

While chanter are often called a pure damage class (focus shield, ML9, etc makes it strong in PVE scenarios) some of the pets can also heal, etc. in some scenarios. You can see "buff", etc. as well :)
 

Lamp

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So what do I do with my 50 Earth Thurg ? Keep ?
 

Manisch Depressiv

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No expert on the CL lines but I though casters couldnt get CL nukes.

Albion Mages can spec CL Elementalist line with AoE/PBAoE. Wizard has low level PBAoE for the pets anyway and the Theurg could use the CL Mage AoE DoT?

Or can't Zo'arkat pets be dotted?
 

joap

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Septima:
Currently you would need more than 15 people to kill the dragons (big ones)
Currently you would need more than 1-2 fg to get anywhere near to Apoc
Currently a semi opted fg wouldn't have easy time with legion, worm.
Corrently a semi opted fg wouldn't have much chance to do the gaheris specific encounters around relic temples.

Ohh, and on Gaheris (where PVE nerf is more important than any PVP change) mids complain about this nerf as much as albs and hibs. And they say it is a big nerf.

Never been to Apoc, but on mid me and few mates went all the way to the King Tuscar (didn't do anything to him though) with 2 summ sms, 1 healer and 1 shammy. We managed to kill almost all the named mobs including guthlac that is inside the kings chamber.


This was done prior to the valk hots were introduced in the game and i suspect with hot all could be done with a single summ sm, a valk (for hot pusposes only, no need for CoTS) and a shammy. In fact i recall seeing a notice on /social shortly after valks got hot about 3-4 people killing king tuscar...

So in mid the SI content is not a problem as long as people know who to approach TG and keep a cool head when things take a nasty turn. :)
 

Esselinithia

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Realm affiliation doesn't matter on Gaheris since you can play all three realms at once. Thus ofcourse people with mid toons will complain as much as people with alb toons, as they both will feel the nerf of less powerful Theurgists.

That is why they complain about nerf, yes :) And yes, they complained about shroom nerf too :)

But shrooms are still stronger in many cases, so theurg pets should come in higher numbers. Also differencens in other spells, a main pet, etc... makes them very very different.
 

BloodOmen

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Septima:
Currently you would need more than 15 people to kill the dragons (big ones)
Currently you would need more than 1-2 fg to get anywhere near to Apoc
Currently a semi opted fg wouldn't have easy time with legion, worm.
Corrently a semi opted fg wouldn't have much chance to do the gaheris specific encounters around relic temples.





Wrong, dragons can be put to sleep with 8 people if you know what your doing. (and yes i am talking about the updated ones that call the 2 dragons in to help) <--- easy.

Wrong, we practically got to apocalypse with a random pug of 11 people (3 bots included so technically 8)

Correct, legion still spawns many adds :p that coupled with the repops its still extremely hard for a fg (although could prob survive it with a few good valks).

Wrong, 2 of the relic temples can be done with a strong fg (no spam).
 

Esselinithia

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Haven't tried the new dragons yet, but many people on VN says it is too hard even with 40. good to hear they are doable with good tactics.

Apoc: The problem is in apoc room

Legion: agreed

Relic temple: Strong fg and semi opted fg is different here :)
 

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