disgrace

one of the blokes at work is a native kiwi, a mowry (sp).... and he just had his british citizenship ceremony yesterday..... now... i take the piss out of him enough about being a foreigner and how he shouldnt have been let into the country in the first place, but what he told me seriously shocked me...

apparently he was in this ceremony with 6 other people.... one of these people was of pakistani origin, the kiwi described him as looking like bin ladens brother.. big white beard, wearing full white muslim robes and all that. now what REALLY got me, was that this muslim had a TRANSLATOR with him! he couldnt speak a single word of english, and he'd been in the country for 15 years! and we're officially making this 'thing' a BRITISH citizen!!!!! now sorry, call me racist if you want, but thats just plain wrong in every way. to become a citizen of a country and not even know a word of they're language, it just makes no sense.

now theres living proof that our entry policy is far too lax

mod sets mode +b

Maori

As for the other point, i'm split over this, but i do believe that in living in a country one should learn the language of the nation. Although the british are one of the worst for this because a lot of them who live abroad for years just get together with other british ex-pats and don't learn the local language...

yaruar said:

Maori

As for the other point, i'm split over this, but i do believe that in living in a country one should learn the language of the nation. Although the british are one of the worst for this because a lot of them who live abroad for years just get together with other british ex-pats and don't learn the local language...

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Which, I think, is what a lot of immigrants do, there are some streets near* where I live and 98% of people speak the same language but not english.
If that makes no sense, what i'm trying to say is that many come to england and then join their "native" community in england hence almost negating the need for learning english.

*In the same city as me

Tilda

Yep think the US has it right (assuming they still do it) where you have a test on US history etc. You definately shouldn't be allowed to have a translator, especially as you can bet your arse he would have probably been paid for by the state.

I work at Social Services and it does get me how we are obliged to translate documents and questionnaires into any language on demand. I have lived abroad periodically for a number of years and in these countries they would have wet themselves laughing and thought you a complete nutjob if you expected them to provide a translator for you. If you weren't able to converse in the native language you had to supply someone to translate, which made damn sure that you made an effort to pick up the lingo.

Don't think its a question of racism at all m8, if you plan on living in a country you should adapt to the language and culture of the country, if you can't or won't do this you shouldn't move there and that goes for a Brit moving to Spain as well.

Cba to type a long whine, but I agree with karam.

Tilda said:

Which, I think, is what a lot of immigrants do, there are some streets near* where I live and 98% of people speak the same language but not english.
If that makes no sense, what i'm trying to say is that many come to england and then join their "native" community in england hence almost negating the need for learning english.

*In the same city as me

Tilda

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if they're gonna go live in they're little social groups, and tlak they're own language, fair enough (even tho this does cause ALOT of trouble, my dad works in bradford... the number of random fights and riots he's seen just because of the clash of societies is unbeleivable.... and in fairness, the britts were there first). but anyway, even if you are gonna live in one of these 'groups', its still taking the piss that you cant speak a word of english.... its just rude and anti-social, it suggests that you have no interest in intergrating into the society you now belong to, and just want to keep yourself to yourself in your own social group, which causes trouble.

Tilda said:

Which, I think, is what a lot of immigrants do, there are some streets near* where I live and 98% of people speak the same language but not english.
If that makes no sense, what i'm trying to say is that many come to england and then join their "native" community in england hence almost negating the need for learning english.

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You hit the nail right on the head. Think about Chinatown, Little Italy and so on, the communities are so large that it's like they have their own little country as a part of a major city.

Then again, I'd do my best to learn the native language no matter where I would live, and 15 years sure is a long time to learn something and English is just so easy to learn

Karam also has a valid point, I too think it's quite anti social and rude not showing any interest what so ever to be a part of the new country one lives in, this world grows smaller every day and people should learn to adapt and blend in. Not saying anyone should change their traditional ways of living and habbits or anything, but show some common sense and respect for your "neighbours" (in this case, the original people that inhabit the country)

Wow, that didn't make much sense

I definately think that ALL immigrants should have a basic knowledge of the language before they are granted citizenship, aside from being polite it is also a matter of safety for them, say the family goes out and leaves the grandma babysitting and the house catches light and she has to get hold of the fire brigade but cant because 999 isnt translated (tbh why should it be).

or if someones been attacked and the police pick them up thinking they are just on drugs and fallen over, i know they get translators in the station but its better for them to be told at the scene.

I have no problem with places where ethnic groups all band together (brits do that when they move abroad) and think places like china town etc are excellant and i dont think folk should be made to deny their culture but they can adapt and learn our language with out compromising their own heritage/customs.

As for the dude getting citizenship with a translator that just takes the piss, its the government afraid to ban such practices for fear of being called racist when in actual fact its just practical, commen sence and in the immigrants best intrest, i rue the day political correctness infiltrated our system if a brit says something about our immigrant policy and how it could be improved they are branded a bnp facist but let old abu hamzer (sp?) stand in the park and shout about bringing down our culture, then he buggers off back to his council house lol, its all gone pear shaped!!!!!!

One of the problems with immigration is that the first generation of immigrants tends to be older and more set in their ways, wanting to keep traditions and community alive. Also the older you are the harder it is to learn new languages. Most (if not all) second generation immigrants ar bi-cultural and bi-lingual.

In terms of immigration i think special dispensation should be given to commonwealth countries though as we did steal their wealth, exploited their resources, both natural and human and impose western consumerist values upon them so we still owe them a debt for that.

But tbh there alot of British people that go live in other foreign countries and don't bother to learn the lingo.

I agree that they should have a basic knowledge of the place they/we live in etc and make an effort to learn some basics of the language, but we do it aswell >.<

If i were running immigration stuff, I'd test people before they were allowed in unless they were claming assylum, and even then i'd test them if they wanted to stay for any length of time.
I would set up courses that people who wanted a british passport could attend for free and it would teach and then test them on:

English Language
English History
And probably some sort of English culture

I kinda agree that they should make some attempt to integrate into british society, as I think the seperate communities we have in some places atm are just asking for problems. However I think its hypocritical for us to enforce this when Brits moving abroad do the same thing and just sit in their Brit communities speaking english etc.

Tilda

i think its bollocks to test on history.

culture and language i would agree on. they are worth knowing. they need to know our culture so they can accept the way we live etc . they need to know language to communicate.

they need to know history because?!

yaruar said:

In terms of immigration i think special dispensation should be given to commonwealth countries though as we did steal their wealth, exploited their resources, both natural and human and impose western consumerist values upon them so we still owe them a debt for that.

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Don't think we do tbh.

Firstly,they were doing all this to each other long before we got anywhere near them. Don't personally see why its alright for person A to butcher slaughter and oppress person B, but when person C comes along and does it its wrong because he happens to be of a different colour.

Linked with the above it wasn't their wealth or resources. It was our wealth and resources as we had conquered them. While this might raise a few hackles I would point out that when we went into a country, for example what is now Zimbabwe, the tribe on a particular piece of land had not held it forever, they had taken it from the tribe who was there before. Is that land theirs? If it is then when we went in there and took it it was just as ours as it was theirs. If it wasn't theirs then we were taking it from someone who wasn't the rightful owner themselves. As for the culture part, same as above thats what conquerors do, western imperialism no worse than the imperialism operating globally throughout history. Personally I can't say that I feel that the Romans ever owed a debt for exploiting their empire or any other powers for conquests they have made in the past.

Could mention slavery, but then again went on before the British/Dutch etc empires and the British empire was instrumental in stamping out slavery.

I don't personally believe that the state many of these former colonies are in today is due to imperialism itself, as much as what now goes on went on before we even got there (as waffled about above). Most of the problems are due to the lamearsed way in which we pulled out of them after WW2, many of the countries we left reverted to the more unpleasant aspects of their past, which had been supressed under imperialist rule, such as corruption and tribal and religious conflict. The countries where the withdrawl was more orderly and planned tend to have done very well.

If we allow immigration from former colonies there is the problem that it will tend to bleed those developing countries of their best and brightest (if not their best and brightest, no thanks don't want em), who would have helped to develop the infrastructure and general prosperity. If a debt is owed to former colonies then I believe the best way is through trade and investment with them.

tris- said:

i think its bollocks to test on history.

culture and language i would agree on. they are worth knowing. they need to know our culture so they can accept the way we live etc . they need to know language to communicate.

they need to know history because?!

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Language is a definate one i think

Would suggest basic law rather than culture, would prefer culture, but tbh they would water it down so much would just be a joke, cos otherwise would explode the mutlicultural society bit.

Tsabo said:

But tbh there alot of British people that go live in other foreign countries and don't bother to learn the lingo.

I agree that they should have a basic knowledge of the place they/we live in etc and make an effort to learn some basics of the language, but we do it aswell >.<

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the post i made i wasnt just referring to immigrants living in the uk (i just use it as an example cos this is where i am) it should be the same no matter who you are and where you live.

if i moved abroad i'd make sure i knew some of the language as its just plain rude to expect people to speak your language when your in their country, what i hate is the "im in your country, dont understand you so i'll just talk louder and louder in the hope that some how the words will trasnmogrify in to your language once they are yelled at a certain volume" (not sure if this is just the brits or if everyone does it).

Tilda said:

English Language
English History
And probably some sort of English culture

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If current british citizens had the same tests to pass recent studies show we would have to throw 75 percent of them out

Ezteq said:

if i moved abroad i'd make sure i knew some of the language as its just plain rude to expect people to speak your language when your in their country

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No, it's just plain british

Britain as a whole I think is a lazy country wen it comes to learning other peoples language, but i agree with i, i think everone else should speak english, why shud i bother learning their language

Tsabo said:

No, it's just plain british

Britain as a whole I think is a lazy country wen it comes to learning other peoples language, but i agree with i, i think everone else should speak english, why shud i bother learning their language

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tbh i was quite ashamed when i started playing daoc most of the folks i met were foreign to me and spoke excellent english, i have made a lot of friends from game most of them greek so i did get me finger out and learn some of that, but yes we are generally lazy about learning other languages. usually you can spot a brit abroad as the one stood at the bar yelling "oi stavros, MORE BEER si vooo plate"

Tsabo said:

No, it's just plain british

Britain as a whole I think is a lazy country wen it comes to learning other peoples language, but i agree with i, i think everone else should speak english, why shud i bother learning their language

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If people live in a country they should bother learning that language...
but i cant see a reason why you should learn a language only a few people speak...

I know what karams going through, prob moreso on this issue. My grandparents on both sides are from other countries, settled in england and raised families. I'm Polish/Irish and proud of my family histories, but im English, and proud of that too. The Immigration system and regulation does need to be over hauled, thats no secret or suprise. My family's both have mixed feelings about the immigration system, past and present, and i agree that something needs to be done.

Every few years, the housing estate my grandparents live on is investigated and raided, always with success. Just a few months ago, there was a raid 3 doors down from there house, and seven illegals were hauled away, no-one in the house could speak a word of english and it took days to sort out who was from where. Last year they raided a whole street, and found 20 illegals, all claiming to be the cousin of some local preacher. Turns out, the "preacher" wasn't home, or indeed in this country. Be bogged off six months prior to parts, unknown.

Most come from poor countries, rife with war, with water and food shortages and blah blah blah. I do feel for people in bad situations, but the problem will not go away by moving. Britain is on it's last legs, and thats what we should be selling to the world, because it's true. This country is going to hell in a handcart*, and it's not going to get better by allowing millions of people to enter it willy nilly. One of my cousins almost allowed a bloody murderer and coke dealer to marry her so he could get his citizenship. Her dad, who was none too pleased, held him against a brick wall, pasted the shit out of him and told him he would be buried in Britain, several places in fact if he didnt leave very soon. He tried it with another girl, but was caught by police and deported, only to be back a few months later.

Personally, i'd have shot the bastard in the balls, and stopped him breeding. We have enough scum in this country without importing more.

Yet immiration has done so much for a lot of hard working people who just wanted the chance to prove themselves. My grandfather was a carpenter (and at 80, thankfully retired) who spent over thirty five years building houses, furniture, and toys as well as training others in the craft. He was a hard worker till he retired, aged 70.

My other grandfather is a bit of a legend in the area, he was one of oldhams earliest traffic wardens and a nusance to everyone who crossed his path, even his own boss! His greatest include, 3 off duty police officers (one of them the local cheif), over 20 council members (inc. 3 mayors), Manchester arts commisioner, the Minister for transport (left his Jag in a disabled parking spot) and one Ian Dobson, first person to be aquited of assaulting a police officer in oldham. The newspaper clippings are now with him back in ireland, but are always fun to read, especially as most older traffic wardens were trained by him.

My aunt is an artist and reeds horses at a stable's, my uncles are mechanics, bus drivers, electricians, builders, my dads an engineer and amature programmer, me and my brother are technicians. Got a few cousins (most are quite young) who are showing promise. All in all, immigration was good to us. Yet the nagging feeling that the system is also allowing those who will abuse the generosity of this country always creeps in my mind. There's barely a white face from about fifty yards from my house, and it's like that in an area known as little pakistan, slap bang were my grandparents live on the edge of. And why? Becasue they wont move anywere else, and theres more moving in every year, but too where? There hasn't been new houses built since the early ninties. The truth is, there can be 3 or more families living in any one house and in an apartment block, they knocked through walls (supporting walls i might add) so they had more floorspace for beds. It's been going on for years, and will continue until theres nothing else to do but expand into the surrounding areas. They dont need to speak english, theres a little slice of ther ehomeland right there for them. That isnt progress, it's no improvement, it's exploitation of there own people and cultures. Whoever is arranging all this is getting a cut of government money through DSS payments and wages ill bet. Anyway, rant over with, goodnight!

Funny, but Canada which has to be just about the most immagrated country on the planet, has very strict rules, you have to pass tests in English or French, have good knowledge of local government, hows the bins work and everything, they'll quiz you on officials and Canadian law.

You know who will take over the UK?

The people who have the most kids, 'standard' white Britons will fade away, becuase we are more self centered and have less kids, in my office every guy is having kids, at the most 2, in his forties.
Your average Pakistani family will have 20 grandchildren in that same time scale.....................work it out

Karam_Gruul said:

if they're gonna go live in they're little social groups, and tlak they're own language, fair enough (even tho this does cause ALOT of trouble, my dad works in bradford... the number of random fights and riots he's seen just because of the clash of societies is unbeleivable.... and in fairness, the britts were there first). but anyway, even if you are gonna live in one of these 'groups', its still taking the piss that you cant speak a word of english.... its just rude and anti-social, it suggests that you have no interest in intergrating into the society you now belong to, and just want to keep yourself to yourself in your own social group, which causes trouble.

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dont get me started on fecking Bradford...or people who get citzenship in this country without speaking a damn word of English and dont do anything about learning the language or culture

just takes the piss !

yaruar said:

If current british citizens had the same tests to pass recent studies show we would have to throw 75 percent of them out

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not a bad idea think of all the jobs it would create !

and on another note :-

what takes the piss more is... a friend of mine lives in Braford (poor sod) and got a leaflet through his door inviting him to a Community meeting saying "ALL Welcome"...about poor conditions in the area..and how to improve them & services etc

Thing was, the meeting was to be held at the local Mosque..chaired by the local regilious leader and spoken in Hurdu (sp?)...and my mate is WHITE !!

it was quite obvious they didnt want white people there, coz where it was held etc...my mate reckons they had to put "ALL Welcome" on the leaflet to avoid appearing racist....but to me its quite clear they was

now if it had been the other way round we would of been called racist ..and that fecking annoys me !

Bit like the bloke in Bradford when Euro2004 was on...he had the Union Jack up on a flag pole outside his house...and was told to take it down by the local council (which happen to be 90% Asian) as it was seen as racist...just because he lived in an Asian majority area !!

sorry remind me again...whos country is this?

yaruar said:

If current british citizens had the same tests to pass recent studies show we would have to throw 75 percent of them out

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That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing <cough>

union jack racist?! first off the people of the Uk arnt one particular race. secondly, well its a stupid reason!!

i think they should learn the difference between the UK and England. even then if it was st george flag - he isnt even english anyway! so how would that be racist still?

Tilda said:

English Language
English History
And probably some sort of English culture


Tilda

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they do this in Finland , I know cuz i went through it.
now it was great, i even went on a course to teach me finnish =)
i wouls still be lving ther if it wasnt' for me Ex, but thats a different story.
In Ireland it's getting much the same, certian area's in Dublin are like walking into another country completly.
And yes it does annoy me when peeps have been living here a few years and have made no attempt whatsoever to learn any english, or even to lean abit about the country they now Live and reside in

on the union jack thing , wasn't there a kid suspened for wearnig Union jack sorts to sports day or something ?

was on the telly , thats why i heard about it.
Seems that 40% of the school's student are from other countries
and wearing it was now classed as being a bigot.

Imo it's more Pride , We dont' have this prob when peeps wear t-shirs saying Kiss me i'm irish or anythign liek that.
or even a Irish Jersey

Tsabo said:

No, it's just plain british

Britain as a whole I think is a lazy country wen it comes to learning other peoples language, but i agree with i, i think everone else should speak english, why shud i bother learning their language

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Problem is that what language is worthwhile learning as a second language?

For most countries, if they want to learn a second language, most of the time it's English as its an obvious option...but if English is your main language its very hard to find another language that is spoken globally.

For my mind, Spanish is the only real option....so why the hell brits get the option at school of learning French or German boggles the mind!