Is It Leagal To use a crafting macro as long as you are presant at the computer?

I have been reading about it being legal to do this and was just wondering if it's true.
The reason I ask this is because my account was just terminated by GOA for using a macro to craft every few seconds....

I was advancing a secondary skill from scratch so I had to press the button very frequently... at the same time im a caster and cant cary that much since what I was advancing in was armourcrafting. So what i did was create a macro that pressed a key corresponding a position in the Qbar every 3 seconds, to relieve me of some of the burdon of the running back and forth to merchant and forge and swapping the items out for orange con items.
I was at no time whatsoever afk during the use of this macro.

Sudenly while selling some of the lvl 1 gloves i had made, my game went dead, and when i tried to log back in I was preasented with the account terminated message.


Almost Immeadeatly after i logged on to rightnow. There I could see the grounds for my account termination. The grounds of my termination state that i had used a macro while being afk, which ofcoarse is not true. I replied right away with a message saying I was not afk but was told the termination still stands.
I have recently paid for 3 months and they are also refusing to refund my fees as a result of my termination..

Does this seem fair?

See GOAs Rules of Conduct
The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).

Its very clear. The act of pressing the key, clicking the mouse button (or whatever) being done manually isnt the issue. It can be automated providing your not AFK. Seems rather unlikely that GOA would terminate an account without being very sure of the circumstances though

Well I think GOA may have put their foot in it this time.....

Rules of Conduct are guide lines only and not legally binding. The EULA is, however it does not mention anything about keyboard 'pressing' macros as they are not alterations of the code or playing on internal compnents of the game software.

If the type of macro you want to use is NOT part of the game, IE 3rd party software, its illegal. Also hence why Mythic decided things like the Nostromo game pad were naughty too.

I'm not sure that you are right there becuase what is written is...

- Article in the EULA:

6. Hacks, Modifications and/or Changes to the Game
You may not use any third party software to modify the Game to change Game play. You may not use intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure.

- Article in the Rules of Conduct

A third party macro editor does not modify the game.

You could argue that it changes game play though. Still a tough break.

The EULA also states that you have to press the buttons for each and every action you do ingame. So macroing, no matter how it's done or if you're at your computer is cheating imo and should be treated accordingly.

old.Whoodoo said:

If the type of macro you want to use is NOT part of the game, IE 3rd party software, its illegal. Also hence why Mythic decided things like the Nostromo game pad were naughty too.

Click to expand...

Would that mean that Microsoft Strategic Commander is naughty too and all kinds of keybinding gadgets?

Keybinding is one thing, the nostromo macros tho, the MS thing I dont know about so cant comment.

old.Whoodoo said:

Keybinding is one thing, the nostromo macros tho, the MS thing I dont know about so cant comment.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm... Think it's quite alike actually... But it's a keybinding device mostly, or command binding if you want (instead of macro), which really doesn't make game play any different i should think, you press a button on the device instead of on the keyboard...
Nostromo: http://www.tomshardware.com/game/200403061/
MS SC: http://www.guru3d.com/review/microsoft/commander/

and this one with animists at fins4

old.Whoodoo said:

Keybinding is one thing, the nostromo macros tho, the MS thing I dont know about so cant comment.

Click to expand...

but is it? its still a part of "3:rd party programs" even tho its part of a "legal" hardware, its still macroing for "altering gameplay by using 3:rd party programs" to some extent... i mean, if Mythic/GOA is gonna be that harsh if ur at the keyboard then that should be included to imo



and before u go all defensive on me. i KNOW this is a extream example. and i KNOW theres no way they will do that, but just think about it from that point of view

Teh FnoRd said:

The EULA also states that you have to press the buttons for each and every action you do ingame. So macroing, no matter how it's done or if you're at your computer is cheating imo and should be treated accordingly.

Click to expand...

How wrong you are!
EULA states that you must be postioned at your screen, and thats all!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
It states nothing of how the buttons are to be pressed.

Seems to me GOA have done somthing very illeagal here, and if i can get the support of my family in this matter I do intend to take leagal action.

I have appealed the discission now 2 times but in the last mail I recieved from them I am told that they no longer wish to pursue any correspondence with me.

Nice establishment

Teh FnoRd said:

So macroing, no matter how it's done or if you're at your computer is cheating imo and should be treated accordingly.

Click to expand...

Ingame macroing too then?

Actually was i am thinking about is how they caught it, always thought it was a geberal consensus that macroing was damn hard to spot and they only way to do it was by trying to contact the macroer or moving him and seeing if he still kept pressing the button.

Maby GOA found some new macro uber discovery tool and we can finaly get rid of all the macro crafters to.

And it have always been pretty clear the they dont allow anyform for automatiation of the game play and not only programs but even a coin stuck into the keyboard.

And about legal action, in reality they dont really need any reason what so ever to cancel your sub, eula or coc(yeah sorry cant remember which) actually states they can cancel you at any time at their leisure.

Juj said:

How wrong you are!
EULA states that you must be postioned at your screen, and thats all!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
It states nothing of how the buttons are to be pressed.

Seems to me GOA have done somthing very illeagal here, and if i can get the support of my family in this matter I do intend to take leagal action.

I have appealed the discission now 2 times but in the last mail I recieved from them I am told that they no longer wish to pursue any correspondence with me.

Nice establishment

Click to expand...

Ok. I was wrong, altho GoA and/or Mythic havee made clear that macro crafting is NOT accepted in any way.
And look at your qoute from the EULA again please.
The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).
Human intervention is you pressing the buttons, not a macro doing it for you.

And there is nothing illeagal here. from the EULA:

10. Termination
* We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or repeatedly infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon gameplay, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game as set forth in the player rules of conduct, which are posted at address http:// http://faq.camelot-europe.com.

You have accepted the terms, live with it.

Yes I think that macrocrafting is cheating even if it's "ingame macroing"...

Yes cancel perhaps but keep my fees NO.

About how the finding out part...
Well i didnt think I was doing anything wrong so I just downloaded one of those 30 day free trial packages (Keyboard Express 3) and made a macro that repeated itself every few seconds. Perhaps it was the fact that there button was being pressed with the exact same interval ... or
Just before my account was terminated I was contacted by some guy wanting me to craft for him.. I wasnt really interested at the time so I told him no thanx, I had to craft an MP set for someone so i didnt have the time...
after that I dont remember if i put up my afk/anon sign to get rid of other would be buyers. Anyhow shortly after I got another message from the same guy asking if I would do it l8r.. I purpously didnt answer cause I had made it quite clear that I wasnt interested in a lvl 20 order and would be tied up for 1-2 days.. I had already made 2 sets that morning for other people and that had used up alot of my playing time... (GF only lets me play a certain number of hours)
Very shortly after my account was terminated... Perhaps this person was a GOA representative in disguise.

Juj said:

Yes cancel perhaps but keep my fees NO.

About how the finding out part...
Well i didnt think I was doing anything wrong so I just downloaded one of those 30 day free trial packages (Keyboard Express 3) and made a macro that repeated itself every few seconds. Perhaps it was the fact that there button was being pressed with the exact same interval ... or
Just before my account was terminated I was contacted by some guy wanting me to craft for him.. I wasnt really interested at the time so I told him no thanx, I had to craft an MP set for someone so i didnt have the time...
after that I dont remember if i put up my afk/anon sign to get rid of other would be buyers. Anyhow shortly after I got another message from the same guy asking if I would do it l8r.. I purpously didnt answer cause I had made it quite clear that I wasnt interested in a lvl 20 order and would be tied up for 1-2 days.. I had already made 2 sets that morning for other people and that had used up alot of my playing time... (GF only lets me play a certain number of hours)
Very shortly after my account was terminated... Perhaps this person was a GOA representative in disguise.

Click to expand...

To bad was really hoping for the new macro uber discovery tool

Teh FnoRd said:

Ok. The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).
Human intervention is you pressing the buttons, not a macro doing it for you.

Click to expand...

Well again I stress it says nothing of the fact that it must be done by human intervention... read carfully...

Teh FnoRd said:

Human intervention is you pressing the buttons, not a macro doing it for you.

Yes I think that macrocrafting is cheating even if it's "ingame macroing"...

Click to expand...

I'll take that paragraph you posted and made some of bold and just change the bold stuff... Watch:

The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).

Click to expand...

And I wasn't just talking about just macrocrafting, as you said

Teh FnoRd said:

So macroing, no matter how it's done or if you're at your computer is cheating imo and should be treated accordingly.

Click to expand...

which is very general, so I also thought of /macro assist /assist %t for instance..

Edit: yes, Juj. It doesn't say you have to press any buttons, as long as you are at the screen...
About how they figured you out though, I've seen some talk about it somewhere (can't remember) that they base it on the interval between the keys being pressed...

Server log:

1200:01 UserX presses key 1
1200:30 Item is made
1200:31 UserX presses key 1
1201:00 Item is made
1201:01 UserX presses key 1
1201:30 Item is made
1201:31 UserX presses key 1
1202:00 Item is made
1202:01 UserX presses key 1
1202:30 Item is made

Rinse and repeat...wtfpwnd

Normally GOA tell you what your crime was when they terminate your acc, I take it you got "3rd party program usage" or something along those lines.

sucks 2 be u >8-DDDD

About the getting caught thing...
I really didnt think I was doing somthing wrong at the time. I'm a programmer by trade and if i wanted to make somthing fullproof i could have easily done so.
I even explaind to GOA that the only reason I used this macro was becuase my GF insisted that i put my son in some clothes and got him ready for a daytrip, which ofcoarse i did while sitting at my computer table.

But they seem very cold and insensitive about this matter.

old.Whoodoo said:

Server log:

Normally GOA tell you what your crime was when they terminate your acc, I take it you got "3rd party program usage" or something along those lines.

Click to expand...

Yep thats the one...

This is what they wrote

Greetings,

We have investigated an incident of third party program abuse and found your account to be involved. The specifics are:

Character: Juj
Account: *****
Date: 22/07/2004
Details of the offence: Using a macro program to craft whilst afk.
Consequences for the account: Account terminated.

Should similar incidents occur in the future, this incident will be taken into consideration when determining the consequences.

When starting the game on the European servers of Dark Age of Camelot, you agreed to the terms of the End User License Agreement (EULA) and the rules established by the Code of Conduct.

- Article in the EULA:

6. Hacks, Modifications and/or Changes to the Game
You may not use any third party software to modify the Game to change Game play. You may not use intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the Software to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, as through server emulators. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure.

- Article in the Rules of Conduct

Legality
No illegal activity is permitted within the Dark Age of Camelot, on its site or more generally in the environment connected with the game. The encouragement of such activities or the supply of means by which such activities could be practised will not be tolerated.
It is forbidden to supply the means of access to software of an illegal and/or harmful nature (such as viruses or hacking/pirating programs).


- Article in the General Conditions:

GOA reserves the right to temporarily suspend or definitively terminate your subscription, effective immediately, in the event of:
- insolvability or expiry of your credit card. GOA wishes to point out that your account may be suspended or closed if we are unable to invoice your card if it has expired on the date you renew your subscription,;
- inability of GOA to check or authenticate the information provided at the time of subscription ;
- failure to meet any of your obligations under the present general subscription conditions;
- breach of intellectual property rights; In this respect, you acknowledge that the DAOC game contains elements protected by intellectual property rights and that GOA and/or any other supplier of its content remain the full owners of the relevant contents of the DAOC game and that you do not become the owner of these rights by downloading DAOC or by accessing your Player Account ;
- failure to respect the provisions of the DAOC Behaviour Charter, available to consult at the address http://www.camelot-europe.com.
- and more generally in the event of behaviour that GOA, at its entire discretion, judges harmful to its interests or to those of DAOC users.
In the event of the suspension of your Player Account or in the event of termination of the account by GOA for one of the reasons stated above, you lose the right to access your Player Account and the data contained in it and you will not be entitled to any reimbursement, in whole or in part.



Cheating is NOT tolerated in an online game and is not accepted on the servers of Dark Age of Camelot.

Yours sincerely,
---------------------------------------------
European Dark Age of Camelot Customer Support

Sorry.. but you cheated and got caught.

However I do have to say the punishment seams WAY over the top, maybe they have a ban policy for all breaches of EULA/CoC which seams a little harsh - simply slaping the wrist and setting ALL your trade skills back to zero would have been lesson enough.

Bad GoA.... no cookies and milk for you !!

Nxs said:

Sorry.. but you cheated and got caught.

However I do have to say the punishment seams WAY over the top, maybe they have a ban policy for all breaches of EULA/CoC which seams a little harsh - simply slaping the wrist and setting ALL your trade skills back to zero would have been lesson enough.

Bad GoA.... no cookies and milk for you !!

Click to expand...

I stiil dont see how it's cheating when you are situated at your computer.

As for reseting my Trading skills hmmm seems also unfair when i think of the time I have spent away from my family to gain those skills the hard way...

Considering how Mythic treat radar users this seem harsh yes, but then again maby GOA plans to be more severe to radar users

Juj said:

Yes cancel perhaps but keep my fees NO.

Click to expand...

Yet again something you have accepted:
* If we terminate this agreement under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the game, in which case we may provide you, with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

Juj said:

Well i didnt think I was doing anything wrong so I just downloaded one of those 30 day free trial packages (Keyboard Express 3) and made a macro that repeated itself every few seconds. Perhaps it was the fact that there button was being pressed with the exact same interval ... or

Click to expand...

omg... you just admitted that you did use a 3rd party program. lol! you just pwned yourself. don't make me quote that part too from the EULA. ^^

Aremeriel said:

I'll take that paragraph you posted and made some of bold and just change the bold stuff... Watch:


And I wasn't just talking about just macrocrafting, as you said

which is very general, so I also thought of /macro assist /assist %t for instance..

Click to expand...

Normaly you have to press a button to make an action such as crafting. I don't see your point tbh.
And I admit I generalized abit there about all macroing. (I get abit fired up about cheating ) Macroing /assist /t% is accepted by Mythic and GoA and I don't see any promblem there.

Teh FnoRd said:

The user must be positioned at his or her screen whenever his or her character performs an action that normally requires human intervention (activating a macro, issuing a command, pressing a button, etc.).
Human intervention is you pressing the buttons, not a macro doing it for you.

And there is nothing illeagal here. from the EULA:

10. Termination
* We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or repeatedly infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon gameplay, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game as set forth in the player rules of conduct, which are posted at address http:// http://faq.camelot-europe.com.

You have accepted the terms, live with it.

Yes I think that macrocrafting is cheating even if it's "ingame macroing"...

Click to expand...

Except that it does say macroing is allowed as long as you activate it and are present at the screen.

On the agreement part quoted it also says they may terminate your account when you are in breach of the agreement, not whenever they feel like it. If you don't get this sorted out you might like to send a letter/email some games magazines/TV shows. Stories about companies arbitrarily terminating accounts while pocketing the subscription fees tend to make companies rather uncomfortable (hell look at companies folding at the first sign of bad publicity on Watchdog). (Though be 100% accurate with what you say)

If GoA bring in a similar system that Mythic now has for detecting radar users it would be interesting to see if they found half the server populations using it whether they would just terminate all those people's accounts or do as Mythic did and bottle it by just handing out warnings and suspensions, before then going onto terminate. If they are going to be consistent they shouldn't hand out any warnings.