Rant Will someone please kill this bitch? :(

[Chilly]

I aint carrying one unless I feel it's more trouble to do so than not. Ie will I be able to use my credit card in sainsburies without one?

 

[dysfunction]

The more we become technologically advanced the more data will be cross referenced with other data to enable "spidering" in the data to find trends that are not normally displayed.

This is going to be a fact of life.

This is demonstrated by Supermarkets tracking peoples movements in a shopping centre using their mobile phone signals...

Yes you may not have confidence in data security of the Government but Banks have been just as idiotic with their data security....want to close your account and use your mattress?

 

[Scouse]

Well, aside from the argument that without ID cards the Nazi party wouldn't have been able to do what it did all those years ago (hence the combination of ID cards plus a centralised database being illegal in Germany), I'm against them on principle.

Our privacy and freedom is not something the government gets to subvert of its own volition. In a democracy the government is not a master of the people - it is servant of the people. It doesn't get to treat us all as criminals by creating a massive database with intensely personal and private information of every law-abiding citizen. It certainly doesn't get to criminalise its citizens because they won't willingly give up this information.

These are the actions of a facist state.


I can argue until I'm blue in the face about individual portions of the legislation. I can come up with cogent arguments that prove that the ID cards are more of a threat to us as citizens than terrorists ever will be, but it's fairly pointless. The point of principle above is the most effective reason.

Without ID cards the government (effectively) lives in fear of its people whilst with ID cards we live in fear of our government.

 

[dysfunction]

Well, aside from the argument that without ID cards the Nazi party wouldn't have been able to do what it did all those years ago...

erm...I seriously doubt that!

And besides it is compulsory for all Germans to possess either an identity card or a passport...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Godwins law has ben envoked, all hail godwins!

 

[Damini]

Well, aside from the argument that without ID cards the Nazi party wouldn't have been able to do what it did all those years ago (hence the combination of ID cards plus a centralised database being illegal in Germany), I'm against them on principle.

Our privacy and freedom is not something the government gets to subvert of its own volition. In a democracy the government is not a master of the people - it is servant of the people. It doesn't get to treat us all as criminals by creating a massive database with intensely personal and private information of every law-abiding citizen. It certainly doesn't get to criminalise its citizens because they won't willingly give up this information.

These are the actions of a facist state.


I can argue until I'm blue in the face about individual portions of the legislation. I can come up with cogent arguments that prove that the ID cards are more of a threat to us as citizens than terrorists ever will be, but it's fairly pointless. The point of principle above is the most effective reason.

Without ID cards the government (effectively) lives in fear of its people whilst with ID cards we live in fear of our government.

*applaud*

 

[Chilly]

The more we become technologically advanced the more data will be cross referenced with other data to enable "spidering" in the data to find trends that are not normally displayed.

This is going to be a fact of life.

This is demonstrated by Supermarkets tracking peoples movements in a shopping centre using their mobile phone signals...

Yes you may not have confidence in data security of the Government but Banks have been just as idiotic with their data security....want to close your account and use your mattress?

The bank example isnt quite comparable though. We can quite easily choose which bank to use and we might base that decision on data leakages. Choosing a government, however, is a lot more difficult.

 

[Scouse]

erm...I seriously doubt that!

And besides it is compulsory for all Germans to possess either an identity card or a passport...

You can doubt it all you like but it doesn't make you right.

And I know it's compulsory for all Germans to possess ID. That's why I said:

the combination of ID cards plus a centralised database being illegal in Germany

Do you just read others posts but not think about them before replying?

 

[Sparx]

Well said scouse

 

[dysfunction]

You can doubt it all you like but it doesn't make you right.

And I know it's compulsory for all Germans to possess ID. That's why I said:




Do you just read others posts but not think about them before replying?

I dont think your original post said that but you have edited it so I can't prove it.
Doesnt make your statement about the Nazi party wouldn't have been able to do what it did right either...

Yes I did think about others posts...what of it?

 

[nath]

Dys, maybe you could give a reason as to why you think we should have ID cards, and more to the point, why they should be compulsory?

 

[dysfunction]

The bank example isnt quite comparable though. We can quite easily choose which bank to use and we might base that decision on data leakages. Choosing a government, however, is a lot more difficult.

Banks are run by people. People make mistakes. Chances are at some point your valuable data will be subject to a data leakage.

Dys, maybe you could give a reason as to why you think we should have ID cards, and more to the point, why they should be compulsory?

I just feel they are a very important way to prove who you are when you need to. We had/have them in South Africa and there are no issues and I found mine very useful when I lived there.

More countries than not have compulsory ID cards. They have no problems with them.

 

[nath]

Other countries not having a problem with them isn't a reason *for* something. I've never had a problem proving who I am, so why should I be forced to have an ID card if I don't want one? You've not put anything in your response other than why they might be nice to have, not why they should be compulsory.

 

[Scouse]

I dont think your original post said that but you have edited it so I can't prove it.

I edited it because I made a slur about your level of education that I thought was childish and uncalled for.

Consider it reinstated

 

[dysfunction]

I edited it because I made a slur about your level of education that I thought was childish and uncalled for.

Consider it reinstated

ok...that's nice to know.

Thanks for that. You seem like to try and provoke me...

 

[dysfunction]

Other countries not having a problem with them isn't a reason *for* something. I've never had a problem proving who I am, so why should I be forced to have an ID card if I don't want one? You've not put anything in your response other than why they might be nice to have, not why they should be compulsory.

I think they would help against identity theft and help prevent fraud.

 

[nath]

How so? Plus, aren't you concerned it could make identity theft even more severe? The more powerful the ID device the more someone can fuck you over when they forge it.

 

[dysfunction]

Because you would need that unique piece of information on the ID card to Open a bank account, get a job, claim benefits etc that would be much harder to get hold of than a bank statement and utility bill...

 

[old.user4556]

These are the actions of a facist state.

Tell me more....

 

[nath]

Fair enough. However, given the sheer volume of misplaced data fuckups by the government in recent years, do you not think they simply lack the capacity to manage such a massive thing effectively?

 

[Scouse]

I think they would help against identity theft and help prevent fraud.

They'll make it worse. And I think you'll agree that's an authoritative source.

European governments have effectively forced their citizens to adopt new international Machine Readable Travel Documents (MRTDs) which dramatically decrease security and privacy and increase the risk of identity theft

And that's just the new passports.

But, as I said, it's all guff. What I said in my original post stands. Facist or non-facist government in Britain. You choose.

Me? I'll go to jail before I voluntarily pony up my iris-scans or fingerprints. Therefore the government will make me a criminal.

I'm not trying to bait you Dys. Just in my 10-month incapacitation I've studied rather than just play CS and piss my intellect up the wall. ID has been one of my big reads...

 

[tris-]

is it definate that they will be compulsory?
i remember hearing or reading something that said they changed them to voluntary.

im against them if theyre compulsory but then how would they even enforce that? if 65 million people said "im not having it", what are the government going to do? put us all in prison? ship us to australia? kill anyone who wont take it up?

i dont think its possible to make it compulsory. even if 10,000 people said no, what wil the government do about it?

so i guess what id like to know is how they can enforce a scheme on tens of millions of people if all of them say no.

 

[Bahumat]

I think it would be handy for kids who want to get into clubs or buy alcohol because it saves them getting passports or other ID cards which can sometimes be refused. Also if they were 'free', it may help people who are involved in car accidents. The Ambulance/Police could identify the person and contact their parents/family

 

[Scouse]

/sigh

Piss your freedoms up the wall for the ability for police to do a job they already have no problems with then...

 

[Damini]

is it definate that they will be compulsory?
i remember hearing or reading something that said they changed them to voluntary.

im against them if theyre compulsory but then how would they even enforce that? if 65 million people said "im not having it", what are the government going to do? put us all in prison? ship us to australia? kill anyone who wont take it up?

i dont think its possible to make it compulsory. even if 10,000 people said no, what wil the government do about it?

so i guess what id like to know is how they can enforce a scheme on tens of millions of people if all of them say no.

They'll do what they're going to do with the car tracking scheme. Introduce it in limited areas as a trial, with only volunteers taking part. Because they are volunteers, they'll be people who don't object whole heartedly to the system. They'll get feedback, proving that most people thought the scheme worked. They'll then introduce it officially in that area, making it easier to crackdown on the people that refuse, because there will be less of them, and they will make an example of them to scare people off that may follow suit. Then they will role it out across the rest of the country in stages.

I'm guessing with the ID card they'll make them voluntary at first, and then make them necessary for certain things like getting a passport, or opening a bank account, and then for people in certain jobs, or for getting NHS treatment, and it will be a case of slowly herding those that object into a corner.

I could just be wildly paranoid though

 

[Ch3tan]

I think it would be handy for kids who want to get into clubs or buy alcohol because it saves them getting passports or other ID cards which can sometimes be refused. Also if they were 'free', it may help people who are involved in car accidents. The Ambulance/Police could identify the person and contact their parents/family

What? There are two types of photo ID that are accepted to prove your age, passports and driving licences. Other forms of ID may be refused, and you have to remember, most clubs may refuse someone on principle, they do not have to serve you just because you are old enough.

 

[dysfunction]

I'm not trying to bait you Dys. Just in my 10-month incapacitation I've studied rather than just play CS and piss my intellect up the wall. ID has been one of my big reads...

And that bit isnt baiting me? :lol:

All I'm saying is I think all this "bad press" about the ID card system is scare mongering and they are not as bad as everyone thinks they are.

You may think Iv'e pissed my intellect up the wall and thats fine...

Ive lived in a country with an ID system for 26 years. I dont have a problem with them and thats all I'm saying.

 

[Bahumat]

What? There are two types of photo ID that are accepted to prove your age, passports and driving licences. Other forms of ID may be refused, and you have to remember, most clubs may refuse someone on principle, they do not have to serve you just because you are old enough.

Not everyone drives and not everyone has a passport. I remember being 18 with no driving license and i did not have a passport as I was on my parents if memory serves.

I don't think we should have to pay for this. That was one of the reasons I mentioned young people and ID. For a passport you have to pay around £70?

 

[Ch3tan]

Bahu, a passport or provisional is easy to get and does not require that you put all your personal data in one place, in the hands of contractors, with all and sundry able to access it.

Ask yourself why it is necessary for all this info to be centralised, to pay a lot of money to set it up and maintain it, and for it to be forced on use when the system we currently have is fine?

You still need a passport to travel, so an ID card will not excuse you from having to pay for one.

 

[djpringle]

You still need a passport to travel, so an ID card will not excuse you from having to pay for one.

We will also still need a driving license so the only people who would possibly benefit would be the people who don't have either...but as soon as they get one of the others it's redundant...

As for the ID's for students and people on marriage visas they get biometrically scanned at the relevant consulate/embassy anyway and pay a hefty visa fee...an ID card actually does bugger all extra for them.

Waste of time since Johnny terrorist could just get a standard 'visit' visa and bypass all this ID card bollocks...